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Enve 4.5 AR tire selection - I want to keep my GP 4000 S II!

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Enve 4.5 AR tire selection - I want to keep my GP 4000 S II!

Old 04-18-17, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by noodle soup
what frameset is that?
GT Grade, the Force 22 build.
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Old 04-18-17, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
GT Grade, the Force 22 build.
the frameset looks sharp
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Old 04-18-17, 12:06 PM
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Thanks!

The wheels match the bike really well, too. The carbon, I mean.

I thought all the red was too loud and tacky when they arrived, and regretted the bar tape instantly. But it's been growing on me. And it looks a lot better outside than hanging up in my apartment.
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Old 04-18-17, 01:17 PM
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Funny, I thought tubeless rims has super hooks that the tire virtually sealed to almost like a Zip Lok bag. I know folks report not being able to break a tubeless tire head free of the rim. How is that possible with no hook of any kind?

I was working on some tubeless Roval wheels for the first time last week and had to deflate and then reinflate the tire. It sure seemed like there was some kind of locking mechanism holding the tire on. The tire broke free with a pop and also resealed with several pops as I reinflated. It surprised me to learn that likely no hooks were involved.
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Old 04-18-17, 02:34 PM
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^ I think it's essentially tires with stiffer beads, and a more precise fit.

When a tubeless tire seats in place it is tough to remove.

But if you break both beads loose and push the tire to the center it becomes quite easy to remove the tire because the other side of the tire is sitting down lower in the rim.

It's not really surprising that it works, given that most bicycle tires prior to about 1975,car tires, and truck tires are beadless.

https://www.lightbicycle.com/newslet...-is-ready.html

There's also a "tire bed bead seat lock" on the ENVE which is helping with air sealing, and I would think retention.

https://enve.com/products/ses-4-5-ar/

If you look at the diagram, when the tire is sitting up against the wall of the rim in the channel, that is where its tight to remove once centered. Push it the tire to the center and it becomes easy peasy to remove.
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Old 04-18-17, 02:42 PM
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The Roval also may still have hook bead.

The UST standard requires a hook bead that matches the UST standard for tires; so it's not that all tubeless ready rims are hookless.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/To-The...ires-2013.html

Its becoming more common to get rid of the hook bead in MTB rims. Its a bit more cutting edge for the road.
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Old 04-18-17, 02:43 PM
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Beads that won't stretch and a slightly different rim bed that allows the tire to "lock" into place. That was the pop you heard. Hunt refers to their design as H-Lock and have a good description on their site:

https://www.huntbikewheels.com/blogs...lock-explained

Many other brands of tubeless rims are similar.
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Old 04-18-17, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
How does the tire stay on without them?
You don't need hooks to hold a tire to a rim, just air pressure.

The only reason it's possible to get a modern tight bead over the rim edge is that the channel in the middle of the rim extends deeper down than where the bead seats; when you're installing a tire, aside from the spot you're shoving over the edge, it's sort of sitting on a "lower diameter" spot in the rim than when it's inflated.
When the tire is actually inflated, and the bead is sitting in the bead seat, the bead and the rim and both circular but the rim is a larger-diameter circle. A stiff bead can't going to just crawl up the rim and pop off.

Hooks are an easy way to make things always "just work", even in the face of relatively dubious manufacturing tolerances and stretchier beads and such. But they're not fundamentally necessary for clincher tire mounting.
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Old 04-18-17, 04:31 PM
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Its just the same idea as what is used on automotive rims. So nothing new except that it is being applied to bicycle rims.
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Old 04-18-17, 06:24 PM
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So the real mystery is the notion of clincher. Nothing is clinching.
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Old 04-18-17, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by HTupolev
You don't need hooks to hold a tire to a rim, just air pressure.

The only reason it's possible to get a modern tight bead over the rim edge is that the channel in the middle of the rim extends deeper down than where the bead seats; when you're installing a tire, aside from the spot you're shoving over the edge, it's sort of sitting on a "lower diameter" spot in the rim than when it's inflated.
When the tire is actually inflated, and the bead is sitting in the bead seat, the bead and the rim and both circular but the rim is a larger-diameter circle. A stiff bead can't going to just crawl up the rim and pop off.

Hooks are an easy way to make things always "just work", even in the face of relatively dubious manufacturing tolerances and stretchier beads and such. But they're not fundamentally necessary for clincher tire mounting.
Okay, but isn't the bead seat the same as the hook. IOW on hookless rims there is no head seat. The head just presses against the smooth wall a little lower than the top.
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Old 04-18-17, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
Okay, but isn't the bead seat the same as the hook. IOW on hookless rims there is no head seat. The head just presses against the smooth wall a little lower than the top.
Correct. On old rims, the rim is just 2 smooth, parallel surfaces, and as you said, the wire bead of the tire juat pushes up against the flatt inner wall.
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Old 04-19-17, 08:18 AM
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The fastest tire will be this
https://www.vittoria.com/tire/corsa-speed-open-tlr/
per Vittoria Corsa Speed (open TLR) Rolling Resistance Review


The Schwalbe Pro One Tubeless Rolling Resistance Review
would be next on the list


With good sealant inside you should not flat any more than with the GP4000, maybe less
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Old 04-19-17, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
Okay, but isn't the bead seat the same as the hook. IOW on hookless rims there is no head seat. The head just presses against the smooth wall a little lower than the top.
Here's what the rims we're talking about look like.

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Old 04-19-17, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
Okay, but isn't the bead seat the same as the hook. IOW on hookless rims there is no head seat. The head just presses against the smooth wall a little lower than the top.
The bead seat isn't as explicit, there are still areas in hookless rims where it's expected that the bead will end up being when the tire is inflated.
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Old 04-19-17, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by bikebreak
The fastest tire will be this
https://www.vittoria.com/tire/corsa-speed-open-tlr/
per Vittoria Corsa Speed (open TLR) Rolling Resistance Review


The Schwalbe Pro One Tubeless Rolling Resistance Review
would be next on the list


With good sealant inside you should not flat any more than with the GP4000, maybe less
For whatever reason the Corsa Speed Open is only available in a 23 width. Don't get that in this day and age.
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Old 04-19-17, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by bikebreak
The fastest tire will be this
https://www.vittoria.com/tire/corsa-speed-open-tlr/
per Vittoria Corsa Speed (open TLR) Rolling Resistance Review


The Schwalbe Pro One Tubeless Rolling Resistance Review
would be next on the list


With good sealant inside you should not flat any more than with the GP4000, maybe less
Thanks for that.

But we're not trying to figure out what the fastest tire in the world is, we want the fastest tire on these particular rims. The rims are deep, wide, and aerodynamic, especially as part of a wheel/tire system. The 4.5 ARs were designed around a 28 mm tire. If you call Enve and say "my rims are going to be delivered next week, what tires should I use with them?" they'll tell you they recommend the Pro Ones and that's what their testing is based on. (Source: I called Enve and said "my rims are going to be delivered next week, what tires should I use with them?")
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Old 04-19-17, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
Thanks for that.

But we're not trying to figure out what the fastest tire in the world is, we want the fastest tire on these particular rims. The rims are deep, wide, and aerodynamic, especially as part of a wheel/tire system. The 4.5 ARs were designed around a 28 mm tire. If you call Enve and say "my rims are going to be delivered next week, what tires should I use with them?" they'll tell you they recommend the Pro Ones and that's what their testing is based on. (Source: I called Enve and said "my rims are going to be delivered next week, what tires should I use with them?")
I can confirm. Same experience. Running with inner tubes. Loving the combo.
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Old 04-19-17, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by HTupolev
The bead seat isn't as explicit, there are still areas in hookless rims where it's expected that the bead will end up being when the tire is inflated.
I hear what you are saying, but calling a particular point on a smooth wall a "seat" is a bit unusual.
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Old 04-25-17, 08:20 AM
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Thank you, everyone.

I'm convinced that the Schwalbe Pro One is a good choice for the 4.5AR, aside from the relatively expensive price tag and the dreadfully low expected life (900 miles, they say? At my weight that means 600, or ½-⅓ of what I get out of a GP4000 S II).

The new 3.4 Disc seems happy with the GP 4000 S II, can run tubeless later when Conti finally gets off their collective behind and makes a tubeless version of that tire, and weighs less than the 4.5 AR.

Aside from the ability to run lower pressures on the 4.5 AR and the slight aerodynamic advantage, are there reasons to go with the 4.5? Or are those two reasons enough? And do those reasons outweigh the drastic increase in tire costs?

I have 5.5 weeks left to decide. Both rims are on order.
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Old 04-25-17, 08:28 AM
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Buy $3000 ENVE's; ***** about tire costs.

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Old 04-25-17, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Masque
Aside from the ability to run lower pressures on the 4.5 AR and the slight aerodynamic advantage, are there reasons to go with the 4.5? Or are those two reasons enough?
Wider rubber. It comes down to whether you want to leave the pavement or not. If you want to stick to paved roads, 25 mm tires are great, if you want to do some dirt and gravel, the 28s stretch out to 32 mm on the 4.5 ARs.

Pro Ones cost about the same as GPs.
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Old 04-25-17, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
Wider rubber. It comes down to whether you want to leave the pavement or not. If you want to stick to paved roads, 25 mm tires are great, if you want to do some dirt and gravel, the 28s stretch out to 32 mm on the 4.5 ARs.

Pro Ones cost about the same as GPs.
I'm going to be running 28s either way; the 28s I have now stretch to about 30mm, so the difference is pretty small. Even on the stock 20mm internal width rims I'm currently running, gravel and dirt have been no problem.

The cost isn't a major factor, really. The cost difference is minimal per tire. Both tires can be had for $38 if you look carefully and wait, but with expected lifetimes, I'll have to buy twice as many of the Schwalbe.

The question really is whether the aerodynamic benefits of the 4.5 outweigh the lighter weight (ha?) of the 3.4.

Wish I could ride both first.
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Old 04-25-17, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
Buy $3000 ENVE's; ***** about tire costs.

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Operating costs and procurement costs often come from separate budgets.

Also, not paying anywhere near $3k.
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Old 04-25-17, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Masque
I'm going to be running 28s either way; the 28s I have now stretch to about 30mm, so the difference is pretty small. Even on the stock 20mm internal width rims I'm currently running, gravel and dirt have been no problem.

The cost isn't a major factor, really. The cost difference is minimal per tire. Both tires can be had for $38 if you look carefully and wait, but with expected lifetimes, I'll have to buy twice as many of the Schwalbe.

The question really is whether the aerodynamic benefits of the 4.5 outweigh the lighter weight (ha?) of the 3.4.

Wish I could ride both first.
Then 4.5 AR is your answer. The 3.4s will give up their aerodynamic advantage with 28 mm tires, so why pay for it?
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