WhyFi

They can be mechanically locked - no sealant necessary. I'd guess that certain combinations are worse than others (which may come back to standards or a lack thereof). In my case, with Giant Gavias and Reynolds Assaults, they were locked the **** on there. Started off with trying to wedge a tire lever between the tire and rim, moved on to standing on top of the tire (as the wheel laid on the ground) and pulling up on the wheel and eventually on to pliers with rubber-lined jaws - none of it worked. I eventually had the idea of rolling the carcass with palm heels, mentioned above, which broke the bead free with relative ease.

In my case, getting them off was not much different than a regular tight tire/rim combo - a one lever affair.

Marcus_Ti

One neat physics thing about tubeless versus tubed....tubeless causes a measurably greater drop in spoke tension when inflated compared to tubed, it isn't massive but it is measurable. Apples-apples. You can quantify it with your favorite spoke tension meter.

Ergo if a wheel build is marginal in terms of strength for a given rider/application...tubeless can put it over the edge compared to tubed.

Maelochs

Yup. Until you have told someone they are useless and then failed to do what they said couldn't be done ... even if it is a 1-in-1000 thing, you have a respect for people who tell those stories.

Usually it is user error. But just to be safe I try not to be too hard on the user ... because "Okay, then You do it" has caught me out.

Anyway ... this new super-magically, earth-shaking, life-changing wheel and tire standard isn't even for sale yet.

I hope no one will think me backward or timid if I decide not to comment on it until it actually commercially exists .. and maybe not even until it has gone through its first several months pf teething issues/redesigns, and has maybe been on the market as a finished product for a while.

There is some relationship between science and data ... Oh, yeah. Until you have a wide sample of real-world data you don't have science, you have baseless opinion. Something like that.

Marcus_Ti

Yup.

A few years back, I had a mate that needed to put a tube into a Hutchinson Fusion 3 tubeless tire on Fulcrum rims back at camp on a multi-day SAG'd tour. He figured he'd be lazy and let SAG at camp handle it....boss of the SAG, man who knows his bikes, laughed when he was warned it would be a bear and was offered a bead-jack saying he could do it bare-handed....

*Funny thing to note...Fulcrum is one of the only 2 brands than makes their rims to the old UST tubeless spec....


40 minutes later, boss wrench had to concede defeat that he couldn't unmount a side of that tire without tire irons....and admitted that the job was in fact a bear even with steel-core tire irons.

nycphotography

Also, tight tire / rim combos isn't just a tubeless thing.

I dropped a set of DV46's w/ Pro Race 4 tires at the shop for truing.... and watched the mech break two tire levers trying to pull the tires.

gsa103

Really? Because most manufacturers have dropped UST-certification. They've gone to a similar design, but it's very difficult to find a true UST tire from anyone other than Mavic. The main difference is that UST does not require sealant, so thicker and heavier sidewalls.

Chandne

I'm okay with a slightly heavier tubeless tire if it is a more durable compound and the bead-to-bead lock is good. I remember the true UST rims and tires in the last 2000s and Mavic made those XM819 rims. The tires has a slightly thicker bead and they locked on well to the UST rims. They were also easy to remove, unlike some more "ghetto tubeless" combos. I'm looking forward to the evolution of road tubeless.

chaadster

UST was intro'd almost 20 years ago. It set the standard, and the tech evolved. If you're holding out for a timeless road tubeless standard, don't hold your breath.

DrIsotope

If I were running tubes, I would have gotten (at least) 2 flats today. Picked up a goathead in the center of the front tire at ~20 miles, popped the thorn out and it sealed instantly, then got another in the transition between tread and sidewall at about mile 50. Pulled that one and a little sealant pimple formed. Zero loss of pressure after both, but would have almost certainly penetrated a standard tube.

Maybe if I lived somewhere that tribulus terrestris didn't grow I could use whatever tire was cheap, and yell at people on internet forums for daring to not use tubes, but I do live where they grow. And there are a helluva lot of them. Tubeless works for me, and I'm not trying to convince anyone to convert. So long as it provides you with fuel to spew hyperbolic vitriol on the internet, y'all do whatever you want.

WhyFi

You're mistake - it doesn't work; they didn't seal. Purely placebo.

DrIsotope

BAMBOOZLED AGAIN

Maelochs

At least you are both big enough to admit you are totally wrong.

Doesn't lend much credibility to your claims, though.

garciawork

Aside from REALLY large glass shards that I missed, and once being way too lazy and riding a bike I hadn't touched in over half a year with dried out sealant, this has been my experience. Both in the Bay Area and now Boise, there are enough small items that would cause punctures and flats in a tubed setup that I will not be going back. But, that is my experience, and I have been fitting tubeless tires long enough to not have issues. If you don't like it, great, more power to ya. Like it? Same deal. But Mavic... blegh. Hearing that it is again delayed, and just being Mavic in general, meh. Yeah, I am a Mavic hater, but after having a number of awesome handbuilt wheels, for WAY less than a heavier proprietary system from Mavic, they have become sour to me.

GuitarBob

What sealant are you using?

Racing Dan

How many punctures did you used to get with tubes, and with what tyres? Usually I can get by with one or even zero punctures in a year on tubed wheels, and Im not particular picky with my tyres, except to get some that claims to have some puncture prevention. I often wonder, if ppl praising tubeless with sealant might have done just as well with one of the "tougher" tyres?

redfooj

probably one of the point is to obviate the need for heavy, stiff, "tougher" tire...

garciawork

I started road riding in Santa Barbara, and not many, however a riding buddy got them often. When I rode a lot of the time on mup's on my
Mtb, is get a puncture every week or two. Since tubeless, I believe I am at 3 total non reparable punctures since 2009.

DrIsotope

Currently TruckerCo Cream. I've previously used WTB TCS Sealant and Stan's No Tubes-- which I'm 99% sure are the same stuff in different bottles. The Cream really does work better, particularly in lasting longer without drying out, and has the added bonuses of coming with an injector that actually works, and being cheaper (20 bucks a liter.) Also seems to have more suspended material, as punctures tend to seal up more quickly.

Racing Dan

I get it. Some ppl get a lot of punctures and switch to tubeless. But what specifically were they riding? I used to ride cheap tyres and got a lot of punctures, but back there was no tubeless and I switched to tyres with some protection and it hasnt been a problem since. All Im contemplating is if ppl switched to something like Michelin pro4 endurance or similar they might do just as well and avoid the hassle of maintaining the sealant and other complexities of tubeless?

DrIsotope

I put in about 3,000 miles on Michelin PRO4 Endurance. I recorded 5 flats during that ~14 week period. Prior to those, Thickslick Urban Elites. Two flats in roughly the same amount of miles but they were instances of savagery-- one was a pallet staple, the other was a shard of glass nearly an inch long. Prior to that, Continental Gator Hardshells. No punctures in 6,500 miles.

See the pattern, though? The tires got successively less terrible to ride on, and therefore the rate of punctures went up. Went to the Maxxis ReFuse immediately after the Michelins, and have recorded zero "non-sealing" punctures in somewhere between 11-12,000 miles. And of course, the Maxxis roll better and feel better than all of the others.

So tubeless is to avoid a pattern of 12-15 flats a year, without resorting to punishingly non-compliant tires.

GuitarBob

Thank you! We get more than our share of flats here in Tucson -- I love cacti, but they do not return that love.

I've only tried Orange Seal so far, which has worked okay -- I'll give TruckerCo a try.

Kapusta

Bingo.

A sealent-based tubless system in many cases alleviates the need for thick, stiff tires.

Not only does sealant deal with most punctures, the lack of a tube means that you can run lower pressures without pinch flats. So you now you can realize the benefits of a light, fast tire at lower pressures.

Racing Dan

So what tyre do you run then and at what pressure? The maxxis refuse mentioned before is not exactly a light, fast tyre?

DrIsotope

Well, just consider that a 700x32 Re-Fuse and a 700x32 Conti Gatorskin weigh about the same, but the Re-Fuse doesn't need a tube, runs ~20psi lower pressure, and rolls so much faster the two are almost incomparable.

Kapusta

I've been running a few different Compass tires (all superlight casings) over the past few years. Very fast, light, and supple as hell, but also very flat-prone. They have all been pinch flats (from the low pressures they allow) and small punctures (from the light casing).

I've been running tubeless in my mtb for many years, so I know from experience that all the flats I have gotten with the Compass tires would have sealed with sealant (or, in the case of pinch flats, would not even happen). It actually takes a pretty big hole not to seal.

I have been wanting to go tubeless with them for a long time, but only recently got tubeless ready rims (WTB KOM). I'll be setting up my Compass Bon Jons tubeless in the next couple weeks (they are tubeless ready).

I don't know anything about the Maxxis Refuse, so I can't comment. However, the Bon Jons are very light and fast (303g for a 35mm tire that actually measure wider). I currently run about 40F and 55 rear. If I go lower in the rear, I risk a pinch flat if I hit some of the potholes or uneven pavement around here at speed (it just happens). Actually, I need to run more like 60 in the rear if I want to be sure of no pinch flats.

However, the particulars of my tires are a bit beside the point. AFAIK, pretty much ANY tire could be "tubeless ready", it is mostly just an issue of the manufacturer using the right bead design. In other words, a tubeless ready tire can be light, heavy, slow, fast, whatever, just like any other tire. Mavic's USTR system may be different if they are supposed to not need sealant. This is a problem with true UST mtb tires: They tend to be thick and heavy, because they have to hold air without sealant.

I was really just responding to the comment that people who are looking to tubeless might be better of with more puncture resistant tires. I am going to tubeless for the very purpose of NOT needing puncture resistant tires and the drawbacks (IMO) they come with.