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SRAM eTap: 0 & 2 in the count... One more strike and YOU'RE OUT!!

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SRAM eTap: 0 & 2 in the count... One more strike and YOU'RE OUT!!

Old 04-25-17, 07:26 PM
  #1  
dblackwood72
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SRAM eTap: 0 & 2 in the count... One more strike and YOU'RE OUT!!

So... I was very fortunate to get the eTap grouppo for my birthday.... So far, it's been a nightmare!

I was coming from the original 10sp SRAM Red, "upgraded" to eTap WiFli 11-32... figured moving from the 10sp, I would just be adding the 32 bailout gear, which can be useful in my area!

STRIKE ONE: Had my local LBS install the groupset... to find out the rear derailleur was DOA (yes batteries were fully charged). Shifted fine in the smaller cogs... but moving up the cassette, it would sputter and shift extremely slow! The mechanic installed another derailleur from an off the self s-works, and it worked fine, so ruled out any other component/pairing issue.
After a long conversation with SRAM, determined it is probably a bad servo, instructed to send the derailleur back and they would ship a new one out... a one week delay!

STRIKE TWO: Got the new derailleur installed and after only one ride, began having problems. Shifting in the lower cogs (11-13) was very poor. sometimes a 2-3 second delay or requiring 2 "clicks", the cage would move and you can hear it trying to shift up, but nothing. Shifting from 14-32 was flawless! Weird thing is the issues in the 11-13 were intermittent. This made me believe it was not an adjustment issue.
Went back to my LBS and they attempted to adjust the derailleur, but no change... Again, long conversation with SRAM. They think I have another "bad" derailleur!... Send it back and waiting for a new one to be sent (overnight this time).

Possibly, I may be having the worst luck ever! I have searched for similar issues on various forums and have not seen similar issues.

I told my mechanic if the 3rd derailleur is bad, I'm gonna ask SRAM to reimburse me and go to DA Di2. I hope this is not the case.... I really like the clean setup with less cables. The shifting is very intuitive, didn't even have to think about which paddle (or blip) to press for shifting... but I'm done after this!

Don't want to hear... should have gone DA!

Interested to hear if anyone else has had/or heard of any issues like this!

Specs:
2012 Tarmac SL4 Pro
11sp Zipp 404's
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Old 04-25-17, 07:46 PM
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I don't have the WiFli RD but, I have not had any issues with shifting. The only problem I had was one of the limit screws on the FD was hitting the crank when in the big ring. I was able to get it to work but, shifting was not perfect. SRAM recently sent out shorter limit screws and everything is perfect now.
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Old 04-25-17, 07:55 PM
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6000+ miles with a short cage RD and not a single problem.
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Old 04-25-17, 10:05 PM
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It would be interesting to know if the failed derailleurs had similar serial numbers or were manufactured on the same day or same shift. Sometimes replacement computer parts go bad like that - a whole string of sequential serial numbers is bad.

Keep in mind that derailleurs are electronics just like any other electronic device. Magnetic tools are a no-no. I have no idea how SRAM adjusts but someone could have used a magnetic screwdriver and killed it.


-Tim-
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Old 04-26-17, 01:03 AM
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The etap front derailleur on my frame can't be placed low enough on the braze on and constantly throws the chain off when shifting into the big ring. When the limit screw is adjusted to move the cage inboard it no longer drops the chain, but I get rub. So I chose rub and bad shifting into the big ring over a dropped chain ever other shift. I can get a 53/39 to get the teeth closer to the cage. But my average speeds at about 10mph. I've been trying to find a machinist to make me a custom braze on, but no one is interested in such a tiny one off job. This is a design problem that more than a few people experience on different brands of frames.
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Old 04-26-17, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
Keep in mind that derailleurs are electronics just like any other electronic device. Magnetic tools are a no-no. I have no idea how SRAM adjusts but someone could have used a magnetic screwdriver and killed it.
That was true 20 years ago, it's no longer true. Magnets are bad for magnetic media, but everyone has gone to flash memory for anything other than computer hard drives.
There's no way a magnetic screwdriver could have done anything to the SRAM system.
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Old 04-26-17, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Danny01 View Post
The etap front derailleur on my frame can't be placed low enough on the braze on and constantly throws the chain off when shifting into the big ring. When the limit screw is adjusted to move the cage inboard it no longer drops the chain, but I get rub. So I chose rub and bad shifting into the big ring over a dropped chain ever other shift. I can get a 53/39 to get the teeth closer to the cage. But my average speeds at about 10mph. I've been trying to find a machinist to make me a custom braze on, but no one is interested in such a tiny one off job. This is a design problem that more than a few people experience on different brands of frames.
Can't you just extend the slot in the existing braze-on mount? This was a common modification when compact cranks first became popular. Or do you need more downward adjustment than that would allow?
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Old 04-26-17, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by gsa103 View Post
That was true 20 years ago, it's no longer true. Magnets are bad for magnetic media, but everyone has gone to flash memory for anything other than computer hard drives.
There's no way a magnetic screwdriver could have done anything to the SRAM system.
Thank you for the info. This is good to know.

The old school computer repair tech in me still shrinks back whenever I see someone with a screwdriver doing anything around electronic components.


-Tim-
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Old 04-26-17, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Danny01 View Post
The etap front derailleur on my frame can't be placed low enough on the braze on and constantly throws the chain off when shifting into the big ring. When the limit screw is adjusted to move the cage inboard it no longer drops the chain, but I get rub. So I chose rub and bad shifting into the big ring over a dropped chain ever other shift. I can get a 53/39 to get the teeth closer to the cage. But my average speeds at about 10mph. I've been trying to find a machinist to make me a custom braze on, but no one is interested in such a tiny one off job. This is a design problem that more than a few people experience on different brands of frames.
If you don't mind what chain rings? I have the Praxis Works Buzz and mine did the same thing to the big ring. I decided to bring it to a shop (2 in fact). They got it to shift but I wouldn't say it is ideal, if I shift and my cadence is below 80 it will not shift to the big ring, anything above 80 is fine.
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Old 04-26-17, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by ljp3 View Post
If you don't mind what chain rings? I have the Praxis Works Buzz and mine did the same thing to the big ring. I decided to bring it to a shop (2 in fact). They got it to shift but I wouldn't say it is ideal, if I shift and my cadence is below 80 it will not shift to the big ring, anything above 80 is fine.
I'm using the latest Sram Red 22 rings and crank. 50/34. The chain scratched up the pretty carbon arms on my first ride.
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Old 04-26-17, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
Can't you just extend the slot in the existing braze-on mount? This was a common modification when compact cranks first became popular. Or do you need more downward adjustment than that would allow?
This was considered. I'm afraid that the braze on will be weakened by dremeling it down though.
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Old 04-26-17, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Danny01 View Post
I'm using the latest Sram Red 22 rings and crank. 50/34. The chain scratched up the pretty carbon arms on my first ride.
I bet 52/36 chain rings will help. And maybe a 1-2mm extension of the hanger slot. Use discretion.
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Old 04-26-17, 11:13 AM
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eTap WiFli 11-32, 50/34 cranks, works perfectly.

WiFli seems very intolerant of any less than perfect rear hanger alignment... but with the long arm, I'm not surprised.

Dropped the chain first ride, put it back on the stand and repeated the front der install being more anal about height and alignment and noticed, oh hey, I have to do the limit screws. Been perfect since.

For the record, I had to raise it 1mm higher than indicated to keep it from rubbing on the big ring teeth when shifted to the small ring.
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Old 04-26-17, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by dblackwood72 View Post
So... I was very fortunate to get the eTap grouppo for my birthday.... So far, it's been a nightmare!

I was coming from the original 10sp SRAM Red, "upgraded" to eTap WiFli 11-32... figured moving from the 10sp, I would just be adding the 32 bailout gear, which can be useful in my area!

STRIKE ONE: Had my local LBS install the groupset... to find out the rear derailleur was DOA (yes batteries were fully charged). Shifted fine in the smaller cogs... but moving up the cassette, it would sputter and shift extremely slow! The mechanic installed another derailleur from an off the self s-works, and it worked fine, so ruled out any other component/pairing issue.
After a long conversation with SRAM, determined it is probably a bad servo, instructed to send the derailleur back and they would ship a new one out... a one week delay!

STRIKE TWO: Got the new derailleur installed and after only one ride, began having problems. Shifting in the lower cogs (11-13) was very poor. sometimes a 2-3 second delay or requiring 2 "clicks", the cage would move and you can hear it trying to shift up, but nothing. Shifting from 14-32 was flawless! Weird thing is the issues in the 11-13 were intermittent. This made me believe it was not an adjustment issue.
Went back to my LBS and they attempted to adjust the derailleur, but no change... Again, long conversation with SRAM. They think I have another "bad" derailleur!... Send it back and waiting for a new one to be sent (overnight this time).

Possibly, I may be having the worst luck ever! I have searched for similar issues on various forums and have not seen similar issues.

I told my mechanic if the 3rd derailleur is bad, I'm gonna ask SRAM to reimburse me and go to DA Di2. I hope this is not the case.... I really like the clean setup with less cables. The shifting is very intuitive, didn't even have to think about which paddle (or blip) to press for shifting... but I'm done after this!

Don't want to hear... should have gone DA!

Interested to hear if anyone else has had/or heard of any issues like this!

Specs:
2012 Tarmac SL4 Pro
11sp Zipp 404's
Lemons happen. Regarding your "strike two" this sounded like a calibration issue to me. Ghost shifting on an electric drivetrain are classic mis-calibration symptoms. Many good shops sell Di2 or Di2 bikes, but don't follow the book on how to build it up virgin, they go on autopilot and set it how they would a mech drivetrain.

I've known many people who swore at SRAM mech shifting...when reality was it wasn't setup right by their LBS.


Originally Posted by Danny01 View Post
The etap front derailleur on my frame can't be placed low enough on the braze on and constantly throws the chain off when shifting into the big ring. When the limit screw is adjusted to move the cage inboard it no longer drops the chain, but I get rub. So I chose rub and bad shifting into the big ring over a dropped chain ever other shift. I can get a 53/39 to get the teeth closer to the cage. But my average speeds at about 10mph. I've been trying to find a machinist to make me a custom braze on, but no one is interested in such a tiny one off job. This is a design problem that more than a few people experience on different brands of frames.
It is a design problem...but your's is not really SRAM's fault.

The blame for a badly placed FD braze ultimately lies with the frameset maker...only way it is SRAM's fault is if they published OEM documentation about where the braze should be that was wrong.
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Old 04-26-17, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Danny01 View Post
The etap front derailleur on my frame can't be placed low enough on the braze on and constantly throws the chain off when shifting into the big ring. When the limit screw is adjusted to move the cage inboard it no longer drops the chain, but I get rub. So I chose rub and bad shifting into the big ring over a dropped chain ever other shift. I can get a 53/39 to get the teeth closer to the cage. But my average speeds at about 10mph. I've been trying to find a machinist to make me a custom braze on, but no one is interested in such a tiny one off job. This is a design problem that more than a few people experience on different brands of frames.
did you previously use a compact crankset on this bike, and what frame are you using?

Last edited by noodle soup; 04-26-17 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 04-26-17, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Danny01 View Post
The etap front derailleur on my frame can't be placed low enough on the braze on and constantly throws the chain off when shifting into the big ring. When the limit screw is adjusted to move the cage inboard it no longer drops the chain, but I get rub. So I chose rub and bad shifting into the big ring over a dropped chain ever other shift. I can get a 53/39 to get the teeth closer to the cage. But my average speeds at about 10mph. I've been trying to find a machinist to make me a custom braze on, but no one is interested in such a tiny one off job. This is a design problem that more than a few people experience on different brands of frames.
What material is the frame or just the bracket? Assuming steel or Al can you not just file the brazed on bracket to open it up a little on the bottom. Even if you filed it all the way though to the bottom, the FD would likely clamp onto it nicely.
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Old 04-26-17, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Danny01 View Post
This was considered. I'm afraid that the braze on will be weakened by dremeling it down though.
The clamp on the derailleur will support the brazed on bracket when tightened into place.
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Old 04-26-17, 01:07 PM
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Filing slots like that has been commonly done to lower brake calipers when switching from 27" wheels to 700c.
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Old 04-26-17, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
did you previously use a compact crankset on this bike, and what frame are you using?
Yes I had mechanical Ultegra with 6800 50/34. Frame is a Kestrel Talon
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Old 04-26-17, 09:09 PM
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rear hanger was checked for proper alignment, and changed out for the hell of it... did not solve the problem

Originally Posted by nycphotography View Post
eTap WiFli 11-32, 50/34 cranks, works perfectly.

WiFli seems very intolerant of any less than perfect rear hanger alignment... but with the long arm, I'm not surprised.

Dropped the chain first ride, put it back on the stand and repeated the front der install being more anal about height and alignment and noticed, oh hey, I have to do the limit screws. Been perfect since.

For the record, I had to raise it 1mm higher than indicated to keep it from rubbing on the big ring teeth when shifted to the small ring.
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Old 04-26-17, 09:12 PM
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I set up my etap myself and it has worked great. The only issue was that I, like others, had to file the FD hanger a bit to get the FD low enough for my compact crank.

That said - sram's instructions are quite detailed and I followed them carefully. In your case I'd suggest double checking the RD hanger alignment, the chain length, and the b-screw to start with. Good luck!
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Old 04-26-17, 09:12 PM
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My LBS has done quite a few eTap installations... everything was done as instructed by SRAM.

[QUOTE=Marcus_Ti;19539807]Lemons happen. Regarding your "strike two" this sounded like a calibration issue to me. Ghost shifting on an electric drivetrain are classic mis-calibration symptoms. Many good shops sell Di2 or Di2 bikes, but don't follow the book on how to build it up virgin, they go on autopilot and set it how they would a mech drivetrain.

I've known many people who swore at SRAM mech shifting...when reality was it wasn't setup right by their LBS.
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Old 04-26-17, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by dblackwood72 View Post
rear hanger was checked for proper alignment, and changed out for the hell of it... did not solve the problem
did you check alignment on the new one? they've been known to be off even brand new.
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Old 04-26-17, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Danny01 View Post
Yes I had mechanical Ultegra with 6800 50/34. Frame is a Kestrel Talon
this confirms my belief that eTap is at fault.

The next version will probably fix this flaw(and a few others),
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Old 04-26-17, 11:32 PM
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Huh?


Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
this confirms my belief that eTap is at fault.

The next version will probably fix this flaw(and a few others),
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