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Enve 4.5 AR tire selection - I want to keep my GP 4000 S II!

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Enve 4.5 AR tire selection - I want to keep my GP 4000 S II!

Old 04-25-17, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
Then 4.5 AR is your answer. The 3.4s will give up their aerodynamic advantage with 28 mm tires, so why pay for it?
I think I like the way you like to think.
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Old 04-25-17, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Masque
Thank you, everyone.

I'm convinced that the Schwalbe Pro One is a good choice for the 4.5AR, aside from the relatively expensive price tag and the dreadfully low expected life (900 miles, they say? At my weight that means 600, or ½-⅓ of what I get out of a GP4000 S II).
900mi is probably at the low end of what you should expect. Given that the Schwalbe Pro One is thinner than the GP4000SII, I would assume you'll get roughly half the life.

I generally got about 3k mi from an original Schwalbe One, but just switched to the Pro One, so I can't comment on the mileage. The Pro One did seem easier to mount.
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Old 04-25-17, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Masque
The question really is whether the aerodynamic benefits of the 4.5 outweigh the lighter weight (ha?) of the 3.4.
Sometimes these questions answer themselves when you run the numbers. (I think planning to use 28 mm tires has already answered for you, but this is a useful exercise anyway.)

The 4.5 AR Disc wheelset is 1,506 grams with DT 240 hubs, clinchers.

The 3.4 Disc wheelset is 1,421 grams with DT 240 hubs, clinchers.

The 4.5 AR is almost 6 % heavier. Maybe you prefer different hubs, I went with 240s out of necessity, but a Cris King or an Enve hub will weigh the same in either wheel.

Comparing the aerodynamic benefit is harder. With ideal conditions for both wheels, the 4.5s will be faster (on flat ground) because they're deeper. But you're planning to run 28s, which the 4.5s are made for, and which are too wide for the 3.4s, so it's a question of the 4.5 ARs in ideal conditions vs the 3.4s in less-than-ideal conditions.

I think this should be an easy choice for you.
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Old 04-26-17, 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
I think this should be an easy choice for you.
It should! But you presume that I know what's best for myself. The next thought exercise really is... should I go with the 3.4s and 25s instead?

• In spring, where I live, I get a lot of 15-20mph (gusting 30) days. And in the summer I do like to climb.
• The 3.4s allow more tire choices
• I've never had a particularly -bad- experience with 25mm tires off pavement.

(Side note: Going with White Industries hubs, at this point. 48 points of engagement, titanium freehub, less expensive than CK.)
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Old 04-26-17, 03:50 AM
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Anyone would think you were choosing a wheel set for riding the TT at the world champs!
Any performance difference will be minuscule and no doubt irrelevant for your application.
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Old 04-26-17, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Dean V
Anyone would think you were choosing a wheel set for riding the TT at the world champs!
Any performance difference will be minuscule and no doubt irrelevant for your application.
It's a big decision. I'd like to be certain that I've made the best choice for the next few years. Thanks for the reassurance that either way will work, though.
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Old 04-26-17, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Masque
• The 3.4s allow more tire choices
Like GPs, probably. I knew tubeless tires only would be a big deal when I bought the 4.5s but I didn't realize the full extent of it. But I expect that to change as gravel and tubeless get more popular, and I'm happy with Pro Ones. Anyway, it's a big deal.

Also you said climbing wheels, and I've probably got some idea what you're climbing. My thinking is what goes up must come down; great climbing wheels are good descending wheels. The 4.5s are real easy to control in a cross wind but the 3.4s should be easier because they're shallower. The 4.5s are very impact resistant, I do a lot of long descents on dirt roads, so that's important to me with washboards and embedded rocks and all that. For my riding the extra width helps a lot, but I'm doing a lot of miles on dirt and mud and gravel.

You really can't go wrong either way.

And I love my 4.5 ARs.
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Old 04-26-17, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Dean V
Anyone would think you were choosing a wheel set for riding the TT at the world champs!
Any performance difference will be minuscule and no doubt irrelevant for your application.
I can't speak for @Masque, but my next ride up and down Sun Mountain is a lot more important to me than the world champs.
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Old 04-26-17, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Masque
It should! But you presume that I know what's best for myself. The next thought exercise really is... should I go with the 3.4s and 25s instead?

• In spring, where I live, I get a lot of 15-20mph (gusting 30) days. And in the summer I do like to climb.
• The 3.4s allow more tire choices
• I've never had a particularly -bad- experience with 25mm tires off pavement.
It's windy most of the time in central Texas. Some of the guys I ride with have 45s and they get blown around. They claim, "you get used to it." I went with SES 3.4 ( original but updated braked tracks) so I don't have to get used to it.

They are a few grams lighter than my A23s, so I didn't give up anything climbing. They're more aero on the down hill part, so I gained something there.

25mm tires fit great and I don't want anything wider and have no interest in off-roading this bike. For short hops across gravel drives or closed/under construction roads, 25s have been OK.
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Old 04-26-17, 09:30 AM
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I don't remember. Did you check to make sure that 28 mm tires on the 4.5 will fit on your bike?
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Old 05-02-17, 12:31 PM
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Yes, they fit with room to spare. Good point, though.

I've ordered four of the Schwalbe Pro One tires. I guess that's a commitment. Or perhaps it's a hint to watch the For Sale forum in a couple of months.
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Old 07-06-17, 02:41 AM
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Well, ENVE's order fulfillment leaves rather a lot to be desired. They promised six weeks, and it's been closer to ... more than six.

I'm not a light guy. The 4.5AR max out at 80psi. I generally run my 28c GP2KS2s at 90-95psi, and at 80psi I have concerns.

This points me more to the 3.4, but then I am put back on 25c tires, and...

I think what I want is a wider 3.4. A 3.4AR Disc.

But even if ENVE announced that product today, it's pretty clear they wouldn't be shipping for 2-3 months anyway.

Grumble.
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Old 07-06-17, 03:30 AM
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Why don't you just get some wheels built. Light Bicycle do a 36mm and 46mm deep rim that is 28mm wide. Available with a hook bead or not, whatever you want.
Combined with the hubs of your choice you will get a good performing, well priced wheel set.
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Old 07-06-17, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Masque
Well, ENVE's order fulfillment leaves rather a lot to be desired. They promised six weeks, and it's been closer to ... more than six.

I'm not a light guy. The 4.5AR max out at 80psi. I generally run my 28c GP2KS2s at 90-95psi, and at 80psi I have concerns.
How 'not light' are you? At ~190, I'm running 30c Schwalbes (S-One) at 65f/70r and I could probably go down at least another 5psi; the 28mm Pro Ones on the 4.5ARs would probably result in just as much, or maybe even more volume.
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Old 07-07-17, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Dean V
Why don't you just get some wheels built. Light Bicycle do a 36mm and 46mm deep rim that is 28mm wide. Available with a hook bead or not, whatever you want.
Combined with the hubs of your choice you will get a good performing, well priced wheel set.
More tempting to try this every day that passes.
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Old 07-07-17, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
How 'not light' are you? At ~190, I'm running 30c Schwalbes (S-One) at 65f/70r and I could probably go down at least another 5psi; the 28mm Pro Ones on the 4.5ARs would probably result in just as much, or maybe even more volume.
With shoes and kit and a pocket full of carbs? I'm about 225.
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Old 07-07-17, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Masque
More tempting to try this every day that passes.
You can also get whatever spoke count you want. "twocicle" on the tandem forum had a set built for his tandem (there is a thread there about it) and I think he is pleased with them.
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Old 07-07-17, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Masque
With shoes and kit and a pocket full of carbs? I'm about 225.
I don't think that 80 would be a problem with that kind of volume, but ymmv.
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Old 08-10-17, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
I don't think that 80 would be a problem with that kind of volume, but ymmv.
And it turns out you are quite right.

The 4.5 AR is 25mm wide internally. My stock wheels were 19mm. This is a lot of extra air; I've gone from 90psi to 70psi with zero problems.

Somehow these rims handle better while still being more comfortable than what they replaced. I expect part of this is due to going tubeless.

Regarding tire choices, ENVE have changed their tune from when I called in May, and they're now seeming confident that any tubeless tire will work. But if pressed, they'll tell you not to use the Specialized S-Works Turbo tubeless model. It seems that tire departed the rim in their inflate-to-failure tests at around 50psi, as opposed to 125-150 for others.

(Honestly I wonder if they didn't actually have tubeless model. They're so similar in packaging and markings... but I'm not taking that risk.)

To sum up: Tubes are dumb, wide rims are fun, and I hope Continental figures this out too.
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Old 08-10-17, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Masque
And it turns out you are quite right.

The 4.5 AR is 25mm wide internally. My stock wheels were 19mm. This is a lot of extra air; I've gone from 90psi to 70psi with zero problems.

Somehow these rims handle better while still being more comfortable than what they replaced. I expect part of this is due to going tubeless.

Regarding tire choices, ENVE have changed their tune from when I called in May, and they're now seeming confident that any tubeless tire will work. But if pressed, they'll tell you not to use the Specialized S-Works Turbo tubeless model. It seems that tire departed the rim in their inflate-to-failure tests at around 50psi, as opposed to 125-150 for others.

(Honestly I wonder if they didn't actually have tubeless model. They're so similar in packaging and markings... but I'm not taking that risk.)

To sum up: Tubes are dumb, wide rims are fun, and I hope Continental figures this out too.
Did you have problems at 70psi with the 19mm wide rims? Were they tubeless?
I can't see how a wider rim would take any more of an impact before it bottomed the tyre out.
I can see that it would improve tyre stability for cornering though.
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