Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Wide rim 10s wheels

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Wide rim 10s wheels

Old 04-18-17, 05:30 AM
  #1  
miamijim
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
miamijim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 14,086
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 403 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 85 Times in 65 Posts
Wide rim 10s wheels

Did anyone make such a thing? Or did wide rims come onto the scene after 11s?
miamijim is offline  
Old 04-18-17, 05:50 AM
  #2  
Marcus_Ti
FLIR Kitten to 0.05C
 
Marcus_Ti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Posts: 5,331

Bikes: Roadie: Seven Axiom Race Ti w/Chorus 11s. CX/Adventure: Carver Gravel Grinder w/ Di2

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2349 Post(s)
Liked 405 Times in 254 Posts
What spline-hub are you wanting? All Campag wheels are 9/10/11 out of the same cassette body.

I think Pacenti came out with SL23 in 2011, so that would have been 10 speed times (least for Shimano) still I think...11-speed Shimano came out in 2012.
Marcus_Ti is offline  
Old 04-18-17, 06:18 AM
  #3  
rpenmanparker 
Senior Member
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682

Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build

Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 57 Times in 35 Posts
An 11-speed wheel converts to 10-speed with the addition of a spacer. There is no point to looking for an older 10-speed wheel with a wide rim. Just buy an 11-speed wheel and use the supplied spacer. For some Shimano compatible freehubs there may be two spacers, the thicker one that converts between 10- and 11-speed and the thinner one that helps snug up the fit of some Shimano cassettes. Easy, peasy.
__________________
Robert

Originally Posted by LAJ View Post
No matter where I go, here I am...
rpenmanparker is offline  
Old 04-18-17, 06:35 AM
  #4  
topflightpro
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,512
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1829 Post(s)
Liked 647 Times in 408 Posts
Hed.
topflightpro is offline  
Old 04-18-17, 06:36 AM
  #5  
miamijim
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
miamijim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 14,086
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 403 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 85 Times in 65 Posts
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
An 11-speed wheel converts to 10-speed with the addition of a spacer. There is no point to looking for an older 10-speed wheel with a wide rim. Just buy an 11-speed wheel and use the supplied spacer. For some Shimano compatible freehubs there may be two spacers, the thicker one that converts between 10- and 11-speed and the thinner one that helps snug up the fit of some Shimano cassettes. Easy, peasy.
From reading previous threads I though the point was that 11s wheels have a lot of dish and less than desirable DS NDS tension? I'm only running 10s so if I could avoid the 11s tension/dish issues I would....
miamijim is offline  
Old 04-18-17, 06:46 AM
  #6  
rpenmanparker 
Senior Member
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682

Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build

Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 57 Times in 35 Posts
Originally Posted by miamijim View Post
From reading previous threads I though the point was that 11s wheels have a lot of dish and less than desirable DS NDS tension? I'm only running 10s so if I could avoid the 11s tension/dish issues I would....
Minimal difference. Some newer hubs have been designed to avoid the tension issues and some other wheels are laced in a way to reduce or eliminate the problem. But 11-speed is a fact of life. Millions are riding it. I doubt the slight added dish and tension differential would be a problem for you if they are not for anyone else. Besides, who know when you will upgrade. Many more folks bemoan having to scrap a pair of 10-speed wheels when switching to 11 than ever complain about 11-speed dish and tension. Also a brand as reputable as Mavic has been making only the 11-speed version and supply the spacer forever. Since long before 11-speed was even common.
__________________
Robert

Originally Posted by LAJ View Post
No matter where I go, here I am...
rpenmanparker is offline  
Old 04-18-17, 06:55 AM
  #7  
shelbyfv
Expired Member
 
shelbyfv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 10,140
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3012 Post(s)
Liked 3,923 Times in 1,999 Posts
I have some Pacenti 10 speed wheels with their first gen SL23 and their own brand hubs. I doubt there are too many choices since 11 speed came out shortly after the wider rim trend began. If you have 10 speed hubs you like, maybe you could build something with a wider rim. I have a couple of sets of Ultegra/ Open Pro, wish I could find a wider rim with the same ERD to swap out, but they all seem to need shorter spokes.

Last edited by shelbyfv; 04-18-17 at 06:59 AM.
shelbyfv is offline  
Old 04-18-17, 07:21 AM
  #8  
Kopsis
Senior Member
 
Kopsis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 1,258
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by miamijim View Post
From reading previous threads I though the point was that 11s wheels have a lot of dish and less than desirable DS NDS tension? I'm only running 10s so if I could avoid the 11s tension/dish issues I would....
My trusty spoke calculator says a 32h Pacenti SL23 laced 3x to a Shimano 6800 (11-speed) hub will have a L-R tension ratio of 50%. Same rim with an older 6400 10-speed hub will have L-R tension ratio of 57%. If you go with a newer offset rim like the Pacenti Forza, you get all the way back to a 60% tension ratio on the 6800 hub.

But even at 50%, taking the R side to 120 kgf will get you 60 kgf on the L side, which should be sufficient for a reliable wheel as long as you don't try to go low spoke count with a soft rim (where "low" is a function of rider weight and riding style). It does mean builders have to be a little more precise on spoke tension (I'm definitely not comfortable building an 11-speed wheel without a calibrated tension meter to make sure I'm taking right side spokes right up to the limit).
Kopsis is offline  
Old 04-18-17, 08:08 AM
  #9  
miamijim
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
miamijim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 14,086
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 403 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 85 Times in 65 Posts
I guess I should stated that I'd prefer to buy off the shelf prebuilt wheels...Mavic, Shimano, Zipp, Fulcrum, Campagnolo....etc. I've build a bizzillion wheels in my time and don't care to build any more.

Maybe I'll just grab a pair of Campy or Mavic's and be done with it.

Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
Minimal difference. Some newer hubs have been designed to avoid the tension issues and some other wheels are laced in a way to reduce or eliminate the problem. But 11-speed is a fact of life. Millions are riding it. I doubt the slight added dish and tension differential would be a problem for you if they are not for anyone else. Besides, who know when you will upgrade. Many more folks bemoan having to scrap a pair of 10-speed wheels when switching to 11 than ever complain about 11-speed dish and tension. Also a brand as reputable as Mavic has been making only the 11-speed version and supply the spacer forever. Since long before 11-speed was even common.
Theres' the rub...from reading threads there seemed to a perceived issue. Maybe its a glorified non-issue.

Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
I have some Pacenti 10 speed wheels with their first gen SL23 and their own brand hubs. I doubt there are too many choices since 11 speed came out shortly after the wider rim trend began. If you have 10 speed hubs you like, maybe you could build something with a wider rim. I have a couple of sets of Ultegra/ Open Pro, wish I could find a wider rim with the same ERD to swap out, but they all seem to need shorter spokes.

Originally Posted by Kopsis View Post
My trusty spoke calculator says a 32h Pacenti SL23 laced 3x to a Shimano 6800 (11-speed) hub will have a L-R tension ratio of 50%. Same rim with an older 6400 10-speed hub will have L-R tension ratio of 57%. If you go with a newer offset rim like the Pacenti Forza, you get all the way back to a 60% tension ratio on the 6800 hub.

But even at 50%, taking the R side to 120 kgf will get you 60 kgf on the L side, which should be sufficient for a reliable wheel as long as you don't try to go low spoke count with a soft rim (where "low" is a function of rider weight and riding style). It does mean builders have to be a little more precise on spoke tension (I'm definitely not comfortable building an 11-speed wheel without a calibrated tension meter to make sure I'm taking right side spokes right up to the limit).
Sounds like a case of too much info being a bad thing.......
miamijim is offline  
Old 04-18-17, 08:16 AM
  #10  
shelbyfv
Expired Member
 
shelbyfv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 10,140
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3012 Post(s)
Liked 3,923 Times in 1,999 Posts
Fulcrum and Campy prices from Ribble etc seem a good deal.
shelbyfv is offline  
Old 04-18-17, 09:56 AM
  #11  
rpenmanparker 
Senior Member
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 28,682

Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build

Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 57 Times in 35 Posts
Originally Posted by miamijim View Post
I guess I should stated that I'd prefer to buy off the shelf prebuilt wheels...Mavic, Shimano, Zipp, Fulcrum, Campagnolo....etc. I've build a bizzillion wheels in my time and don't care to build any more.

Maybe I'll just grab a pair of Campy or Mavic's and be done with it.



Theres' the rub...from reading threads there seemed to a perceived issue. Maybe its a glorified non-issue.






Sounds like a case of too much info being a bad thing.......
Campy and Fulcrum wheels don't have the problem, because they use triplet lacing. Twice as many spokes on the drive side as the non-drive side. That makes the tensions on the two sides nearly identical and quite high. Hence, nonissue.
__________________
Robert

Originally Posted by LAJ View Post
No matter where I go, here I am...
rpenmanparker is offline  
Old 04-18-17, 10:10 AM
  #12  
topflightpro
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,512
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1829 Post(s)
Liked 647 Times in 408 Posts
DT Swiss hubs and Mavic wheels did not change when going from 10 to 11 speed. So, I cannot imagine how much of an issue wheel dish and spoke tension would be.

(Mavic wheels have been 11-speed compatible since about 2002. And to convert a DT 240 to 11 speed, one merely needs to replace the freehub body. The wheels do not need to be adjusted otherwise. That includes other hubs, like Reynolds or Roval, that use DT 240 internals.)
topflightpro is offline  
Old 04-18-17, 10:38 AM
  #13  
noodle soup
Senior Member
 
noodle soup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 8,910
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4694 Post(s)
Liked 1,860 Times in 991 Posts
Originally Posted by miamijim View Post
from reading threads there seemed to a perceived issue. Maybe its a glorified non-issue.


Sounds like a case of too much info being a bad thing.......
Most of the people that rail against the dish of modern wheelsets, are people that are looking for a reason to continue using 8-10spd groupsets.
noodle soup is offline  
Old 04-18-17, 11:26 AM
  #14  
miamijim
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
miamijim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 14,086
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 403 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 85 Times in 65 Posts
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
Campy and Fulcrum wheels don't have the problem, because they use triplet lacing. Twice as many spokes on the drive side as the non-drive side. That makes the tensions on the two sides nearly identical and quite high. Hence, nonissue.
Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
DT Swiss hubs and Mavic wheels did not change when going from 10 to 11 speed. So, I cannot imagine how much of an issue wheel dish and spoke tension would be.

(Mavic wheels have been 11-speed compatible since about 2002. And to convert a DT 240 to 11 speed, one merely needs to replace the freehub body. The wheels do not need to be adjusted otherwise. That includes other hubs, like Reynolds or Roval, that use DT 240 internals.)
Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
Most of the people that rail against the dish of modern wheelsets, are people that are looking for a reason to continue using 8-10spd groupsets.


All excellent information and exactly what I was looking for. Thx.
miamijim is offline  
Old 04-18-17, 12:30 PM
  #15  
Kopsis
Senior Member
 
Kopsis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: St. Pete, Florida
Posts: 1,258
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by miamijim View Post
Sounds like a case of too much info being a bad thing.......
Sorry, I keep forgetting that we've entered an era where making decisions based on actual facts is passé.
Kopsis is offline  
Old 04-18-17, 01:02 PM
  #16  
alcjphil
Senior Member
 
alcjphil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 5,313
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1534 Post(s)
Liked 1,210 Times in 720 Posts
Originally Posted by miamijim View Post
All excellent information and exactly what I was looking for. Thx.
Keep in mind that Mavic has been producing wheels for almost 20 years that were "11 speed" compatible. The original reason for this was that Mavic produced cassettes that came with spacers for either Shimano or Campagnolo spacing using the Shimano spline setup. The only way they could make this work was to design their wheels around a freehub body length which could accept a Campagnolo spaced 9, 10, and later 11 speed cassette. This meant that to accommodate Shimano 8, 9, and 10 speed cassettes a spacer was required behind the cassette. If all those Mavic wheels sold over all those years were a problem because of dish, Mavic would soon have gone out of business
alcjphil is offline  
Old 04-18-17, 01:13 PM
  #17  
Dave Mayer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,230
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 920 Post(s)
Liked 268 Times in 173 Posts
Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
Most of the people that rail against the dish of modern wheelsets, are people that are looking for a reason to continue using 8-10spd groupsets.
Turning that argument around, most people who want to sell the turnover to 11-speed groupsets are retailers or component manufacturers who want to convince you to 'upgrade' for minimal incremental gains, the real reason being to drain your wallet. The sorry bike industry needs to add another cog every 7-years to add some sales buzz and render previous generations of bike stuff: 'obsolete'.

The math: an 11-speed rear wheel has double the spoke tension on the driveside than the non-driveside. For 10-speed this is 57%. Not much? This is the case where every added cog makes the situation worse to the point now where wheel manufacturers have to resort to absurd kludges to maintain design integrity. The kludges include 2:1 spoking, reinforced (heavy) rims, and offset rear rims. These custom parts now make it impossible to build a rear wheel with the component parts that were common 30 years ago. Such as standard lightweight rims; the amount of dish and spoke tension differential causes a wavy pattern when they are spoked-up and tensioned.

So an additional downside of 11-speed wheels is the difficulties of sourcing highly customized replacement parts, and how heavy are current rear rims.

So back to the OP's requirement for a 10-speed rear wheel. Even ignoring all of my previous arguments, you should be able to source a used 10-speed rear wheel, which is structurally superior to an 11-speed wheel, for next to nothing. Gullible early-adopters are your best source for cheap cast-offs.
Dave Mayer is offline  
Old 04-18-17, 01:20 PM
  #18  
alcjphil
Senior Member
 
alcjphil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 5,313
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1534 Post(s)
Liked 1,210 Times in 720 Posts
Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
Turning that argument around, most people who want to sell the turnover to 11-speed groupsets are retailers or component manufacturers who want to convince you to 'upgrade' for minimal incremental gains, the real reason being to drain your wallet. The sorry bike industry needs to add another cog every 7-years to add some sales buzz and render previous generations of bike stuff: 'obsolete'.

The math: an 11-speed rear wheel has double the spoke tension on the driveside than the non-driveside. For 10-speed this is 57%. Not much? This is the case where every added cog makes the situation worse to the point now where wheel manufacturers have to resort to absurd kludges to maintain design integrity. The kludges include 2:1 spoking, reinforced (heavy) rims, and offset rear rims. These custom parts now make it impossible to build a rear wheel with the component parts that were common 30 years ago. Such as standard lightweight rims; the amount of dish and spoke tension differential causes a wavy pattern when they are spoked-up and tensioned.

So an additional downside of 11-speed wheels is the difficulties of sourcing highly customized replacement parts, and how heavy are current rear rims.

So back to the OP's requirement for a 10-speed rear wheel. Even ignoring all of my previous arguments, you should be able to source a used 10-speed rear wheel, which is structurally superior to an 11-speed wheel, for next to nothing. Gullible early-adopters are your best source for cheap cast-offs.
Oh please, any wheel manufacturer who has offered both Shimano and Campagnolo compatible versions of their wheels in the last 20 years has dealt with and solved how to deal with this "problem"
alcjphil is offline  
Old 04-18-17, 01:29 PM
  #19  
miamijim
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
miamijim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 14,086
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 403 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 85 Times in 65 Posts
Originally Posted by alcjphil View Post
Oh please, any wheel manufacturer who has offered both Shimano and Campagnolo compatible versions of their wheels in the last 20 years has dealt with and solved how to deal with this "problem"
They all solve it in different ways...some better than others. And some with more compromise than others.
miamijim is offline  
Old 04-18-17, 01:32 PM
  #20  
miamijim
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
miamijim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 14,086
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 403 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 85 Times in 65 Posts
Originally Posted by Kopsis View Post
Sorry, I keep forgetting that we've entered an era where making decisions based on actual facts is passé.
Well, it's a matter of knowing which facts to follow, how many to follow and the builders ability to understand the facts and execute them properly.

If I didn't have better things to do I'd drive to St. Pete and teach you a little of what I know about wheel building.
miamijim is offline  
Old 04-18-17, 01:36 PM
  #21  
noodle soup
Senior Member
 
noodle soup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 8,910
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4694 Post(s)
Liked 1,860 Times in 991 Posts
Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
Turning that argument around, most people who want to sell the turnover to 11-speed groupsets are retailers or component manufacturers who want to convince you to 'upgrade' for minimal incremental gains, the real reason being to drain your wallet. The sorry bike industry needs to add another cog every 7-years to add some sales buzz and render previous generations of bike stuff: 'obsolete'.

The math: an 11-speed rear wheel has double the spoke tension on the driveside than the non-driveside. For 10-speed this is 57%. Not much? This is the case where every added cog makes the situation worse to the point now where wheel manufacturers have to resort to absurd kludges to maintain design integrity. The kludges include 2:1 spoking, reinforced (heavy) rims, and offset rear rims. These custom parts now make it impossible to build a rear wheel with the component parts that were common 30 years ago. Such as standard lightweight rims; the amount of dish and spoke tension differential causes a wavy pattern when they are spoked-up and tensioned.

So an additional downside of 11-speed wheels is the difficulties of sourcing highly customized replacement parts, and how heavy are current rear rims.

So back to the OP's requirement for a 10-speed rear wheel. Even ignoring all of my previous arguments, you should be able to source a used 10-speed rear wheel, which is structurally superior to an 11-speed wheel, for next to nothing. Gullible early-adopters are your best source for cheap cast-offs.
thanks for taking the time to post the tired old argument I was talking about.
noodle soup is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
rdtindsm
Bicycle Mechanics
6
06-24-15 05:32 PM
camelopardalis
Bicycle Mechanics
35
05-18-15 03:04 PM
Error
Bicycle Mechanics
9
09-20-14 07:15 PM
murzikrv
Bicycle Mechanics
3
07-18-14 12:17 PM
jtolive
Bicycle Mechanics
7
12-10-13 01:12 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2022 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.