Who is fed up with carbon frames?
05-30-17, 10:19 AM
#52
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Steel is iron with some carbon atoms included.
05-30-17, 11:14 AM
#54
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If you're not careful you'll be turned to steel in the great magnetic field where you traveled time for the future of mankind.
05-30-17, 11:23 AM
#55
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Many newer riders (i.e., those who weren't riding high-end bikes back when steel was all there was) would be surprised to learn the rate at which steel frames cracked or otherwise failed. In fact, few, if any, European manufacturers offered any frame warranty at all in those days.
Last edited by JohnDThompson; 05-30-17 at 11:34 AM.
05-30-17, 11:31 AM
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I agree. I believe most lugs used for steel frames are investment cast, a process with which I'm quite familiar. If you ever want to see a piece of metal with a bunch of flaws, from voids to contamination, check out an investment cast part. Luckily, most of that is all hidden under the paint so just like carbon fiber you never see those flaws.
05-30-17, 11:51 AM
#57
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Great bikes, even though assembly of each Trek was time-consuming in the early days (frame in one box, everything else in another box; wheels with tension problems due to having been farmed out to folks with arthritic fingers in retirement homes in Waterloo, or so the sales rep told us).
As I said in an earlier post, I don't remember when manufacturers other than Schwinn, Trek, and Cannondale began offering lifetime frame warranties. Trek's short-lived Gitane experiment took place in around 1983, I think. Not sure whether Gitane was already giving frame warranties at that point or whether Bevil Hogg and John Burke leaned on them to do so.
05-30-17, 12:00 PM
#58
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I'm not sure either, but it seems we had an advantage over e.g. Bianchi USA in that we could do frame repair and repainting in-house, reducing the turn-around time. I still have a pile of Simplex dropouts Gitane sent us because of a run of defective dropouts on some of their frames.
05-30-17, 12:08 PM
#59
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I'm not sure either, but it seems we had an advantage over e.g. Bianchi USA in that we could do frame repair and repainting in-house, reducing the turn-around time. I still have a pile of Simplex dropouts Gitane sent us because of a run of defective dropouts on some of their frames.
I wonder where all the framebuilding equipment is now that used to be in the factory. There were a lot of very clever custom in-house designs there, such as the foot-operated multiheaded torch that popped up into position around the bottom bracket.
Last edited by Trakhak; 05-30-17 at 12:12 PM.
05-30-17, 12:52 PM
#60
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There are people here who are real students of bike history---I know only what I've gathered since I started racing bikes in the mid-1960s and managing bike shops in the early 1970s---but I believe that Schwinn was the first company to introduce a lifetime warranty for their bikes.
By the late 1970s and early 1980s, other companies had begun slowly and reluctantly following suit so that they could compete in the U.S. market (I don't know how this worked out elsewhere in the world).
A pertinent story from the mid-1980s---I once asked our Bianchi sales rep how their warranty program worked for the Italian-built bikes: were frames to be covered under warranty shipped back to Italy, or what?
He said that Bianchi USA offered the warranty, not Bianchi of Italy, and that supplying the warranty replacement frames was simply a cost of doing business.
According to him, the people who ran Bianchi in Italy thought it was funny that people in the US expected frame warranties on high-performance steel frames. He was once told, jokingly, "Sure, we can sell you frames with a warranty. They'll weigh 2 kg more, though."
By the late 1970s and early 1980s, other companies had begun slowly and reluctantly following suit so that they could compete in the U.S. market (I don't know how this worked out elsewhere in the world).
A pertinent story from the mid-1980s---I once asked our Bianchi sales rep how their warranty program worked for the Italian-built bikes: were frames to be covered under warranty shipped back to Italy, or what?
He said that Bianchi USA offered the warranty, not Bianchi of Italy, and that supplying the warranty replacement frames was simply a cost of doing business.
According to him, the people who ran Bianchi in Italy thought it was funny that people in the US expected frame warranties on high-performance steel frames. He was once told, jokingly, "Sure, we can sell you frames with a warranty. They'll weigh 2 kg more, though."
I looked at Schwinn's warranty earlier today from in the early 80s and couldn't tell if the lifetime warranty meant the frame too or not after the first year.
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05-30-17, 01:44 PM
#61
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I've owned and ridden some fine steel bikes, but now I own a carbon road bike, a carbon cross bike, a steel mountain bike, an aluminum mountain bike, and a carbon mountain bike and a few steel frames hanging around the garage. Meh, they all ride pretty nicely.
My Trek Emonda rides faster and better than a few of my older steel bikes I had, and it is just as comfortable....lighter too.
My Trek Emonda rides faster and better than a few of my older steel bikes I had, and it is just as comfortable....lighter too.
05-30-17, 01:46 PM
#62
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When I was with Trek, we designed our own investment cast frame fittings, which were cast by Signicast in Milwaukee. Voids and flaws are quite obvious on thin parts like lugs, and were rejected at the foundry. I can't recall a single frame failure that could have been attributed to a casting flaw.
Your last point is basically the same point I was making, though. Despite any 'flaws', the parts still function fine, just like 'flawed' carbon fiber.
05-30-17, 02:51 PM
#63
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About the only negative you can say about CF is that it's not worth the money, although it's only ~$500 more than an alloy frame for CF. Still, it's not like pole vaulting where you don't really have any other acceptable options. It is true that you get less and less value for the dollar by the time you've passed the $3K price point but in my view, while I love my old 853 Lemonds, there's a good reason they both came with CF forks.
05-30-17, 03:03 PM
#64
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Did the OP, eddiepliers, ever verify whether the crack he saw was actually a crack and not a scratch, paint defect, or road goo? Warranty?
A lot of complaints without verifying that the CF is actually a problem.
I do ride CF, Steel, Titanium, and Aluminum. Different bikes for different purposes. My current CF ride is a 20 year old frame purchased used, and rides like a champ, plus I like the vintage lines. I'll eventually get more modern CF.
There are stories of failures of every frame material, with each having a slightly different failure mode. Fatigue vs Impact. Well, lots of examples of impact damaged steel too. RUST (which isn't a problem for CF).
A lot of complaints without verifying that the CF is actually a problem.
I do ride CF, Steel, Titanium, and Aluminum. Different bikes for different purposes. My current CF ride is a 20 year old frame purchased used, and rides like a champ, plus I like the vintage lines. I'll eventually get more modern CF.
There are stories of failures of every frame material, with each having a slightly different failure mode. Fatigue vs Impact. Well, lots of examples of impact damaged steel too. RUST (which isn't a problem for CF).
05-30-17, 03:42 PM
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05-30-17, 04:00 PM
#66
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My next bike will be steel or Ti (prob Ti, due to the weight) but I have had zero issues with any of my carbon bikes. I like the idea of a cool steel bike though, so we will see. On long climbs (for me) like the one I did last weekend, I prefer taking my lightest bikes. I did 64 miles and 5,000 feet of climbing. Most of my rides are not that intense, so a steel or Ti bike would fit in really well, especially if it is comfortable.
05-30-17, 04:51 PM
#67
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6 1/2 pounds is enough weight to make a noticeable difference.
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05-30-17, 06:20 PM
#68
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05-30-17, 06:42 PM
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05-30-17, 10:51 PM
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Not sick of em, owned a couple, and determined I prefer steel and Ti. If I had a lot of money, I would definitely own a super light carbon bike, and I'm sure I would ride it. That said, I do notice a difference between my custom steel and other bikes, and I prefer the custom steel. I have also ridden steel that didn't feel awesome (Jamis Satellite) so it isn't just intrinsic to the material.
05-31-17, 05:25 AM
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If you section the parts, you'll often find small internal voids. It's just the nature of the gravity-fed process. And given that many investment casters are using scrap metal from other processes and adding other metal into the mix to target a specific alloy, the content of the alloy is frequently fairly off from the nominal content for a given alloy spec, frequently at the bottom end of the percentage content for all the expensive stuff in it.
Your last point is basically the same point I was making, though. Despite any 'flaws', the parts still function fine, just like 'flawed' carbon fiber.
Your last point is basically the same point I was making, though. Despite any 'flaws', the parts still function fine, just like 'flawed' carbon fiber.
05-31-17, 06:49 AM
#73
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I'm a big fan of all the main frame materials, each produces a fantastic bike if made correctly. I can never understand haters of one material or the other, they all have something to offer.
05-31-17, 06:55 AM
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05-31-17, 09:08 AM
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i never had a carbon fiber frame. Not impressed with a plastic frame with some embedded carbon fibers. Seems like the first pot hole i hit, a carbon frame would crack. My all out new bike is titanium. Almost all titanium. Not as strong as steel but lighter and corrosion resistant. I don't like paint either so titanium was the best material for me.