garciawork

I think I just lost interest...

Maelochs

based on his previous posts I would have thought Chaadster worked for Breezer ....

elledgedmd

So I got my new S-works Roubaix about 8 weeks ago. The wheels come completely tubeless ready with spoke plugs and tubeless valve stems. It even came with S-work turbo tubeless ready tires. I ran it just with normal tubes for about a month and then decided I wanted to try it tubeless because everything needed to convert was already included.

I removed the rim strip, popped in the spoke plugs and half mounted the tire. I put about an ounce of Orange Seal and then popped the bead on with just my bare hands. I pumped up the tire and it just aired right up. My buddy and I were looking at each other kind of shocked it was so easy, because we'd heard so many nightmarish stories about setting up tubeless. I thought it must have been a fluke, but my other wheel went just as smoothly.

I was able to do the 140 mile Huntsman Ride a couple weeks ago and had zero problems. Last year I got 3 flats doing the same ride with tubes as the roads have tons of thorns and goatheads. My buddy also went road tubeless at the same time I did and we both felt like everything was smoother and rolled better, but it could have just been in our heads.

So in summary, I think companies have finally figured road tubeless out, and I personally think it's here to stay.

Psimet2001 

Like I said - Apologies if you weren't the same. It's pretty typical in this industry to send out shills to forums to back up product right after press releases.

Word on the street has been that the organization is a bit of a sinking ship. I still find that hard to believe personally but they did massively overpay for ENVE at $50M and the 2-4 year downturn industry wide on all hard goods has caused even SRAM to freeze all spending for 2 years and close a brand new manufacturing facility.

Bitterness? Maybe you're reading into it a bit. Any bitterness I have is towards tubeless. It's an idea that some people just won't let go of and will pursue at all costs when the reality of it has just been mediocre to sub-par at best.

I'm sick and tired of having to pick up and wipe off riders at cross races who have been Stans BuKak***d by their crappy tubeless cyclocross setup. "The internet said this would be the best! Why isn't it working?!" You can blame poor setup, incorrect component selection, etc but at some point you just are left with blaming the idea/technology.

Every 4th customer, "Hey so I wanted to upgrade my wheels a couple of years ago so I went out and bought these wicked cool wheels from company____. They ride great and generally I don't have a problem but I have found it's a total PITA to change a tube on them. So much so that I just don't want to mess with them anymore." ...

...."yeah that's because they are a tubeless design. Everything is a bit tighter. You need to get the tire bead into the deep channel in the center of the rim and"....

"-Tube-what? I use tubes with these."
"Yeah, I know but they were designed to be used tubeless as well. That's where you run them without an innertube-"
"I don't want to do that! I just run with tubes. I get like 2 flats a year! It's taking longer to tell this story than it used to for me to change the flats I had!"
"I get it but that's the way the world is going. Sorry."
"You mean I can't just get normal wheels anymore?! I HAVE to use this tubeless crap thing?!! How does it work?!"
"Well you get a valve for it. We already wrap everything for tubeless or tubed use. Put sealant into it-"
"WHAT?! Why? I don't want to mess with that!!"
"It's not hard. We can show you how to do it if you want. Then you inflate it. Make sure everything is sealed so it doesn't blow off the rim killing you, your family and your grandmother's dentist - covering everything in a goey substance."
"What happens if it goes bad on a ride?"
"Oh...you just put a tube in it."
"WTF~!!!!! Why can't I just do that from the start?!"

"Because the industry is smarter than you I guess........want some disc brakes for that bike as well?"
"No...it's a road bike. Why would I need those?!"


It is common knowledge in the industry that all of the big companies are completely stymied. There is no great new ideas. Nothing is pushing sales like it used to. They big guys have destroyed the component iterations striping them of the value they used to carry in the marketplace. Components at even the top end have been reduced to commodities. Everyone is trying everything they can to spur anything to happen.

How can you tell this is another steaming pile of marketing feces from another big company in the industry? Because they claim it has never been done before. Incorrect it has. They don't acknowledge the current state of working technology and address how this is better they simply generalize all existing technology as "not as good". They claim that this will be open standard and yet have led to market with the "technology" only being available on their product and product with their brands on them. Companies that truly want their new "standard" to be utilized and adopted will have multiple industry partners on board BEFORE any announcement of any sort.

By on board i mean with product available. Not to say it's the best example but more like the work done by Chris King with the T47 introduction. Multiple companies in the industry producing competing product from day 1. Not "Our Technology is sooo great! It's the best technology! You've never seen technology like this before! Trust me."

At the end of the day it's simply additional product from Mavic. Only from Mavic. The same company that has pissed off a lot of customers in the past. This product has technology that the average shop selling it won't be able to articulate in terms of benefits to the customer. It will simply come across as, "Oh...I'd say you should buy these wheels." "OK...I Guess" "Oh..but you'll have to get new tires. Only ones from this company will work." "What if I blow a tire and they aren't available where I am?" "Well.....it will probably be OK but they can't guarantee you the other tires will work because they aren't theirs."

Thanks Mavic.

SO yeah...just because it might be interesting on paper the actual application and distribution and control of the idea and technology in the real world and how it will directly impact actual cyclists is really the only measure of a product's worth. If we bought it all from the press releases we would all be riding Mektronic.

Psimet2001 

...and herein lies the problem that we face.

In YOUR area it makes TOTAL sense to try and use tubeless.

BUT.....would you have even considered it if you hadn't gotten 3 flats on that ride or were never faced with goathead thorns? That's the other 90% of the country.

When I was a junior in West Texas I rode with thorn resistant tubes AND 2 layers of Mr. Tuffy. I still would get maybe a flat every week or so. In the midwest and Northeast I can and have gone for years on the same tube with no flats. I can go a season without flatting. Why the f would anyone in that situation ever "bother" with tubeless anything?

They would when: 1 the bike comes tubeless. 2. Tubeless is ubiquitous meaning sealant and standard tires are available everywhere including Walmart. 3. Everyone has it.

...then again we still ride tubulars a TOn and that doesn't make any sense at all. It's almost as though the whole industry and our consumers are completely irrational and led by style and appearance of completely biased fake science.....weird.

Maelochs

Dude .... why don't you have a blog?

Psimet2001 

Wait...I do- I see what you did there.

Meh. Wanted to record a podcast about bro deals and the impact on the industry today but everyone cancelled so I've just been ranting on everything from Armed revolt to tire sizing on cyclocross tires and internal vs external shifting hubs.

...and e-bikes. *shiver*

chaadster

What is irrational about wanting an easy to use, lightweight, fast rolling, self-healing tire which virtually eliminates both the most common type of flats as well as instantaneous, catastrophic flats?

tagaproject6

I believe therein lies the issue. The big companies want new products to sell to consumers that have no vested interest in cycling. The consumers are not growing. (I only believe this in the USA, with absolutely zero data to back it up). The consumers in the USA think of bikes as a toy and a means of exercise.

I honestly believe that the companies who want to sell their bikes should get involved in improving the cycling infrastructure in the USA. It would cost them money at first, but if the consumers start seriously thinking of the bicycle as an alternative mode of ACTUAL transportation, it will only benefit everyone.

When was the last time cycling was in the minds of Americans? The Lemond and Armstrong era? When was the last time that any cycling related ad got placed on TV?

Until the very minimal presence of a cycling culture in America is changed, these companies that sell bikes will continue to decline. Until,maybe, fossil fuels run out...but then again, those electric cars are coming into prominence...the cycling industry better get their asses moving.

San Pedro

2018 Giants with PR-2 wheels seem to be shipping set up as tubeless (at least from *Advanced 2) and the 2017s with carbon wheels shipped with tubeless too.

After my next set of tires, I might be interested to try tubeless, but I'm not going to get new wheels or probably even Mavic tires.

redfooj

maybe i can stop your conversation abruptly because in "my AREA" with 2 pairs of tubeless wheels and going back and forth between different tires tubed and tubeless theres never been an issue of mounting or seating or deep welling ........................

... so your anecdote has a cataclysmic conspiracy and my anecdote everything is perfect. i guess its only a matter of who can shout their story the loudest...

Racing Dan

Imo, Ppl should not change over. Bikes should come tube less from the factory AND there should be only ONE standard that customers could get from every major tyre manufacturer. Exodus will come when all the current "ifs and butts" of current tubeless is eliminated. Until then Im sticking to tubes.

One thing we dont need is companies like Mavic to dream up more "standards" that in reality is proprietary designs, designed to work with proprietary Mavic tyres. It only leads to more expense and less availability.

chaadster

Mavic's system is a free license for anyone to use, and I am absolutely that ther will be USTR tires from every manufacturer just as there are UST tires from every manufacturer for Mavic's MTB tubeless system.

There seems to be this thing that it's cool to hate on Mavic-- I get the classic character flaw profile for "player hatin'" and jealosy of success-- but maybe it's better to keep those comments for emotional threads where there is no need for thoughtful consideration rather than one like this where accurate information is the basis of discussion.

I'm not taking anything away from anyone who wants to hate Mavic because they heard a story about how hard it is to find a Zicral spoke and find that outrageous to their core, or hates Mavic because they hate doing hub maintenaince, it's just that those feelings don't have any bearing on what USTR IS, how USTR works, or what impact USTR will have in the market, the latter of which is the topic of this thread.

redfooj

That's the cost of conversion though. For someone buying a new bike that's already tubeless (or tubeless ready), or buying a new wheelset... theres marginal difference

Racing Dan

I know its free. That does not how ever help, if no one else is using it, or if they all have different, but free, designs, that anyone can use but no one does. I dont hate Mavic. I hate the bike industry for not coming together on a (good) standard on tubeless road. We do NOT need more "standards" we need fewer. Only then does it make sense to even talk about standards in the first place.

Maelochs

Mr. Chaadster, you have to expect emotional reactions when your opening post so highly praised the glories of Mavic's as-yet commercially untested system.

Far from being purely factual and unemotional, your piece read (as Psimet noted) like regurgitated ad copy. If you wanted an unemotional fact-based discussion, you could have started by simply presenting facts and letting people form their own views.

That aside ... no one really knows yet if Mavic's new system will work, what it will cost, how long it might take to get the bugs ironed out, whether it will eventually work for high-pressure 23-mm tires ...

Other topics concerning tire wear and tire cost are big issued. As is noted above, someone who can run just fine with tubes and $35 Cont 4000's doesn't have a problem and doesn't need this solution.

I would say that for Most riders, tubes are not a problem and their tires/tube/wheel situation needs no expensive proprietary "solution."

Tubeless Might be slightly lighter but the tiny weight difference is really only a psychological edge unless people are racing, and have already stripped every ounce off their bikes and have also stripped every gram of fat off their bodies.

And those guys are riding tubulars anyway.

The average recreational rider is not much affected by 50 grams here or there. At all. That's like saying "I'd bring a twin-pack of Fig Newtons for the ride, just in case, but I am not sure if I can handle the hit to my performance on my two-hours, 10-mph cruise on the path around the lake." It just isn't an issue.

Also, tubeless basically becomes "tubed" as soon as you hit a roofing nail or really big piece of glass. So ... where is the big benefit?

That is the question no one wants to ask---what is the Big benefit from running tubeless? For recreational riders—which is 90 percent of riders 90 percent of the time (even racers training) there simply isn't much advantage ... except the much lighter wallet.

As far as I can tell, the Big Problem that tubeless road tiers are meant to solve is "What can we sell to road riders to make more money?" and it is Purely a problem for Manufacturers.

I am sure in some period of time, tubeless road tires and their commercial cousins disc brakes, really will be better than the existing technology. I eagerly await that day. I hope I am still riding, that far in the future.

redfooj

WhyFi

I would say that quite a lot of riders, 'specially new-ish riders, don't know how to change a tube and that eliminating a large percentage of flats would be a welcomed development. Hell, I know how to change a tube and I still think that eliminating a large percentage of flats is a welcomed development. How happy was I when I heard a hiss, felt sealant spray my leg and then heard the hissing stop 5 seconds later? Very.

RJM

You still get flats that don't seal with tubeless and then it becomes a total process to get the tire off and fix the problem, the fix being to stick a tube in it or get a new tire on the rim. Both of these solutions are made much more difficult with tubeless stuff because the tires are on the rims so tight that the average user is going to bust a few tire levers or a rim trying to get the things off.


After having used road tubeless, count me out of it. Tubes are easy and I don't get a ton of flats with them anyway.

chaadster

Designs are not standards, nor are all ways of doing tubeless standards. Insofar as I am aware, Mavic's USTR is the only method to encompass both tire and rim designs and production specs into a system to ensure the compatibility, performance, and ease of use which addresses the faults of tubeless systems as they exist now. Furthermore, it is likely, based on UST's history and adoption as a legal standard in the EU, that UST will also become a legal standard.

Racing Dan

I met one such guy the other day. Walking along the road carrying (!) his bike. Completely clueless. I would argue though, that a guy like him that cant even change a tube is also not likely to succeed with setting up and maintaining tube less. There is nothing inherently easier about it.

WhyFi

I had the same experience that you related earlier - beads locked so tight that I thought that I was going to have to cut the tire off. Instead, I took a breath, swore a lot, and figured it out. Totally doable to break the beads using only your hands. Once broken, getting the bead over the rim has been no different than a non-tubeless setup.

In any event, your primary complaint is that it's too tight because of existing tolerances - isn't this the very thing that Mavic is attempting to address?

Anti-tubeless: The problem with tubeless is that it's too tough to install!
Mavic: Look - we've made tubeless easy to install!
Anti-tubeless: But that doesn't address the main problem of tubeless being tough to install!

Marcus_Ti

Lessening the need to carry a Bead Jack* != addressing the faults of roadie tubeless.

*(Hopefully)


USTR stands about as much chance of being a "standard" as BB30 or PF30 or BB86 or BB90 or BB386EVO or BB92 or BB95 or BB121 or BBright.....

WhyFi

Plenty of people have their LBS change tires for them - sad but true. The LBS could just as easily set up their tubeless. I know one forum regular, who has logged a lot of miles over a long period of time, that runs tubeless and just stops in to the LBS when it's time to replace the worn out tire carcass.

Racing Dan

You are arguing semantics. What good is an open standard if no one, besides the company that invented it, is using it? When (if) the rest of the big wheel and tyre manufacturers come on board we can call it a standard, but until then no compatibility or performance is ensured, unless you stick to only buy Mavic tyres and wheels. That is assuming its actually any good. All we have so far is add copy and a lengthy GCN infomercial.

Lets not repeat what manufacturers did to bottom bracket standards, shall we?