jeffrbake

I have been looking at getting some new wheels for my bike. One thing that I have been having trouble figuring out is if it is worth building or just buying a wheel set?

Here are some details:
- I am trying to find the best balance between price and quality. Not so much worried about weight - I would rather save $100 and add 400g.
- Bike is using disc breaks
- Time is not a cost factor
- Rider weight max 170 pounds

Why I think building is the way to go:
- Better idea of build quality and components
- Easier to maintain
- Better compatibility. You get to cherry pick the parts.
- Color matching to your bike
- It COULD be cost effective??

I am not asking for the "best" parts, rather the "best" brands to look for that tend to give good value for price. That said, if you do have a particular part you found worked great, do share!

Another post on the forum mentioned these parts. Would this recommendation still be good?
Hubs: Ultegra
Spokes: Sapim X-Ray
Rims: Veloctiy Deep-V
(My main reason for this post is that I have NO idea on the technology turnaround for bike parts. I come from a tech profession, where something cutting edge six months ago could be garbage at present time.)

From discussion below, while I would need to get a truing stand and tensionmeter, I plan to do it all. These are both items that I would be getting anyway.

Thanks!

---- EDIT ---- Answer to some questions by joejack951. Thought it would be useful to quote them here.

Chandne

I have several wheel sets and all but one are handbuilt. I usually used DT240s and CK Rays/Sprints but my last one was Chris King R45. at 175, I prefer 24x28. My favorite set is the CK R45+ CX Ray/Sprint combo in 24x28 with DT 440 rims but I'd use the 411 next time. I have also Pacentli SL23 and NOX carbon on two others, plus American Classic Argent Disc Tubeless on one (good disc wheels).

The R45 wheelset is my favorite since it feels the best- slightly springy and stiff...could be that the BMC is a unique frame. Anyway, I favor DT240 and CK hubs plus DT rims, though I also like the HED rims a lot. This is all I will build around now.

Chandne

Oh wait, I forgot about the Dura Ace hubs. I like them a lot...quiet and dependable. I like quiet unless it is the Chris King buzz...which I like. I don't like the I9 or White Industries hub noises so I avoid them now. So I'd use Dura Ace too...they spin well and are easy to maintain. I don't know much about Ultegra but I bet they are solid too. I would use DA over Ultegra though. Spokes- DT or Sapim.

jeffrbake

Good information, thanks. You mention DT 440/411 rims. Those are both asymmetric. Do asymmetric rims allow you to use the same length spoke on both sides, and have even tension? I ask because I have seen some tutorials for wheel building in which they purposefully choose shorter spokes for the disk side to, I believe, account for this.

I assume that when done, asymmetric rims sit in the middle like normal symmetric rims?

therhodeo

What is your intended type of riding?

jeffrbake

Exercise/long rides to explore/some commuting. I may get into some smaller road races in the future, but that is not my current goal (I intend to start training for this later this year).

I would say the longest ride I will be taking any time soon would be less than 70 miles. I currently do 10-15 miles for a quick workout.

Road conditions here are fair, with a couple of neighborhoods having bad (old) roads - but those are traversed without much issue.

joejack951

Start by telling us what you have and why you want to replace it. Then post a budget. Then do more research about building a wheel and see if it's really something you want to take on yourself. And by building, I mean going all the way from assembling to final truing and tensioning. Simply assembling then handing the wheel off to some unknown at a LBS is likely to net you a wheel worse than something you could have bought preassembled. Most LBS are not known for their wheel building abilities. And any LBS that claims they'll true and tension your entire wheel for $15 is one I'd never hand any wheel of mine.

jeffrbake

joejack951 - to answer your questions:
- Why to replace/what I have:
-- Current Wheel: I am currently using the stock wheels that came with the bike. They are ok, but in the sub $200 wheel set category. Nothing to write home about.
-- Why Replace: Honestly, the number 1 reason is to have the old set as a backup. Besides that, it looks quite fun, and I want a project.
- Budget:
-- I am hoping to keep the TOTAL cost to below $550 for both wheels. I can go higher than this, it just means I will spend a bit longer getting all of the parts.
- Do I really want to take on the task of building a wheel:
-- I am mechanically inclined. Watching a few videos on how it is done, it looks very fun to me. And I really mean fun.
- LBS not known for wheel building abilities:
-- I know a couple of people at my LBS that are VERY good at truing a wheel. They are the ones who are actually going to be teaching me how to do it myself once I get the equipment. $15 is a discounted price. It is per wheel - my first post was ambiguous in that regard. I could always wait to use the wheel until I learn to do it myself as well. Because my current wheels are not broken, I am in no huge rush to build them and slap them on the bike.

Chandne

Both the 411 and 40 have sym and asym versions so most use asym at the back to get even spoke tension. So getting spoke tension even is the key, at the back especially. This is not an issue in the front and people use sym rims there. A good build or builder is important. I do not build wheels myself. I have a great local builder whose wheels have ben proven very stiff/springy and durable, rarely needing touching up.

joejack951

Ok, but are they are 6 bolt or centerlock disc mount? Are they quick release or thru axle? No one can recommend hubs without having that info. What do they weigh? How many spokes? How much are you willing to tradeoff weight for lower spoke count? A $550 budget is plenty healthy for this project. I spent slightly less than that building my new set of disc wheels with carbon fiber rims.


Truing a wheel /= building a good wheel. There is a bit of an art to getting the true, dish, and tension all correct on a wheel. There is also the need to use a tensionmeter and take a decent amount of time to do it right. If your LBS charges $75/hour normally for labor, $15 is 12 minutes worth, maybe 30 in your case. Unless they build a lot of wheels, 30 minutes will be a rushed job for completing the truing and tensioning from a wheel that has only been assembled.

If you think it looks like fun (and I agree it is fun, though slightly stressful at times for myself because I so rarely do it), plan to do it yourself. Get a stand and tensionmeter (my Park TM-1 has never let me down). Find a good spoke length calculator, or just download Spocalc, and learn how to use it. Have fun researching hub, spoke, and rim options that meet your budget. Then have at it. Worst case you need to disassemble it all and rebuild (like I did on my first ever wheel).

joejack951

An asymmetric rim will not get you 'even' tension on both sides. You'll get closer, though. I got something like 80% of DS tension on my NDS using an asymmetric rim and building a rim brake wheel. A rear disc brake wheel will do slightly better, perhaps 85%. And FWIW, given that a front disc wheel is dish to accommodate the rotor mount, if you really want equal (or pretty close to equal) tension on both sides, you can build with an asymmetric rim there, too. I built my commuter's front disc wheel using the same asymmetric rim as the rear and had ~90% of non-disc side tension on the disc side. In contrast, the front disc wheel I just built with a standard rim has more like 70%.

Chandne

Yeah sorry, I meant to say that getting as close to even is the key. I think it is more important with alloy rims...maybe because carbon rims are a lot stiffer so do not unload/deflect as much? With carbon rims, angled spoke holes is nice to have, from what I hear from the guys who build a lot. I have some disc wheels too- one carbon and one alloy. The carbon NOX is significantly stiffer and I put it on my cross/gravel bike. At 170 lbs, I'd still go with a 24x28 build. 20x24 is at the edge but I keep being told to stick with (at 175) 24x28 and the wheels definitely feel stable on fast downhills and hard turns.

jeffrbake

Ha - can't believe I forgot to mention that.
- 6 bolt disk mount
- Quick release
- Weight: I actually do not know this, but being the hub, weight is not of the highest concern correct? As it spins in the very middle, the actually effect of its weight pails in comparison to the rest of the wheel. If this is true, all I am concerned with is a good brand vs the weight of the actual hub.
- Spoke Count: I am pretty open to this. I am not above 200 pounds, and this is a road bike, so I know I can drop into a lower spoke count without worrying about strength too much. I think my first task would be to find the rim I want to use, as I do believe that most hubs come in multiple configurations? So far I think I am leaning towards 32 spokes, or around there.

On the note about carbon fiber rims, I had read in multiple places that carbon fiber wheels sub 1k (prebuilt) are often not very good. Does this change when you build it yourself? If so, could you like the rims you did use?

Good point. Taking your comments into mind, it may very well be worth taking the time and doing all steps myself. Thanks for the software reference, I will take a look at it.

Just want to be clear (as I did not see the answer in a previous post). If using Asymmetric rims, do I use the same length spokes on both sides, or would I need to still get one side shorter?
If you can just use the same length, would attempting to use a shorter spoke on the disc side (if done correctly) further help get "even" tension on both sides?

Defyme

You may want to consider Boyd disc brake carbon wheels (clincher/tubeless) with White Industries Hubs. I have their 44mm disc brake carbon clinchers with Boyd hubs and really like them a lot. Boyd uses Sapim CXRay spokes and have multiple color decal options.

WhyFi

For $550? I'll take two pair!

joejack951

A couple things, I should have been more specific in asking about rotor mount. It isn't so much what you have now as what you want to use for the next build. Keep in mind that disc mounts are not standardized so expect to either adjust your calipers to swap wheels or shim the mounts to match.

Most rims and hubs are available in 24, 28, and 32 holes. Some go to 20 or 36 holes, too.

I was asking about total wheel weight, not hub. Knowing that will give you a target to beat at least. And you'll get a better sense of the tradeoffs of spending more or less or using more or less spokes.

I am using UAM AR-40T rims, purchased through my frame vendor, Hong Fu. Most of the issues with carbon fiber rims come down to using them with caliper brakes. Not a concern of mine. They built up pretty nicely. Would have been nice if the spoke holes were angled.

The tension imbalance is a result of the wheel 'dish' and is unavoidable (other than by using an asymmetric rim to offset some of it). Because of the thickness of the cassette on the drive side, the DS flange is pushed more toward the centerline of the rim than the NDS. The different bracing angles of the spokes creates the imbalance and different spoke lengths are necessary simply due to the geometry.

gsindela

check out prowheelbuilder.com. Great site for wheel building.

jeffrbake

I was under the impression that most 6bolt mounts tend to be pretty interchangeable? Even if this is not true, I don't think that would be the biggest issue. I currently have an adapter on both calipers that allows for left and right movement. I just purchased some TRP Spyre calipers.

Goal would be sub 800 grams, as close to 700 grams as I can get within reason (per wheel). (This would beet my current wheel) - no tire no disc rotor.

I got it, thanks! I figured this was the case.

gsindela

Here is a sample build from prowheelbuilder.com that might work for you or at least give you a place to start (I have no affiliation with the site, just happen to like it):

FRONT WHEEL SUMMARY
Drillings
24
Rim
KINLIN XR22 FRONT 700C BLACK RIM $68.00
700c/29er
Tubeless Tape and Valve for 1 wheel Installed + $11.00
Hub
BITEX RAF 12 FRONT BLACK HUB $54.78
QR 100mm
*No Bearing Upgrade
Salsa Stainless Black Single QUICK RELEASE ONLY NO THRU AXLE + $22.00
Spokes
SAPIM CX RAY J BEND BLACK BLADED 14 X 21 X 14G OR 2.2 X 0.9MM SPOKES $3.10
Lacing Pattern
Two Cross
Nipples
SAPIM POLYAX 14MM 14 GAUGE BLACK ALLOY NIPPLE $0.34
Weight
636.888 grams
Price
$238.34

REAR WHEEL SUMMARY
Drillings
28
Rim
KINLIN XR22 REAR 700C BLACK RIM $68.00
700c/29er
Tubeless Tape and Valve for 1 wheel Installed + $11.00
Hub
BITEX RAR 12 REAR BLACK HUB $101.81
QR 130mm
*Shimano/SRAM 8,9,10 or 11spd
*No Bearing Upgrade
Salsa Stainless Black Single QUICK RELEASE ONLY NO THRU AXLE + $22.00
Spokes
SAPIM CX RAY J BEND BLACK BLADED 14 X 21 X 14G OR 2.2 X 0.9MM SPOKES $3.10
Lacing Pattern
Three Cross
Nipples
SAPIM POLYAX 14MM 14 GAUGE BLACK ALLOY NIPPLE $0.34
Weight
780.536 grams
Price
$299.13
Total Price: $537.47
Total Weight: 1,417.42 grams

joejack951

I was impressed at the cost/weight until I realized you spec'd standard hubs and not disc hubs.

Here are my wheels: https://www.bikeforums.net/19377885-post69.html

Total cost: $532

gsindela

My bad; didn't realize he was looking for disc wheels.

joejack951

The mounts are close but not perfect. For my commuter, I have an American Classic hub front disc wheel and a Shimano XT hub front disc wheel, both 6-bolt, and I need to adjust a few clicks on my Avid BB7 caliper to swap between the two without any pad rub. I could shim them to match but I only ever swapped in the older Shimano hub wheel when a pothole hit cracked my original AC hub.

joejack951

No biggy, just wanted to make the OP aware of it mainly.

dalava

Here are two wheelset I built recently (for a gravel bike, but could also be used for road) with all the info you need:

Set 1:
Front:
Rim: Pacenti SL25 disc 24h, $60, 450g, 26mm deep, 24.5mm ext. width, 20mm int. width, 590 ERD
Hubs: DT Swiss 350 disc centerlock, $50, 135g
Spokes: Sapim Race silver (2x1.8x2), $1, 5.6g, 284mm left, 286mm right
Nipples: Sapim alloy silver, $0.34, 0.3g

Rear:
Rim: Pacenti SL25 disc 24h, $60, 450g, 26mm deep, 24.5mm ext. width, 20mm int. width, 590 ERD
Hubs: DT Swiss 350 disc centerlock, $150, 269g
Spokes: Sapim Race silver (2x1.8x2), $1, 5.6g, 285mm left, 284mm right
Nipples: Sapim alloy silver, $0.34, 0.3g

Total cost: $387
Total weight: 1624g (740g front, 884g rear)

Set 2:
Front
Rim: Easton R90SL disc 28h, ERD 580, max tension 122 KGF, (27mm depth, 24mm width, 19.5mm int. width), 445g
Hub: DT Swiss 350 disc centerlock 15x100mm thru-axle, 135g
Spokes: Sapim CX-Ray silver (0.9x2.2mm), 4.34g each
Lacing: 2x
Spoke length: 277mm left, 278mm right
Nipples: Sapim Polyax alloy silver 14mm 14 gauge silver, 0.31g each
Weight: 710.2 (calculated), 723g (actual)

Rear
Rim: Easton R90SL disc 28h, ERD 580, max tension 122 KGF, (27mm depth, 24mm width, 19.5mm int. width), 445g
Hub: DT Swiss 350 disc centerlock 12x142mm thru-axle, 269g
pokes: Sapim CX-Ray silver (0.9x2.2mm), 4.34g each
Lacing: 2x
Spoke length: 277mm left, 276mm right (drive side)
Nipples: Sapim Polyax alloy silver 14mm 14 gauge silver, 0.31geach
Weight: 844.2g (calculated), 854g (actual)

Cost:
Rims - $240
Hubs - $210
Spokes - $172
Nipples - $20
Total: $642

I got my parts (rim, hubs, etc.) from several different sources: Wiggle, eBay, Prowheelbuiler.com, etc.

jeffrbake

Thanks!
Looking through wheelbuilder, one thing that it tries to make a distinction with is front vs rear rim. There really is no difference between those two right? (Ignoring the possibility of one being asymmetric - I think I am going to make both asymmetric).