Doge

I'll respond more directly. That glycogen use up results in lactic acid build up.
It is a significant thing in all long distance cyclists. For an untrained cyclist such as one doing a 1st century or asking how to eat, what happens at mile 20 has a big impact at mile 90. In World Tour pros what happens at 40 affect what happens at 100. Creating ability to go faster early, also creates build-up.

You don't want to use all you available energy if you have untrained legs for 100 mile rides. You likely can't deal with the waste product.

I assumed the OP was a beginner and thought going into all that was pointless. As the OP is riding now - or recovering, it is just us. So it is another reason to eat fat, or defense of my "clueless" statement.

Many know we've been in both competitive rowing and cycling esp TTs. Lactate matters. We have the BSX lactic acid monitor (don't use it much) but lactic acid is a much larger indicator along with resting HR of what the athlete can do. If you feel great and the legs are gone, there is little point in adding fuel. It is over. 90% of the time that is from over cooking early (lactic acid build up).

My advice to the OP who's done by now, was focused at going easy at the start. It is the same for TTs and TTTs. Once warmed up and not worried about fatigue etc, pour on the coals. Doing it too early is a mistake I was trying to spare the OP.

Carbonfiberboy 

Only 40 years? I'm not that fast, but I ride that hard. I'll do a ride again this year, usually in the 90s, 107 miles and 7,000'. I usually have at least an hour of Z4 and 20' Z5 on my short 60-70 mile rides. Don't know what I'll have this year on that particular ride, which is not the toughest ride I'll do this year. I'll eat 400 calories of carbs 3 hours before the ride and then another ~1200 calories of carbs during. In all my years of doing these mountain rides, I've never bonked. I do regularly push it into a pre-bonk state on shorter rides by simply riding my guts out for 4 hours and eating very little, on purpose. Always good to know where one's limits are. My best average in my early 60s on a 150+ mile ride with over 9000' was a hair over 16. The record for that course is 19.25 mph.

But wow, you're talking average speeds much faster than the pros who only manage ~20 mph on mountain stages. Pretty amazing, especially when your riders don't fuel like the pros do.

SylvainG

Why not just use maple syrup?

Zurichman2

I am starting to get amused that everybody thinks their way is the right way. Everybody is different and that is what the training rides are for to figure out what works for you.

Some drink Scratch
Some Gatorade
some eat peanut butter
some use gels

I have run the gammit I did a unsupported 100 mile training ride this early spring when it was only around 50 - 60 deg. F outside on a bottle of water and a bottle of ice tea. Would I recommend that to anybody heck no. I bonked the last 5 miles or so. I know what works for me. Gatorade doesn't,gels don't.

I started about a year or so ago eating fig bars every 5 miles(using a bento box on my top tube), drinking a bottle of water first followed by a bottle of Accelerade(2 scoops in a Polar bottle. If I am doing an unsupported ride I did a 2-3 mile cool down towards the end of the ride to help flush the lactic acid out of my legs. On an organized ride I might ride a couple of miles afterwards to accomplish the same thing. I drink chocolate milk within the first 30 minutes for recovery and if it's been a hard ride I do a warm shower followed by as cold as water as my legs can stand as it works the same as the icing principle. When I know I am bonking on a ride I use Ice tea V8 or other things I have found over the years that works for me. I have read and have done this before on hot rides. Taken boiled potatoes with some oil on them so the salt sticks to them and used that for a salt substitute putting them in a zip lock bag. I also have carried Little Debbie brownies, Cliff Bars, sweet and salty granola bars, and chocolate chip granola bars. I never drink or hardly ever drink anybody's sports drinks on supported rides.

This is what has worked for me but I am not going to tell anybody else that this is what you have to do.

I hope our OP had a blast on his ride and everything worked out for him and he post here how his ride went. I still remember my first century ride some of which was I got lost 2 miles from the finish line and have been lost on the bike ever since.

Zman

gregf83 

It's a little messy. I like it on french toast before a ride though

Heathpack 

@Carbonfiberboy, I eat carbs like you describe a few hours prior to a long ride or a race. (Intentionally nothing prior to a ride <3hrs, in order to maximally train fat metabolism). However 15-20 min prior to a TT, I eat a gel with 100 cal of carb and either 40mg or 100mg caffeine. Just as a counterpoint to your comment that no one eats carbs immediately prior to riding. I do. In that one scenario.

@Doge, your take is interesting as always. I have an interesting perspective in that by nature of my professional training, I am pretty well-versed in the various energy systems of the body and the specific biochemical steps involved in each and also how they interact with each other. I also do a lot of long intervals in which you have time to think, although my brain is so fuzzy that I can barely think, so having the physiology knowledge as something I use everyday really helps there. There are moments in training when a light bulb goes off and I understand what I am feeling in my body on a biochemical level. <I absolutely could be full of **** on this, I'll be the first to admit it. I might just think I know what is happening and really have no clue. I'm pretty self aware at least. >


But between the power data, my resp rate/quality, and then shortly thereafter what I feel in my legs, I am pretty certain that I know when lactic acid is accumulating in my body. It accumulates not because you consume carbs but because you are riding right at threshold. When you are doing that, whether you eat carbs or not, you're going to be burning carbs- either stored glycogen or carbs you ate pre-race.


Metabolically you get rid of lactate by aerobic metabolism. You just back off a hair and the lactate gets shunted into aerobic metabolic pathways and burned as fuel. What's left is acid and you have buffer out the acid and in addition manipulate your body's acid-base balance by blowing off C02 (which functions as an acid in the body), which is why one element in your assessment of where you are relative to your "edge" is resp rate and quality. I know how that resp rate/quality feels when my body is attempting a respiratory fix to a metabolic acidosis by blowing off excess C02. I also see my patients do the same thing, and I know that's what they're doing because I can measure their acid-base balance. It was an a-ha moment for sure the day I recognized that same resp pattern in myself during a TT interval and knew exactly what my body was doing and why.


To me, the art of riding a good TT effort is in finding that edge and manipulating my own processing of lactate, which is the rate limiting thing in a TT (well actually the acid is, but it comes bundled with lactate). I never want to ride an effort in a TT so hard that I can't get rid of that lactate by backing off in a minuscule way. The only exception being if I have a climb followed by a descent and I know on the descent I will have many seconds of pure aerobic metabolism to process that lactate.


So I spend a lot of time at threshold, feeling my way around my own processing of lactate. I can't speak to mass start races but in a TT you can for sure avoid excessive accumulation of lactic acid by riding in a disciplined manner. The power meter is, as Ex says, the secret sauce for TTs because it gives you another variable to monitor in finding this edge. Additionally, when you sit at threshold for long periods of time, you train up metabolic pathways for processing lactate and also become better able to tolerate it mentally and manipulate it my manipulating your effort. Its a process for sure- physiologically, mentally/psychologically and also learning/intelligence-wise- but the more you do it and understand what you're doing, the better you become at it.


TL/DR my basic point being carbs don't cause lactic acid accumulation. Riding over threshold produces lactic acid, failure to process it causes accumulation.

Maelochs

Different strokes, Okay? Carbonfiberboy (he is an elderly (which means older than me, even) fitness nut who certainly knows his stuff. And the program he suggests certainly sounds like what I have used most successfully.

Doge, like many here, has also been cycling for many decades.

I will day this, Mr. Doge---"bonking" does not refer to having the caffeine cycle through. It is, as CFBoy stated, using all your glycogen. Your body can still burn fat, but that is a slooooow process. Great for going long and slow, terrible if you want to finish the last hour of a four hour ride in an hour instead of two. It is a crappy feeling .... but a quick shot of sugar followed by some carbs can alleviate it ( couple gels will get you going, then something to back them up.)

Also ...i have read about fat-metabolism. people do need to train for it, and it doesn't work for every situation/sport because it simply cannot provide the quick bursts of energy that carbs provide. Great for a distance swimmer or an ultramarathoner because your body cannot store much carbs but can store a lot of fat (twice as much on the stomach/intestines calorically) and it lasts longer.

On another hand .... I recall when the guy who designed Ferrari's F1 cars put a computer sensor on the rear suspension for the first time (this was about 40 years ago when this was groundbreaking.)

This guy had designed numerous championship winning cars across a few decades. His remark--"It turns out I had no idea what the wheels, tires, and suspension were actually doing during a race."

So .... maybe what you are doing nutritionally, which works for you ... isn't the only way and maybe not even the best way? Maybe it is one way, and works best in certain situations, and not in others? or maybe it is the best for a few select people but not for all ... as CFBoy's methods might be also.

By the way ... the idea that "A road rider (road bike, paved roads) will not deplete glycogen if you don't start with caffeine, or carbs and ride < 15mph average (assuming flattish course)." is another gross absurdity.

Maybe a road rider at a certain level of fitness .... but the idea that no one would burn glycogen if they didn't take in caffeine but would if they did ... totally made up. The idea that they wouldn't burn glycogen if they didn't eat carbs but would if they did? Totally made up.

I did some fasting/training a couple years back to both lose weight and encourage my fat-burning (it used to work for me really well when I was younger.)

I found out is doesn't work the same any more. And I found that could really bonk---not because I did caffeine or carbs, but because I burned all of my readily available fuel. And back 13-15 mph was my pace ... I where I live, "hill" is the incline of the driveway.

Not saying you are 1900 % wrong ... just saying that I have about as many decades of riding as you and have come to different conclusions. Also, my eating habits while and before riding have changed a lot in that time.

Hopefully, if I haven't learned proper nutrition, I have learned not to be quite so dogmatic .... all the time.

Enjoy the ride--however you enjoy the ride.

Carbonfiberboy 

Heathpack - Absolutely agree with everything. Yes, for a TT that gel will give you an edge. Lactate build and burn happens just like you say. I've been able to keep up with youngers for years by using that knowledge and feel. And breathing is also what I go by. More accurate than HR or PM because it's getting rid of CO2, which is the sign of anaerobic respiration which produces more CO2 than aerobic. Many people don't realize that breathing rate is a function of blood CO2, not O2. IOW when you're panting, it's not because you don't have enough oxygen. You always have enough oxygen. It's about needing to get rid of CO2.

SylvainG

It's liquid, therefore can be put in a water bottle, no mess.

gregf83 

I'm sure it works fine. I'll save it for toast and pancakes.

Heathpack 

Honey is actually one of my endurance riding secret weapons.

If you cut honey with lemon juice, it flows quite well. You can load it in a Hammer flask and add that to water bottles instead of electrolyte solution. Or I suppose in addition to. But the main reason I'd use honey is to add calories to my water without the electrolytes. Bottle after bottle of electrolyte solution can upset my stomach. Honey gives my gut a break.

You can pack a lot of calories into a Hammer flask, so it's useful for situations in which you really are running out of space on the bike and your body for all the calories you might need. And honey lemon water actually tastes pretty good.

Doge

This is not a racing or performance thread. It is how best to eat for an 8 hour walk.
(Edit Add: You may/may not have noticed a couple weeks ago I was recommending on facebook a rider go to sugar. Someone added ... and amino acids and I added caffeine. The key point was racer and it was a shorter event. So I agree with everything a few are posting.
But not for the OP. I think several posts are way off the OP mark. )

However, to your point, well, yea. But how will a neophyte know? That can happen in 30 sec.

In the gym a trained lifter can get the burn way before an elevated HR. A lifter stimulated with a few cups of coffee and a high carb breakfast (assuming morning lifting) even more. That is a great way to lift. Send same person in after eating an avocado, and eggs and no coffee and their intensity - and burn, and lactic acid is lower.

That morning workout will affect what they can do 2-3 hours later. By design, a good workout will make you less able to ride after.

Riding an eight hour ride, punching it on an early hill can cost an untrained rider.

So when we give advice to a person who does not know how to eat on a 1st century ride - I think they should be de-tuned at the beginning. They should not get carbo digestion going, spike insulin, or do anything that they may pay for later if they don't continue to feed the beast and...building excess lactic acid being too inspired too early is also not good. They will do a better time using carbs and stimulants late in the ride vs early.

I think you know I get and measure lactic acid accumulation, as I get caffeine, as I measure SPO2, as I measure O2 concentration as I measure VO2 max (and power) ... I don't have formal or professional training. I just have done this a long time, had a good test subject and know some people.

Carbonfiberboy 

I have the exact opposite opinion, both from my experience and from helping others get started riding. Newbies need more carbs, not less. Becoming fat-adapted is a long process requiring dedicated, knowledgeable training. And a century bike ride is not a walk. It's a difficult undertaking for a newbie, not something to sneeze at. They need every advantage they can get, and a steady carb intake is certainly an advantage. It's really easy to fail. That's why the old adage was "Eat before you're hungry" and why event rest stops serve almost entirely carbs. Those events attract a lot of newbies. An experienced rider doesn't eat unless they're hungry, the exact opposite of what a newbie needs.

Machka 

So how did it go?

Machka 

My background includes:

Centuries - 101
200K - 34
300K - 20
400K - 13
600K - 7
1000K - 1
1200K - 4

And what I've said above works for me.

Maelochs

It does seem Doge has some specialized training information which suits a very specialized situation which he is really excited about, and thus he is trying to adapt it to all kinds of situations---and it it plainly doesn't fit, he then ties to change the situation to fit his eating regimen.

Best part is the OP read the first few entries and headed out. We are here fighting over misunderstanding and pride while the OP is riding his bike.

The best part of all this? Almost everyone who reads this either knows enough about him- or herself, about cycling, about nutrition, and/or about human foibles, to be able to decipher all this. That person will probably Google the topic, read three web pages, integrate all the useful bits, and be gone ... totally ignoring which poster here promoted which eating schedule.

I did most of my longest rides back before I had reliable internet. I just used two simple ideas--take on food and water before you need it (not that I thought I would die, but still there is a period between hunger and thirst. replenishment, and returning to homeostasis, and that 15 minutes of discomfort can be avoided by eating and drinking early and the simpler "eat if hungry, drink if thirsty" which is useful if the periodic early fill-ups are insufficient.

I am sure quite a few posters here did their first long rides with no more research than that.

The other thing is: This is an Experience for the OP. No matter what happens he will remember it and learn from it. if he bonks and has to stop at a convenience store for some calories, he will tell that story. If he hardly eats and rides home with his jersey pocket packed full of food, he will tell that story. Whatever .... he will learn some stuff and experience some stuff and have some stories to tell.

I have never heard of anyone starving to death on a century ride.

Machka 

Speaking of first centuries ...

https://www.bikeforums.net/long-dista...100-miles.html


And after my first, which I talk about in that thread ... I went on to experiment with a whole bunch of options until I settled on what worked for me.

Heathpack 

@Doge, intensity is not related to speed. It's a measure off how hard someone is working relative to their lactate threshold. People are so used to the FTP concept that they only think in terms of threshold at an hour. But there's actually a succession of decreasing lactate thresholds at various time points: one minute, 5 min, 20 min, 1 hour, 4 hours, 8 hours etc. When people are trained to a duration that threshold moves up. Thus when people are untrained at a particular time duration, they are working closer to threshold & the effort is more intense. This is why a newby century rider would be smart to follow fueling principles of someone racing, even though their speed is lower.

I am well aware that you measure and observe various physiologic parameters in your son. But measuring lactate (say) and attributing its rise to the correct thing are two different issues.

Fat is a more slowly metabolized fuel. Thus, when you begin about of exercise your body taps glucose/glycogen first (it's more quickly available) and fat as fuel becomes available shortly thereafter. This is part of the reason racers warm up prior to intense activity and century riders are warned to not go out too hard. If OP had asked pacing advice, he would have gotten it I'm sure.

The presence of glucose in the bloodstream or eating carbs is not what causes that initial spike in lactate, it's going out too hard. Like I said previously, if your body needs to burn glucose because it immediately needs energy, it's going to burn it from muscle glycogen if that's what's available or from blood glucose if that's what available. If the effort is too hard, lactate will accumulate. If the effort is not too hard, you will be using glucose but lactate will not accumulate.

You have previously mentioned several times "something about insulin" (to paraphrase). Insulin "spikes" in the non-exercise state because it's the hormone that is responsible for telling the body to STORE glucose- it signals fat cells and liver cells to pick up that floating excess glucose and put it away for later. The normal state during exercise is that insulin levels are low, which is a signal for the liver not to take up glucose and for fat catabolism. It would be possible for insulin to spike if you ate carbs just prior to exercise (which no one here has recommended and is why racers who eat a gel prior to a race typically do so in an exercised state- is during their warm up). Insulin does not "spike" during exercise because insulin responses are different in catabolic (energy-using) and anabolic (energy-storing) states.

As to your comments on racing, I think racing is relavent to untrained century riders because of my comments in the early part of this post. They definitely do not need to understand the nuances of how you manipulate lactate my feel. However I was responding to your comment that it's hard to get these hot young U23 kids to NOT go out too hard. Again, I can't speak to what they should do in a mass start race. But in a TT, hot young U23 kid or not, the correct advice is to regulate your effort, not to avoid carbs because they lead to lactic acid accumulation.

I agree with @Maelochs that this thread has gone beyond what OP needs to know for his ride, which is over anyway. But good discussions are interesting things in their own right and since the OPs event is over and he has no need for this thread staying on topic, I see no harm is the discussion wandering. People who aren't interested in the subject or who have heard enough, don't need to read the later posts, that part is simple enough. However my suspicion is that this discussion will just go in circles from here- with you invoking the argument that "I have 40 years or experience, a hot young U23 son, I know people and I measure things!" and my invoking the counter-argument "I understand the physiology and use it everyday and actually personally ride these efforts so speak from first hand experience!". I say this not out of disrespect for you, you know I enjoy the exchange. Just recognizing that at some point, neither of us are actually adding new information, we're just spouting our beliefs and interpretation of our beliefs. And at that time it makes sense to stop.

RichardR1015

So I have an update for anyone that cares. We ending up riding 70 miles total (one of the people I was riding with got sick and couldn't keep going) at an avg. of 15.6 mph. This ride was a great thing for me because it tought me a few things about myself and my "current" ability.

I could do 100 (painfully) if I had to but my legs aren't ready. At about 60 miles my butt, taint and back started hurting (just general discomfort) from being in the saddle too long. While my legs didn't cramp, they were very sore and tired (muscle fatigue) when I got to about the 60 mile mark. I took and ate 4 gels, 2 protein bars and trail mix. Not to mention all the water I drank. Didn't seem to be hungry or cramp at all so that's a good thing.

Jumping from 40-50 to 70, was like when I jumped from 10 to 30. It was a huge stride and took some serious getting used to. I will continue to do 60-70 mile rides to get my body used to it before attempting a 100 miler. I will also toy around with my food while doing so.

The original use of this thread was to learn about nutrition and I got some great pointers from serveral of you. I think I should have brought more to eat and will probably shoot for around 200 calories an hour next time. Thanks to everyone for the help.

Machka 

Yes ... and excellent.

That is the general recommendation. Get up to 50 miles, do that a few times. Make 60 miles your next goal. Do that 2 or 3 times. Make 75 miles your next goal. Do that a couple times. And then you might consider a 100 miler.

You might also want to sort out some fit issues.

Stratocaster

Heathpack (and others), thanks for all the info - I'm eating it up! (no pun intended).

A couple more questions:
My weekly group ride starts at 9:00. In order to eat 2-3 hours before the ride would mean I'd have to eat at 6:00 or 7:00. But I have to take my thyroid meds on an empty stomach and wait an hour after that, which would mean I'd have to get up around 5-6:00 to accomplish this. That's too early to get up - especially after working 5 twelve hour days prior to that morning. All that so that I can ask:
What happens if I eat 1 hour before a 50 mile spirited ride?
Obviously, I'm not going to die or anything like that - I'm just looking for the technical answer (all that burning glycogen stuff - haha). I typically will eat and egg sandwich
and some oat meal to fuel up for the ride. Is that a bad idea?


Also, in regards to the CO2 expulsion:
I have noticed that sometimes (although not for my past couple of rides) there comes a time during the last quarter of the ride when I'm going hard and I take a deep sigh/exhale - it's like my body is telling me, "you have just reached the point where your performance will now decrease significantly". It's something I've made a mental note of.
It doesn't feel like a bonk. It's more like I've reached the point of exhaustion...sort of like if I had the breath in me, I could still go...but I don't.
Question 2: Is that deep sigh/exhale my body's attempt at "a respiratory fix to a metabolic acidosis by blowing off excess C02 "?

Thanks again!

Machka 

Bonks aren't an on/off thing ... they're a progression. Might start with feeling a bit irritable. Suddenly your favourite jersey doesn't feel quite right or the other cyclists annoy you. Later you might start feeling a bit dizzy and your energy might not be what it once was. And it keeps going from there until you're fully into a bonk ... a place you definitely don't want to be.

Racing Dan

Did you even read any of the 40 or so replys before you went ? ;-)

When you get used to longer rides you will likely obsess less over food and find you own way. Long ago I left sport nutrition by the road side. These days i do soda, candy bars, cake, PBJs, bananas, digestive biscuits, ... and water. Its just fuel and a little electrolyte. At home I try to get proper food.

Glad you lived to tell the tale

f4rrest

The jump to 70 miles is a more natural progression in training for an enjoyable first century.

I'm sure you'll get one under the belt in the near future.

f4rrest

This makes sense, but I think @Doge has some valid observations. I've done the same rides fasted and fueled by sugars, and I've observed that need to keep fueling the fire once the sugars are started.

Consider that even though there may not be insulin spikes upon consuming sugars during a ride, there will be an increase in blood sugar.

As you know, in chemical processes such as you described, equilibrium can be affected by the relative concentration of the components involved.

It's possible that higher blood sugar could signal the respiratory processes to favor using a higher percentage of glycogen than it would in the absence of as much blood sugar concentration.