Heathpack 

When you burn 700 cal per hour and consume 200, those calories are continuously doing something. They don't kick in after 6 hours somehow. They are sparing your glycogen stores. This is useful because your ability to digest and absorb nutrients diminishes over time. Well maybe *yours* doesn't. But this is commonly the experience of people riding intensely. It doesn't matter that OP is riding at 13-15 mph, for him that may be intensely for all we know. Especially once he gets past a ride duration that is normal for him.

You may have food spaced very convienently for you. I guess I don't really consider food sources in the first two hours of a long ride to be that relevant because I wouldn't be likely to be looking to stop in the first two hours of a ride. So what's relevant is how readily accessible food will be from that point on. Lockwood Valley: no stops for food after Pine Mountain Club. Onxy Summit from the Valley: no food stops after Angelus Oaks. Our route tomorrow is shorter, 60-70 miles and we won't see a store until mile 40. However that will likely be 3.5 hours in since it's mostly climbing, could be longer if people was to stop. Sorry I'm going to take food and possibly eat some, not assume I can make it on nothing to eat (although I likely could)

The Stages comment wasn't being catty. It was based on experience- the Stages power meters I had all overestimate power and therefore work done.

Well I guess you don't appreciate my overthinking approach any more than I appreciate your under thinking approach. You went to tell folks to wing it and that they'll probably be ok on a hoho and a prayer. And when the newby bonks and has a terrible time, you keep advising them not to think until they start to believe cycling is this mysterious undertaking that they can't understand and frequently winds up making them feel bonky and discouraged.

See I can mis-characterize your argument too.

Totally fine for you to say like others have up thread: hey my experience is different than Heathpack's and I don't even know why, I never really thought it through. Who knows you might be the same, you could just do what I'm doing. Instead you step in to characterize my explaination as overthinking and go mock the concept that I have a coach. Nice dig at coached athleticism. Cause anyone who isn't doing it Dr Isotopes way is clearly not having fun and just generally doing it wrong.

Doge

Eat fat.
Almond butter, Avocados, Whole Milk...

Stay off carbs unless you have a plan to fuel with them the whole way and are experienced. Running on carbs and missing a feed is bad.
So while a 100 mile racer may want carbs, a cruiser - should use fat.

Heathpack 

Although I disagree with your "eat fat" recommendation (based on an understanding of the complexity with which fat is absorbed/metabolized), I wonder about the logistical aspects of your recomendations. Are you carrying cut avocado in your jersey pocket? What do you do to keep milk cold on a ride, put ice in it?

redlude97

why eat fat if you are going to rely on it for energy. You are carrying over 20,0000 calories in fat on your body that are accessible

Doge

Whole milk, or cream (with ice) in the water bottle. You don't keep it cold, unless you like it that way. Chocolate is good for short rides but tends to be too sweat unless you can get refills and decide to go the carb route. The other bottle with water.
Packs of Justin's Almond or Peanut butter (that is race food) and slices of avocados - in a plastic bag. Just no bread, dried fruit etc. You know that the sugar and carbs, even while grains, trigger reactions you have to keep feeding. Better stay away from the sugar - and caffeine. Stay away from veggies too. This is not a diet, or racing formula, rather a get the ride done at a reasonable pace formula.

I did not mention, but I will now, don't eat anything for the first time on the ride. You should know you do not have issues with milk, or those nuts - or Avocados.

Doge

Breaking down fat and having it in your gut are different. You want to avoid the carbs to keep the insulin spikes down.

Carbs are great if really putting out max effort. Shoot - pure sugar with amino acids. But if you then forget a feed - it is pretty much all over.

Heathpack 

Wow, the exact opposite approach I'd take. What's your pace for say a moderate climbing (5000 ft) century using that fueling strategy? With drafting or without.

Doge

As you know 95% of the stuff I post is about my kid. This is from my years of ultra cycling with a few 1,400mile/weeks in there, and 30 or so a year 160 mile rides to and from work to home each way. I did that on fat.

I don't know the OP, but 10% off that of carbs.
For me - 200 miles in 10 hours was typical.

Heathpack 

Either way, the metabolism of fat whether from your stomach or fat stores is a complex multi step process. It's never fast fuel.

I'm not sure why you're trying to avoid insulin. Insulin spikes because it's what you need to get sugar into cells. The spike is useful and it unspikes when the sugar is gone, that part is normal.

Thinking it through, I can't really see myself going out for a 100+ mile ride to just noodle around. I'd always be looking to see how hard I could ride. Maybe ride two 40k TT intervals at the beginning and see how the rest of the ride goes.

Heathpack 

Well if you were riding 200 miles in 10 hrs that was pretty fast. I'd never attempt that on fat. Really any mixed fuel sources- fat and protein- are just very hard for me to digest unless I stop. And even then, the protein (which I think is the true offender for me on the bike, it just sits in my stomach like a rock) will take long enough to digest that I'll avoid it.

But carbs work well for me. I can ride at fairly high intensity throughout when I'm trained to the distance, on almost all carbs and a little caffeine.

Racing Dan

Im sure others have mentioned it already. But this is not enough. Not even close. Imo. Eat a good breakfast, oatmeal if that is something you a akin to and you can bring a PBJ or two, a banana or two is good too. - Real food is tastier than "sport food". Other than that Id go for easy carbs. Sport drink, soda, bars (I like a snickers), gels, what ever you know and like. The usual recommendation is about 200cal/hour > 50g of carbs pr hour. Im guessing thats about right, but I often find that I consume less in practice. I would dump the protein bar and replace it with a solid meal after the fact.

Doge

I agree - fat is NOT fast fuel. And the spike is normal. You eat carbs - you need more carbs. And then the fat seems to not be used.

Your "TT intervals" indicate thinking racing. I didn't think that was the OP question.

Daniel (my kid for the 1-2 that don't know) will race 109 miles on Justin's with GU on top (sugar and amino acid) - and water taking caffeine the last 1-2 hours - but he'll be going over 27mph.

But to the racing part...Google Froome's breakfast. Hard boiled eggs and Avos.
Off the bike
https://www.dietdoctor.com/chris-fro...on-tour-france

gregf83 

Most people don't have any trouble extracting energy from stored fat. It might be useful to ingest fat for a 600km brevet but seems unnecessary for a century. I don't recall seeing any studies suggesting intake of fats would be helpful. Please share if you have some research links.

Also, when exercising you don't get large insulin swings with carb ingestion. This is well documented.

Doge

As I posted - you can do carbs. You are trained at carbs. But I think you know if you run out - you are out. It is bad. The stuff sits in your stomach because you put carbs on top. The body likes to eat the frosting off the top.

Early - mid 8-s I lived in San Clemente, and lived in Boulevard for a few years. I'd ride the 130-160 miles over Mt Laguna or some other route home for the weekends and back. Then 30-50 miles a day. I worked for a bike nut, and early cycling nutrition explorer. So we followed the diets of the riders back then. We got into the fat thing. I also road San Juan Capistrano to Washington DC in 15 days. Then I went to commuting 80 miles for work. All those I fueled on what was in my jersey (except water).

As you know, I was not much of a racer. But I did learn how to eat and go fast.

Doge

I shared a bit about Froome. Google more. Some folks find it quite offensive and make colorful videos over it.
I have to go to bed now.

gregf83 

Thats what he ate during training, not racing. He was minimizing carbs to lose weight not for performance. But I suppose if you're at 5% body fat eating some extra fat is necessary.

rgconner

Everyone is different.

I do much better on a high fat moderate protein mix, very few carbs. I use MCT (palm/coconut) because they break down fast and also beef tallow because it breaks down slightly less fast than MCT.

American Indians call this "pemmican", and was their all day food and winter survival food.

Studies have shown you can train yourself to burn fat faster from reserves if you eat a high fat/low carb diet, presuming you can tolerate that diet.

You just have to know what kind of metabolism you have, and do what works best for you, and not a bunch of guys on the internet.

Doge

Please read my posts above. I said, and I agree that carbs can be good race food. The OP is not asking about racing. I used fat when I could ride breathing through my nose, and carbs when I had to really suck air. But for sustained long rides - I would breath through my nose and eat a low carb in-ride fuel.
BTW - the math is real tight for 200kCal / hour for a trained cyclist. I think they do much better than that. Esp if you look at the 140 mile stages in the TdF and the awake hours they have.

Anyway a link or two.
Read below for some exercise data. https://ultrarunning.com/features/he...at-adaptation/

I had dinner a couple years ago (college parents) with Julie Burns who is the nutritionist for the Blackhawks (hockey). She was coaching junior to ride with cream in the water bottle.

ReneV

I'm fairly certain your body needs to adapt in order to burn fat for fueling exercise.

To the OP: take more than you suggest if there're no services along the way, and try to eat on the low end. If you start bonking, take a break of an hour or so and eat and drink and have electrolytes but don't over-do it. If possible, don't take a break. As others have said, stuff like this needs to be figured out over time. Personally, I would recommend focusing on carbs to anyone who's still figuring things out. If Japanese-style rice balls (onigiri) are an option, bring one or two,

PepeM

I get where @DrIsotope is coming from. I've done two centuries: this one last weekend and another one called Death by Hills, which should give you an idea. Nothing for water for the first one and for that second one all I ate were some cashews and a banana. On the other hand, I understand different people have different requirements, so I won't go around suggesting that they don't eat anything just because I have done it and I didn't die.

RichardR1015

There will be stops along the way (gas stations,restaurants, etc) so what I have with me will serve as a baseline. I've also added trail mix (120 cal) to my food list. As it stand I will leave out with about 1100-1300 calories. If more is needed then I'll stop and get something but I'll know for next time to pack it.

This is an awesome route to try this on because I do have several places to stop so starving or crashing out aren't really a concern. I'm just asking everyone to get feedback from those who have done it and exactly what I got this time is what I got last time. Some people use nothing others use 2000-3000 calories at a time.

Several great points were made on this thread so I'm shooting for the 200 calories a hour range and I should be fine. Thanks for the feedback and given I don't die, I'll update once I'm done.

WhyFi

Having an average weekly output that puts you in a 5,000 mile/year category constitutes little-to-no preparation?

Heathpack 

Well in fact, the fat is always used, it's used simultaneously with carb at all intensities to some extent. It's just the relative percent that changes with intensity. We know fat is always being used on a 100+ mile ride for me because my aim is to create a 1500 cal deficit. That deficit is the fat burning.

I would agree that if glucose is present in the blood stream, it will be used preferentially but once that is gone (and the 50 cal I aim to eat every 15 min does not fuel that full 15 min), the body reverts to pulling fat and glycogen from its stores.

Intriguing theory that you don't digest fat or protein if you consume them with carbs, I've never heard that before & based on my understanding of GI physiology I don't think that's how it works. However I will accept that my understanding of steady-state GI physiology might not perfectly apply, I'd have to read the source of this info.

And as far as what Daniel does, the speed is not relevant so much as the intensity- he is racing so will be riding more intensely than OP for sure. But you have to remember that when someone is untrained to a distance, they are likely going to be riding at a high intensity for them, especially towards the end of the ride. Their speed doesn't tell you that.

My assumption is always that a rank newby needs a different strategy than someone who has the fitness to ride a century without particularly planning to. They are likely to need to eat more.

And you're right, once I got past riding a century as an accomplishment unto itself, I moved to riding them typically as timed events and treated them more as races. If I'm just going out to ride, it's usually going to be a shorter 50-70 mile route, it's just easier to get together a small group and ride those at a decent intensity which typically suits my purposes a little better these days.

gregf83 

I don't disagree that you can ride at low to moderate intensity without eating any carbs. I've ridden a century on just water as an experiment and it was fine. For most riders though I don't think there's any value in eating fat while riding as we generally have plenty of fat stored and no problems accessing it during a ride.

in order for your body to be conditioned to burn a high rate of fat you need a decent level of fitness. Beginner riders without a lot of miles in their legs need more carbs. Fat adaptation comes with training. The OP is looking to ride an 'event' so I would recommend he plan to ingest about 250 Cals/hr of carbs. There is no downside.

Regarding the amount of carbs the body can assimilate, I believe it's roughly 250/hr from one type of sugar and up to 400 or so if you combine sucrose and fructose (https://cookeatcompete.com/uploads/7/...bohydrates.pdf)
Laurens ten Dam burned over 6000 Cals during the 7 hrs of what he described as his toughest day on a grand tour earlier this week, it would be interesting to know what he ate.

Doge

So by any measure he came up 3,000 calories short. Figure he has another 8 hours awake. So if he used 6000 in the race and add 1500 for living and sleeping he needs 7500 in 15 hours. Or 500/hour. I doubt he was doing all that at 400/hr on sucrose and fructose. Post and Pre-ride diets are different, as you saw Froome eating eggs, avo and fish.
Anyway the numbers don't work. I expect absorption is higher and actual burn is lower. They do this 20 days. Something is off.