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Question about Tubular tires

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Question about Tubular tires

Old 02-20-17, 12:13 AM
  #1  
ruirui
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Question about Tubular tires

hi all, i just picked up this set today.

Reynolds 72 Aero Carbon Wheelset - Tubular

this is my first tubular wheelset. i've also picked up glue for it as well.

for the tubular tires.. once inflated.. are they the same width? meaning 700x23 is 23mm wide or more like clinchers where Conti GP4K2 23mm is like 25mm wide?

reason i ask is because of the spec:
Rim Width external 26.2 mm, internal 16 mm

thanks in advance.
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Old 02-20-17, 12:29 AM
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depends on the brand and the pressure you inflate the tires. since there is no wall the re is a bit more room fro expansion on tubulars.
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Old 02-20-17, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by roca rule View Post
depends on the brand and the pressure you inflate the tires. since there is no wall the re is a bit more room fro expansion on tubulars.
I was thinking either go with 23mm Veloflex Carbon or Vittoria Corsa G+
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Old 02-20-17, 01:20 AM
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How does a tubular rim have an internal rim dimension?
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Old 02-20-17, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
How does a tubular rim have an internal rim dimension?
Not sure
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Old 02-20-17, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by ruirui View Post
I was thinking either go with 23mm Veloflex Carbon or Vittoria Corsa G+
Both excellent choices, though I prefer the veloflex slightly. I also run either of these in the next size up (25 mm).
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Old 02-20-17, 07:29 AM
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Perhaps inner rim width is the width between the inside of the vertical walls. You can't see it, but it is there. Does it matter? I can't see how.

As far as tire width is concerned, there is something you should be aware of. So you would think you can ride tubulars at lower pressure than clinchers because they can't pinch flat if underinflated. But you do have to be careful you don't lower the pressure so much that the rim isn't protected against bottoming out on a bump and being damaged.

Another thing, and it is not immediately obvious to most people: the contained air volume of a tubular is lower than the contained air volume of a same-sized clincher or tubeless tire, because the open channel between the braking surfaces in the clincher rim does not exist in the tubular. Whereas the tube in a clincher setup deforms and fill up that channel when inflated, the shape of the tubular tube never changes except for a very slight swelling with the pressure. The channel is included in the tubeless tire with no tube involved. But the tubular tire stays perfectly round as it sits up on top of the rim.

According to my discussion about it with Vittoria that difference in behavior makes the air volume of a tubular about one common size smaller than the air volume of the same nominal size clincher. So a 25 mm tubular has about as much air in it at a given pressure as a 23 mm clincher, not as a 25 mm clincher. When you are deciding about inflation pressures, you can subtract some for riding a tubular, but you also need to add some back considering the air volume difference in order to protect the rims. I just ride my tubulars and clinchers at the same pressure. Tubeless tires also allow you to reduce air pressure because of the lack of pinch flat risk, but tubeless clinchers do not have the reduced air volume compared to tubed clinchers. One can justify a real inflation difference between same sizes of those two types of tires.

Sorry if you are confused by this. It requires some study.
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Old 02-20-17, 12:54 PM
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In the for what it is worth category, I use Tufo tubulars and tape. I run their 700 x 25 Elite tires. Super comfortable. The tape works fine for me. I used glue for many years and am not afraid of it but prefer the put it on and ride it convenience of tape. When I used glue, I always followed the "let it cure for 24 hours" rule after mounting them. For the OP, I would advocate using some of the liquid sealant in your tires. Pit Stop, Tufo, etc.
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Old 02-21-17, 12:52 AM
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to the op vittoria's run a bit smaller than their advertised width at pressures 90-100psi. I have not used veliflex tubulars.
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Old 02-21-17, 01:21 AM
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Thank you all. I went with Veloflex Carbon 23mm. Reynolds replied using either 23 or 25mm is fine on Aero72. I also bought glue and valve extender as well.

As for the sealant, I heard Tufu Extreme is pretty good, likewise with Vittoria pit stop. Do you fill it up after installing the tubular or wait till there's a flat to use it?
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Old 02-21-17, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
How does a tubular rim have an internal rim dimension?
Originally Posted by ruirui View Post
Not sure


This is where we have gotten to. *sigh* but the bright side is it's a good opportunity for people to learn.

No - tubulars don't have an internal rim dimension - that's used by clinchers in a way to help determine how well tubeless will work - because tubeless still sucks. (flame away)

Tubulars are a sewn together casing (or molded) that works as 1 piece a completely inclosed tire. Inflate it and while the casing can stretch a small amount it can't stretch that much. So the width of the tubular is the same no matter what rim you put it on. The rim is just where you glue it.

You can in fact inflate a tubular to its max pressure without it even being mounted on to anything. shocking, right?

Like all tires - the sizes on the sidewall are not really what they are in real life when inflated....BUT.....tubulars are closer than clinchers are by a large margin.

I saw Veloflex on here somewhere. They measure pretty close. They are also super supple and prone to flats. If you are using them all the time and you are not using their training tire then just be expecting the flats.

No you don't run sealant in a tubular. You "CAN" do it but the mechanics are different. The VAST MAJORITY of tubulars out there run an innertube inside of the casing. Just like a real tire (clincher). When you flat you are actually puncturing the tube inside the casing.

The sealant will try and seal the tube but that hardly ever works. If it did we would be running the sealant inside of our innertubes all the time. We don't. We replace the tube when it flats or run sealant in tubeless systems.

If you run a Clement LGG - that is a TUBELESS TUBULAR. That means it has no innertube inside of the tubular casing. In that situation sealant can be used and often will solve your flat.

Of course no one has to take my word for it. I simply glue up roughly 300 tubulars annually, have OEM accounts with most of the tubular manufacturers and constantly run race support and have learned from direct experience over the years.
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Old 02-21-17, 01:01 PM
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Tubular tires are made to the same exacting adherence to dimensions as clincher tires. (Well maybe a touch less since there is sewing involved.)

Now if you can find those exacting standards, tell us about them! My theory is that they are in a vault under the Siberian tundra.

An example of that tight adherence: my 35c Paselas are much wider than my 37c Continental Ice tires. (No help to you but just trying to show the industry patterns.) For me, that is actually rather convenient. Ice happens seldom. The ice tires never just happen to be on the bike when ice happens. Switching and throwing the wheels on is easy. I never have to mess with fenders even with the new ice tread.)

I believe as a whole Continentals run small. I think Vittorias run a touch small and Paselas maybe a touch large. (Haven't pulled out the calipers. And it would be only meaningful to measure all the tires at the same "ages", ie same number of days after mounting and inflating, as they stretch over time. New would be the easiest to measure but after a month or two is closer to want you really want to know.

Edit: Having written this, I defer to Psimet2001. I haven't used tubulars in years and when I did, if you said you were running a 23c tire, people would have looked at you and said "What's 23c?". We never knew or cared what width we were running, just were they fat, normal or skinny tires. And we didn't even think in those terms. You could run Clement Seta Extra (skinny and expensive), Seta (normal road race tires), Paris Roubaix or Vittoria cheap cottons (normal width) or Del Mondo (fat). We all knew what you were talking about and numbers were never used.

Ben

Last edited by 79pmooney; 02-21-17 at 01:22 PM.
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Old 02-21-17, 01:14 PM
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Strange, I run orange seal in my veloflex tubulars. I have punctured numerous times and it sealed.
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Old 02-21-17, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post


This is where we have gotten to. *sigh* but the bright side is it's a good opportunity for people to learn.

No - tubulars don't have an internal rim dimension - that's used by clinchers in a way to help determine how well tubeless will work - because tubeless still sucks. (flame away)

Tubulars are a sewn together casing (or molded) that works as 1 piece a completely inclosed tire. Inflate it and while the casing can stretch a small amount it can't stretch that much. So the width of the tubular is the same no matter what rim you put it on. The rim is just where you glue it.

You can in fact inflate a tubular to its max pressure without it even being mounted on to anything. shocking, right?

Like all tires - the sizes on the sidewall are not really what they are in real life when inflated....BUT.....tubulars are closer than clinchers are by a large margin.

I saw Veloflex on here somewhere. They measure pretty close. They are also super supple and prone to flats. If you are using them all the time and you are not using their training tire then just be expecting the flats.

No you don't run sealant in a tubular. You "CAN" do it but the mechanics are different. The VAST MAJORITY of tubulars out there run an innertube inside of the casing. Just like a real tire (clincher). When you flat you are actually puncturing the tube inside the casing.

The sealant will try and seal the tube but that hardly ever works. If it did we would be running the sealant inside of our innertubes all the time. We don't. We replace the tube when it flats or run sealant in tubeless systems.

If you run a Clement LGG - that is a TUBELESS TUBULAR. That means it has no innertube inside of the tubular casing. In that situation sealant can be used and often will solve your flat.

Of course no one has to take my word for it. I simply glue up roughly 300 tubulars annually, have OEM accounts with most of the tubular manufacturers and constantly run race support and have learned from direct experience over the years.
The internal rim width was listed here: Reynolds 72 Aero Carbon Wheelset - Tubular | Competitive Cyclist. Perhaps in error, perhaps it's useful for something.
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Old 02-21-17, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
Tubular tires are made to the same exacting adherence to dimensions as clincher tires. (Well maybe a touch less since there is sewing involved.)

Now if you can find those exacting standards, tell us about them! My theory is that they are in a vault under the Siberian tundra.

An example of that tight adherence: my 35c Paselas are much wider than my 37c Continental Ice tires. (No help to you but just trying to show the industry patterns.) For me, that is actually rather convenient. Ice happens seldom. The ice tires never just happen to be on the bike when ice happens. Switching and throwing the wheels on is easy. I never have to mess with fenders even with the new ice tread.)

I believe as a whole Continentals run small. I think Vittorias run a touch small and Paselas maybe a touch large. (Haven't pulled out the calipers. And it would be only meaningful to measure all the tires at the same "ages", ie same number of days after mounting and inflating, as they stretch over time. New would be the easiest to measure but after a month or two is closer to want you really want to know.

Edit: Having written this, I defer to Psimet2001. I haven't used tubulars in years and when I did, if you said you were running a 23c tire, people would have looked at you and said "What's 23c?". We never knew or cared what width we were running, just were they fat, normal or skinny tires. And we didn't even think in those terms. You could run Clement Seta Extra (skinny and expensive), Seta (normal road race tires), Paris Roubaix or Vittoria cheap cottons (normal width) or Del Mondo (fat). We all knew what you were talking about and numbers were never used.

Ben
My Continental Competitions measure at 22.02mm (700x22c), bang on, on my Zipp 4040 tubs.
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Old 02-21-17, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by robabeatle View Post
Strange, I run orange seal in my veloflex tubulars. I have punctured numerous times and it sealed.
Not impossible just not as likely to happen as it is using a tubeless tubular setup. IMHO Orange is a better sealant than most that people use and I have had better luck with it so not completely surprised.

Many still run sealant in their cross tubulars that run latex innertubes as well. Sometimes it works - sometimes it doesn't.

In the end though you are sealing an innertube - not the tire. It would be like running sealant in a tube in a regular clincher setup. The fun part is when it doesn't work and then all the sealant comes out through the sidewalls around the entire casing as most casings are not air tight. fun stuff.
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Old 02-21-17, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by dalava View Post
The internal rim width was listed here: Reynolds 72 Aero Carbon Wheelset - Tubular | Competitive Cyclist. Perhaps in error, perhaps it's useful for something.
That's a gluing surface dimension. Not an actual internal width. Like with a zipp - they can run 25-28mm wide at their widest point but the actual gluing surface is still only 16-17mm. This works OK with road tubulars but becomes a weak point with cross tubulars -> thuys why a lot of top teams running Zipp crackers will "Belgian Tape" them.
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Old 02-21-17, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ruirui View Post
Thank you all. I went with Veloflex Carbon 23mm. Reynolds replied using either 23 or 25mm is fine on Aero72. I also bought glue and valve extender as well.

As for the sealant, I heard Tufu Extreme is pretty good, likewise with Vittoria pit stop. Do you fill it up after installing the tubular or wait till there's a flat to use it?
I wait for a flat. That way, it doesn't dry out over time before you really need it. The one time I have used it, it worked...and is still working.
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Old 02-23-17, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
I wait for a flat. That way, it doesn't dry out over time before you really need it. The one time I have used it, it worked...and is still working.
+1 - also Vittoria Pitstop is really designed to repair a tubular flat on a ride - not really as a preventive sealant. The tubeless stuff is better at preventative.
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Old 02-23-17, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ruirui View Post
reason i ask is because of the spec:
Rim Width external 26.2 mm, internal 16 mm
A quick glance at the Reynolds website solves this mystery.

https://www.reynoldscycling.com/wheels/72_Aero

They make both clincher and tubular versions of this wheel and the inner width is for the clincher version. The clincher rim is on the left. No need to make up facts.

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Old 02-27-17, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by gl98115 View Post
A quick glance at the Reynolds website solves this mystery.

...



Based on that you'll be fine with 23-25
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Old 02-27-17, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
+1 - also Vittoria Pitstop is really designed to repair a tubular flat on a ride - not really as a preventive sealant. The tubeless stuff is better at preventative.




For years I have used Vittoria tubulars with a little caffelatex sealant as preventative, it does work.
I did a long ride near camp David, with lots of bad roads and debris after a storm, on a well used Pave rear tire that was showing threads in some places. After the ride there were quite a few spots of moisture where the water part of the sealant was seeping out, the latex part was still inside patching.
They mention that it works in tubulars 1-2 years
Caffélatex - Effetto Mariposa


I also carry their espresso repair co2, the equivalent of Vittoria Pitstop. That saved a ride once after I hit a big rock and the tube developed a slow leak
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Old 02-27-17, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
Not impossible just not as likely to happen as it is using a tubeless tubular setup. IMHO Orange is a better sealant than most that people use and I have had better luck with it so not completely surprised.

Many still run sealant in their cross tubulars that run latex innertubes as well. Sometimes it works - sometimes it doesn't.

In the end though you are sealing an innertube - not the tire. It would be like running sealant in a tube in a regular clincher setup. The fun part is when it doesn't work and then all the sealant comes out through the sidewalls around the entire casing as most casings are not air tight. fun stuff.
Squid dealer, eh? I use the Tufo sealant in my tubulars and it works really well. I usually put it in when first mounting but some times I just carry it with me and add it when flatting out. It sealed a hold from a finish nail.
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Old 02-28-17, 12:52 PM
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I've been riding tubulars for most of the time over packed gravel and pavement on 300 gram rims. For 40 years. My advice:

Glue: Vittoria Mastik in the tins.

Tires: Whatever has butyl tubes and removable valve cores. Conti Sprinters and Tufo 33s.

Sealant: yes: 20cc of Stan's pre-injected in the rear tire. Makes the tires almost impenetrable. Fronts get a lot fewer flats.

Tire size: tubulars have more useful internal air volume than clinchers. The air between the braking tracks on clinchers does nothing. So I figure that a 23mm tubular has as much useful cushioning volume as a 25mm clincher. In any case, I've been riding 22-23mm tubulars over packed gravel at 80psi for years without problems.

Rim width: don't worry about it - the fatter rim fad/trend is a only a clincher thing. The reasons for this follow from this logic:
  1. Lower tire pressures are more comfortable,
  2. But you can't ride these pressures on clinchers due to the risk of pinch flats,
  3. Therefore, we'll ride on fatter tires,
  4. But fatter tires require fatter rims,
  5. Unfortunately, fatter rims and tires are heavier and less aero. Oh well....

But again, this is purely a clincher thing, and all arises due to the inherent and insurmountable disadvantages of the clincher rim profile.

On tubulars, you can ride on smaller tires at lower pressures, and not have to worry about pinch flats.
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Old 02-28-17, 01:02 PM
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Sometimes I do training rides on my cross tubulars, and I carry a little can of Vittoria Pit Stop in case I flat. It just dawned on me that I have no idea how to even use it.

I'm assuming I just squirt some in the valve, and then add air via co2 canister? Do I need to wait before adding air?
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