All around wheel advice
05-17-17, 08:27 AM
#51
Senior Member
At its absolute face, this may be true. And none of this at all whatever is confrontational or anything like it. It's just illustrative.
Somewhere in this thread you recommend substituting Lasers for CX Rays, as Lasers are cheaper and CX Rays make a very slight difference. I'm guessing that the reason (direct or indirect) you know that is that we went to the wind tunnel, measured it, and published and shared the results. That's just one example of a zillion different things that we do to research, educate, and share that quite frankly I don't see anyone else doing. That all costs money and time.
$175 might be slightly high for a wheel building cost (although wildly far from unreasonable), you are getting a wheel build that is endorsed all over the place. Not saying we're the best, although I will gladly go dueling wheel builds versus anyone alive (and all wheels that go out are finaled by me personally), but paying $130 in a shop might get you someone's third-ever wheel build. S/he hasn't ridden/tested the wheels in question, can't offer anything like the same level of consultation we do, and just isn't expert in the product. You may or may not also be getting rim tape and skewers, which we provide.
That $175 also includes stuff like the following example. A customer got a new wheel set, and noticed that the wheel didn't coast well, like the cassette body was stuck. Having had that wheel go through my hands, I knew it worked perfectly well, so we paid to have the wheel sent back and checked. The shop that had installed the cassette had used a bent 10s spacer (we'd provided a new one) and the incorrect lock ring when installing the cassette. Fixing those 2 issues made the wheel work perfectly. We then shipped the wheel back to the customer on our dime. Would you do all that we did for $175?
The lower priced wheels, as with anything lower priced, offer thinner gross dollar margins. Even if the rims, hubs, and spokes were free, we'd have to charge you "x" in order to "own you" as a customer. To clarify, when I say "own you" I mean that as our responsibility/burden, not like "hah, sucker, we OWN you!" You may have questions or want additional use info, you're going to ask, and we're going to go WAY beyond in scope and promptness in satisfying you on all those fronts. So to call our margin "just" a build fee is way way way off the mark. We have to deal with any dud rims, labor to fix a part warranty is on us... It's borderline insane to think you're just paying for our wheel build.
On more expensive builds, it's not unusual for us to be at the retail price of the components used in the build. This is because we've made a consumer-focused commitment that it doesn't really matter what the % margins are, as our costs of build and service are relatively fixed. This also allows us to as readily recommend a less expensive set of wheels as a more expensive one. ANYONE who's contacted us about a build will vouch that we are the opposite of trying to push you into the most expensive build.
Beyond that, we're simply honest and straightforward about what parts we use. I could, on the run without 1 second of thought, name a dozen companies that either say their parts are proprietary when they aren't (which they obviously do to avoid having to defend against needing to engage in precisely the kind of thing I'm doing right now), or whose cost of goods sold are less than ours are for these lower-priced builds. Again, not going to list them, but the number of $750 wheel sets out there that have less than $250 worth of parts going into them is nuts. And people eat them up.
So that's my side of the story. This is a ludicrously far cry from a get rich quick scheme. This is a "work your n--ts off and bend over backward for customers pretty much every minute of the day and if you do it all right, stay above water" scheme. From my admittedly wickedly biased position, paying us a $175 premium over what you could spend to source things on your own and be left on your own to do the build and everything else that we do is an absolute screaming bargain. Your perspective may vary.
Somewhere in this thread you recommend substituting Lasers for CX Rays, as Lasers are cheaper and CX Rays make a very slight difference. I'm guessing that the reason (direct or indirect) you know that is that we went to the wind tunnel, measured it, and published and shared the results. That's just one example of a zillion different things that we do to research, educate, and share that quite frankly I don't see anyone else doing. That all costs money and time.
$175 might be slightly high for a wheel building cost (although wildly far from unreasonable), you are getting a wheel build that is endorsed all over the place. Not saying we're the best, although I will gladly go dueling wheel builds versus anyone alive (and all wheels that go out are finaled by me personally), but paying $130 in a shop might get you someone's third-ever wheel build. S/he hasn't ridden/tested the wheels in question, can't offer anything like the same level of consultation we do, and just isn't expert in the product. You may or may not also be getting rim tape and skewers, which we provide.
That $175 also includes stuff like the following example. A customer got a new wheel set, and noticed that the wheel didn't coast well, like the cassette body was stuck. Having had that wheel go through my hands, I knew it worked perfectly well, so we paid to have the wheel sent back and checked. The shop that had installed the cassette had used a bent 10s spacer (we'd provided a new one) and the incorrect lock ring when installing the cassette. Fixing those 2 issues made the wheel work perfectly. We then shipped the wheel back to the customer on our dime. Would you do all that we did for $175?
The lower priced wheels, as with anything lower priced, offer thinner gross dollar margins. Even if the rims, hubs, and spokes were free, we'd have to charge you "x" in order to "own you" as a customer. To clarify, when I say "own you" I mean that as our responsibility/burden, not like "hah, sucker, we OWN you!" You may have questions or want additional use info, you're going to ask, and we're going to go WAY beyond in scope and promptness in satisfying you on all those fronts. So to call our margin "just" a build fee is way way way off the mark. We have to deal with any dud rims, labor to fix a part warranty is on us... It's borderline insane to think you're just paying for our wheel build.
On more expensive builds, it's not unusual for us to be at the retail price of the components used in the build. This is because we've made a consumer-focused commitment that it doesn't really matter what the % margins are, as our costs of build and service are relatively fixed. This also allows us to as readily recommend a less expensive set of wheels as a more expensive one. ANYONE who's contacted us about a build will vouch that we are the opposite of trying to push you into the most expensive build.
Beyond that, we're simply honest and straightforward about what parts we use. I could, on the run without 1 second of thought, name a dozen companies that either say their parts are proprietary when they aren't (which they obviously do to avoid having to defend against needing to engage in precisely the kind of thing I'm doing right now), or whose cost of goods sold are less than ours are for these lower-priced builds. Again, not going to list them, but the number of $750 wheel sets out there that have less than $250 worth of parts going into them is nuts. And people eat them up.
So that's my side of the story. This is a ludicrously far cry from a get rich quick scheme. This is a "work your n--ts off and bend over backward for customers pretty much every minute of the day and if you do it all right, stay above water" scheme. From my admittedly wickedly biased position, paying us a $175 premium over what you could spend to source things on your own and be left on your own to do the build and everything else that we do is an absolute screaming bargain. Your perspective may vary.
05-17-17, 08:43 AM
#52
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When it comes to bikes, I try my best to always support local businesses rather than the large online retailers. Sometimes, you have to go with the big guys because you've got a family to feed, too. Just last week I was presented with this very dilemma where an Ultegra cassette cost double at the LBS vs online. $150 is unreasonable for an Ultegra cassette.. Just couldn't do it. Just no reason for it. I would have paid $10, $15 maybe even $20 more than retail, but double? come on.
The folks at November were very kind and informative.. and they definitely earned my respect. I haven't made a decision as I still haven't sold my current wheels. But, when I do, I'll probably buy from them.. I felt like their prices were reasonable.. as someone with little to no mechanical ability.. I have to have someone build the wheels for me unless I buy a pre-built package..and I see no reason why that person shouldn't be compensated for that. I can't imagine it's a 10 minute process putting a wheel together.
05-19-17, 08:33 AM
#53
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While Dave said he won't push you into the most expensive wheel option... its hard not to do it yourself. Those blue WI hubs are hard to resist!
FWIW, my WI/Kinlin build was reasonably priced, didn't take long, and has ridden great since I got it. And Dave isn't lying about aftersales support as well, I have sent him more than a couple emails since receiving my wheels and he responds quickly.
FWIW, my WI/Kinlin build was reasonably priced, didn't take long, and has ridden great since I got it. And Dave isn't lying about aftersales support as well, I have sent him more than a couple emails since receiving my wheels and he responds quickly.
05-19-17, 08:55 AM
#54
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05-19-17, 11:18 AM
#55
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At its absolute face, this may be true. And none of this at all whatever is confrontational or anything like it. It's just illustrative.
Somewhere in this thread you recommend substituting Lasers for CX Rays, as Lasers are cheaper and CX Rays make a very slight difference. I'm guessing that the reason (direct or indirect) you know that is that we went to the wind tunnel, measured it, and published and shared the results. That's just one example of a zillion different things that we do to research, educate, and share that quite frankly I don't see anyone else doing. That all costs money and time.
$175 might be slightly high for a wheel building cost (although wildly far from unreasonable), you are getting a wheel build that is endorsed all over the place. Not saying we're the best, although I will gladly go dueling wheel builds versus anyone alive (and all wheels that go out are finaled by me personally), but paying $130 in a shop might get you someone's third-ever wheel build. S/he hasn't ridden/tested the wheels in question, can't offer anything like the same level of consultation we do, and just isn't expert in the product. You may or may not also be getting rim tape and skewers, which we provide.
That $175 also includes stuff like the following example. A customer got a new wheel set, and noticed that the wheel didn't coast well, like the cassette body was stuck. Having had that wheel go through my hands, I knew it worked perfectly well, so we paid to have the wheel sent back and checked. The shop that had installed the cassette had used a bent 10s spacer (we'd provided a new one) and the incorrect lock ring when installing the cassette. Fixing those 2 issues made the wheel work perfectly. We then shipped the wheel back to the customer on our dime. Would you do all that we did for $175?
The lower priced wheels, as with anything lower priced, offer thinner gross dollar margins. Even if the rims, hubs, and spokes were free, we'd have to charge you "x" in order to "own you" as a customer. To clarify, when I say "own you" I mean that as our responsibility/burden, not like "hah, sucker, we OWN you!" You may have questions or want additional use info, you're going to ask, and we're going to go WAY beyond in scope and promptness in satisfying you on all those fronts. So to call our margin "just" a build fee is way way way off the mark. We have to deal with any dud rims, labor to fix a part warranty is on us... It's borderline insane to think you're just paying for our wheel build.
On more expensive builds, it's not unusual for us to be at the retail price of the components used in the build. This is because we've made a consumer-focused commitment that it doesn't really matter what the % margins are, as our costs of build and service are relatively fixed. This also allows us to as readily recommend a less expensive set of wheels as a more expensive one. ANYONE who's contacted us about a build will vouch that we are the opposite of trying to push you into the most expensive build.
Beyond that, we're simply honest and straightforward about what parts we use. I could, on the run without 1 second of thought, name a dozen companies that either say their parts are proprietary when they aren't (which they obviously do to avoid having to defend against needing to engage in precisely the kind of thing I'm doing right now), or whose cost of goods sold are less than ours are for these lower-priced builds. Again, not going to list them, but the number of $750 wheel sets out there that have less than $250 worth of parts going into them is nuts. And people eat them up.
So that's my side of the story. This is a ludicrously far cry from a get rich quick scheme. This is a "work your n--ts off and bend over backward for customers pretty much every minute of the day and if you do it all right, stay above water" scheme. From my admittedly wickedly biased position, paying us a $175 premium over what you could spend to source things on your own and be left on your own to do the build and everything else that we do is an absolute screaming bargain. Your perspective may vary.
Somewhere in this thread you recommend substituting Lasers for CX Rays, as Lasers are cheaper and CX Rays make a very slight difference. I'm guessing that the reason (direct or indirect) you know that is that we went to the wind tunnel, measured it, and published and shared the results. That's just one example of a zillion different things that we do to research, educate, and share that quite frankly I don't see anyone else doing. That all costs money and time.
$175 might be slightly high for a wheel building cost (although wildly far from unreasonable), you are getting a wheel build that is endorsed all over the place. Not saying we're the best, although I will gladly go dueling wheel builds versus anyone alive (and all wheels that go out are finaled by me personally), but paying $130 in a shop might get you someone's third-ever wheel build. S/he hasn't ridden/tested the wheels in question, can't offer anything like the same level of consultation we do, and just isn't expert in the product. You may or may not also be getting rim tape and skewers, which we provide.
That $175 also includes stuff like the following example. A customer got a new wheel set, and noticed that the wheel didn't coast well, like the cassette body was stuck. Having had that wheel go through my hands, I knew it worked perfectly well, so we paid to have the wheel sent back and checked. The shop that had installed the cassette had used a bent 10s spacer (we'd provided a new one) and the incorrect lock ring when installing the cassette. Fixing those 2 issues made the wheel work perfectly. We then shipped the wheel back to the customer on our dime. Would you do all that we did for $175?
The lower priced wheels, as with anything lower priced, offer thinner gross dollar margins. Even if the rims, hubs, and spokes were free, we'd have to charge you "x" in order to "own you" as a customer. To clarify, when I say "own you" I mean that as our responsibility/burden, not like "hah, sucker, we OWN you!" You may have questions or want additional use info, you're going to ask, and we're going to go WAY beyond in scope and promptness in satisfying you on all those fronts. So to call our margin "just" a build fee is way way way off the mark. We have to deal with any dud rims, labor to fix a part warranty is on us... It's borderline insane to think you're just paying for our wheel build.
On more expensive builds, it's not unusual for us to be at the retail price of the components used in the build. This is because we've made a consumer-focused commitment that it doesn't really matter what the % margins are, as our costs of build and service are relatively fixed. This also allows us to as readily recommend a less expensive set of wheels as a more expensive one. ANYONE who's contacted us about a build will vouch that we are the opposite of trying to push you into the most expensive build.
Beyond that, we're simply honest and straightforward about what parts we use. I could, on the run without 1 second of thought, name a dozen companies that either say their parts are proprietary when they aren't (which they obviously do to avoid having to defend against needing to engage in precisely the kind of thing I'm doing right now), or whose cost of goods sold are less than ours are for these lower-priced builds. Again, not going to list them, but the number of $750 wheel sets out there that have less than $250 worth of parts going into them is nuts. And people eat them up.
So that's my side of the story. This is a ludicrously far cry from a get rich quick scheme. This is a "work your n--ts off and bend over backward for customers pretty much every minute of the day and if you do it all right, stay above water" scheme. From my admittedly wickedly biased position, paying us a $175 premium over what you could spend to source things on your own and be left on your own to do the build and everything else that we do is an absolute screaming bargain. Your perspective may vary.
05-19-17, 04:21 PM
#56
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Please, please, please go to the November Bicycles website (I can't post the URL without more posts)... They ooze integrity and honesty, and make bomber wheels. I got a set of Pacenti SL23s with WI hubs laced 24/28, and have never looked back. They've got lots of miles on them, set up tubeless very easily, and haven't needed even the slightest turn of a spoke wrench since! Do yourself a favor friend, check them out!!
05-19-17, 04:53 PM
#57
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Well I've got a set of November Wheels too and love them. But to be honest. The Fulcrum 3 / Campagnolo Zonda's are hard to pass up when you buy them from a UK site. Quite cheap, roll really well , and look great. I can't feel any difference on the road with them from my other more expensive wheels. I've got an old set of Wiliiams System 30 wheels that I actually rode again today. They felt great, light and responsive. I've also got a set of Zen Cyclery wheels that are right above 1400 grams. I can't see where the Fulcrum 3 / Zonda's give up anything to these other more expensive options. Just my two cents.
Campagnol Zonda:
Fulcrum 3:
Zen Cyclery Siddartha:
Williams System 30 (rear rim replaced after over 8,000 miles on it)
OH and I forgot about my Campagnolo Shamals on the Giordana. Another great riding 1400+ gram wheelset that's well under the stated budget from the UK. These babies just fly! The spokes are super strong looking!
The Pacenti SL23 rims are wide and ride really well. I had a pair laced onto these old Dura Ace hubs for this one. Oh, and that's what I had November use when they built up a set of wheels for me.
These are the November Wheels, Pacenti SL23 rims with White Industry hubs. I've even put 700 x 28's on these before in fact that's what's on the front in this picture of my favorite and most comfortable century rider.
I guess the point of all my rambling is that there's lots of options and you certainly don't need to spend $1000 to get some really good wheels.
Campagnol Zonda:
Fulcrum 3:
Zen Cyclery Siddartha:
Williams System 30 (rear rim replaced after over 8,000 miles on it)
OH and I forgot about my Campagnolo Shamals on the Giordana. Another great riding 1400+ gram wheelset that's well under the stated budget from the UK. These babies just fly! The spokes are super strong looking!
The Pacenti SL23 rims are wide and ride really well. I had a pair laced onto these old Dura Ace hubs for this one. Oh, and that's what I had November use when they built up a set of wheels for me.
These are the November Wheels, Pacenti SL23 rims with White Industry hubs. I've even put 700 x 28's on these before in fact that's what's on the front in this picture of my favorite and most comfortable century rider.
I guess the point of all my rambling is that there's lots of options and you certainly don't need to spend $1000 to get some really good wheels.
__________________
Steel is real...and comfy.
Steel is real...and comfy.
05-20-17, 08:00 AM
#59
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Thanks! It does hold my descent top speed of 55+mph and on normal rides has never been under a 19 mph average. Of course I think I do pedal harder when riding it rocking the hot pink jersey and socks. Gotta keep my man card, LOL! 
__________________
Steel is real...and comfy.
Steel is real...and comfy.
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Tunnelrat81
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