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Enve 4.5 AR tire selection - I want to keep my GP 4000 S II!

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Enve 4.5 AR tire selection - I want to keep my GP 4000 S II!

Old 04-18-17, 04:10 AM
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Enve 4.5 AR tire selection - I want to keep my GP 4000 S II!

Dear Collective Wisdom of the Internet,

I have six weeks.

At that time I should take possession of a set of Enve SES 4.5 AR Disc wheels on White Industries hubs (that's a topic for another thread, but I'm open to feedback here too!)

Problem is, I really like my tires, and Enve has built a rim that won't take them.

I value:
• Durability. The GP 4000 S II seems to shrug off everything. I've had one flat in my 2,100 miles with these tires.
• Low rolling resistance.
• Reflective sidewall options. Yep, it's silly, but I love 'em. I'd give this up if I could have the first two, though.
• On-sale pricing in the $40 range. I'll pay more if needed, but this makes the list.

So, for those of you out there running tubeless (as that's the type of tire this rim requires, even with a tube[!]), what's the closest thing to the venerable CGP4KS2? Or do I give up and go with the new SES 3.4 rim instead?
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Old 04-18-17, 09:20 AM
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You can't keep your GP4Ks. Sorry. You can't. (Source: Enve)

I'm using Pro Ones. Got a sidewall cut. Bad luck, but that's a common complaint about them. Otherwise they're fantastic tires.

The new 3.4 rim is a different beast. Do you want a lighter, narrower rim, or a wider, deeper, stronger one?
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Old 04-18-17, 09:22 AM
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A week or two ago, I took the 4.5 ARs off and put the Stan's back on, just for one ride. I'd been meaning to for a while, but I tend to procrastinate on chores I don't want to do. Night and day. Love my Enve wheels.
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Old 04-18-17, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Masque
Dear Collective Wisdom of the Internet,

I have six weeks.

At that time I should take possession of a set of Enve SES 4.5 AR Disc wheels on White Industries hubs (that's a topic for another thread, but I'm open to feedback here too!)

Problem is, I really like my tires, and Enve has built a rim that won't take them.

I value:
• Durability. The GP 4000 S II seems to shrug off everything. I've had one flat in my 2,100 miles with these tires.
• Low rolling resistance.
• Reflective sidewall options. Yep, it's silly, but I love 'em. I'd give this up if I could have the first two, though.
• On-sale pricing in the $40 range. I'll pay more if needed, but this makes the list.

So, for those of you out there running tubeless (as that's the type of tire this rim requires, even with a tube[!]), what's the closest thing to the venerable CGP4KS2? Or do I give up and go with the new SES 3.4 rim instead?
So, I've got the older SES 3.4 and a 25mm GP 4K fits that very nicely even though ENVE says that rim was designed for a 23mm tire.
The tire does not extend beyond the edge of the rim and I can just drop my wheel straight out without using my brake QR at all, either in or out.

I would bet the GP 4000 25s will work like a charm on those rims since they claim to be optimized for 25mm. (but I bet you could run 28s also...)

BUT you're talking about a disc brake rim vs regular rim. Are you going to just lace it to a disc brake hub and ignore the braking surface on the rim if you do it up this way?
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Old 04-18-17, 09:45 AM
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It's not about the size of the tire. The 4.5 AR rims do not have a bead hook. They're not compatible with non-tubless folding, beaded tires. You can put the "wrong" size tires on your wheels, you just can't put the wrong type on.

I like me some GP4Ks, and called Enve (877-358-2869) with this question. They basically said it would be inviting bad things to happen.
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Old 04-18-17, 09:49 AM
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The Schwalbe Pro One tires in 28c are fabulous out on the road. They are said not to wear as long as the GPs but for rolling resistance they were tested as lower than the GPs.

I'm still running mine with tunes at 65psi currently, but planning the conversion to tubeless at some point soon.
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Old 04-18-17, 09:49 AM
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So those are tubeless only rims? Not sure I would bother with that.
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Old 04-18-17, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
It's not about the size of the tire. The 4.5 AR rims do not have a bead hook. They're not compatible with non-tubless folding, beaded tires. You can put the "wrong" size tires on your wheels, you just can't put the wrong type on.

I like me some GP4Ks, and called Enve (877-358-2869) with this question. They basically said it would be inviting bad things to happen.
Thanks for explaining...I was about to make a "WTF" post.

Originally Posted by PepeM
So those are tubeless only rims? Not sure I would bother with that.
Goofus design decision for sure.
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Old 04-18-17, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
It's not about the size of the tire. The 4.5 AR rims do not have a bead hook. They're not compatible with non-tubless folding, beaded tires. You can put the "wrong" size tires on your wheels, you just can't put the wrong type on.

I like me some GP4Ks, and called Enve (877-358-2869) with this question. They basically said it would be inviting bad things to happen.
Ah, I see.

So other than having a brake track that wouldn't be used, are there any downsides to running the NEW SES on a disc brake hub with traditional tires and tubes?

I'm thinking forces on the spoke holes would be roughly equal...

Rim brakes = force from rim to hub
Disc brakes = force from hub to rim
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Old 04-18-17, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by PepeM
So those are tubeless only rims?
No, but it's a splitting hairs kind of no.

You can run tubes with them, but you still have to use tubeless tires. Or you can run tubeless, but you still have to use tubeless tires.
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Old 04-18-17, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by andr0id
So other than having a brake track that wouldn't be used, are there any downsides to running the NEW SES on a disc brake hub with traditional tires and tubes?
I don't know about the new 3.4s, but the 4.5 ARs don't have a brake track.
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Old 04-18-17, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
Goofus design decision for sure.
Unusual design decision, for sure. It's a trade off. This design is a lot more impact resistant because of the lack of hooks. The wheels were designed for mixed surface riding, on broken pavement, dirt roads, gravel, etc. A lot of people want to run tubeless on these surfaces because it's more comfortable, and for better grip except maybe on gravel. Hitting **** (pothole, washboard surface, etc) on the way down the mountain is bad. I wouldn't be willing to put up with it if I never left the pavement, but it makes sense for this application.
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Old 04-18-17, 10:23 AM
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Hey related question...I'm thinking of getting a set of GP4000s. I've had 23mm tires - wayyy too harsh for my size..195 pounds, and I ran my 23mm gatorskins at 130 psi. I have some 28mm tires, but the GP4000s don't seem to be very common at that size. I've seen some screaming deals on 25mm GP4000s...would those be significantly cushier than the 23mm, or should I just quit niggling and buy the 28s lol?
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Old 04-18-17, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Abe_Froman
Hey related question...I'm thinking of getting a set of GP4000s. I've had 23mm tires - wayyy too harsh for my size..195 pounds, and I ran my 23mm gatorskins at 130 psi. I have some 28mm tires, but the GP4000s don't seem to be very common at that size. I've seen some screaming deals on 25mm GP4000s...would those be significantly cushier than the 23mm, or should I just quit niggling and buy the 28s lol?
I'm about the same weight as you right now.

I run my 700x25 GP4000s at 100 rear and 80 front. Nice ride and very predictable.
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Old 04-18-17, 10:37 AM
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When I ran 23 mm GPs, I used 110 psi in the front and 120 in the back.

Now that I'm using the Enve 4.5 ARs and Pro 1s, I'm doing about 60 psi in the front and 65 to 70 psi in the back.

130 psi sounds incredibly high, and Gatorskins are awful tires. They're tough, but they roll like bricks. I'm not surprised you have a harsh ride like that. Grand Prix are more supple, when I went from Gatorskins to GPs (both in 23 mm) I was impressed by the improved grip and comfort.
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Old 04-18-17, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
When I ran 23 mm GPs, I used 110 psi in the front and 120 in the back.

Now that I'm using the Enve 4.5 ARs and Pro 1s, I'm doing about 60 psi in the front and 65 to 70 psi in the back.

130 psi sounds incredibly high, and Gatorskins are awful tires. They're tough, but they roll like bricks. I'm not surprised you have a harsh ride like that. Grand Prix are more supple, when I went from Gatorskins to GPs (both in 23 mm) I was impressed by the improved grip and comfort.
Yeah. I'm sort of kicking myself for selling a full ultegra carbon bike I bought last summer. I hated the ride, but in retrospect I think a bit of flexibility and new tires would have made a world of difference.

I don't feel too bad...sold it for what I bought it for, and got summer on a nice bike and a cyclocomputer out of the deal...but still. I think should have stuck with it lol
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Old 04-18-17, 10:47 AM
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OP, I'll second the Schwalbe Pro Ones as doing what you want.


Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
Unusual design decision, for sure. It's a trade off. This design is a lot more impact resistant because of the lack of hooks. The wheels were designed for mixed surface riding, on broken pavement, dirt roads, gravel, etc. A lot of people want to run tubeless on these surfaces because it's more comfortable, and for better grip except maybe on gravel. Hitting **** (pothole, washboard surface, etc) on the way down the mountain is bad. I wouldn't be willing to put up with it if I never left the pavement, but it makes sense for this application.

I suppose.

I just use alloy rims on my unpavement bike with tubeless, less crying when something terrible happens in the line of service.
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Old 04-18-17, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
Unusual design decision, for sure. It's a trade off. This design is a lot more impact resistant because of the lack of hooks. The wheels were designed for mixed surface riding, on broken pavement, dirt roads, gravel, etc. A lot of people want to run tubeless on these surfaces because it's more comfortable, and for better grip except maybe on gravel. Hitting **** (pothole, washboard surface, etc) on the way down the mountain is bad. I wouldn't be willing to put up with it if I never left the pavement, but it makes sense for this application.
What does more impact resistant mean? Why would hooks affect that? How does the tire stay on without them?
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Old 04-18-17, 10:50 AM
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I've posted this before, but here are the 4.5 ARs we're talking about, in the wild. These are 28 mm Pro Ones, which measure to 31.5 mm on the rims.





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Old 04-18-17, 10:59 AM
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OK, done, i'm going full road bike mode now for the summer...hope you guys are happy lol. ribble has a 2 pack of GP4000s for $60, $5 shipping to US. Continental GP4000S II Twinpack - Folding Tyres - Ribble Cycles
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Old 04-18-17, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
What does more impact resistant mean? Why would hooks affect that?
The hook part of a carbon clincher rim is the hardest part to make durable. Without the hook, you can take the same amount of carbon and put it in the walls of the rim, and end up with a stronger rim at the same weight. ( or use less carbon, and have a rim of the same strength but less weight)

Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
How does the tire stay on without them?
Same way it stays on all sorts of wheels without hook beads. Car tires don't have hook beads. Bicycle tires didn't have hook beads until we started running high pressure clinchers.
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Old 04-18-17, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
what frameset is that?
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Old 04-18-17, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
No, but it's a splitting hairs kind of no.

You can run tubes with them, but you still have to use tubeless tires. Or you can run tubeless, but you still have to use tubeless tires.
So he should be running Schwalbe Pro One's, no?
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Old 04-18-17, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
What does more impact resistant mean? Why would hooks affect that? How does the tire stay on without them?
I've wondered how they stay on, too. All I can say for sure is they do. This setup feels better when I corner than anything I've been on before; I'm sure it's the tires and not the interface, but the lack of hooks doesn't make them slip in real-world use or anything.

Impact resistant means it's less likely to break if you hit something. That's important to me because I really love being in the Cascades, and we have lovely roads that aren't always in great condition.
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Old 04-18-17, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by gsindela
So he should be running Schwalbe Pro One's, no?
Yes. He can run any tubeless tire, but that's what Enve tested with. In 28 mm, the sidewalls are almost flush with the rims and these tires are probably the best aerodynamics he can get with his rims.
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