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Looks like Mavic is changing the tubeless game!

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Looks like Mavic is changing the tubeless game!

Old 06-27-17, 07:01 PM
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Looks like Mavic is changing the tubeless game!

Finally! Mavic's entry into road tubeless is poised to blow the market up, as they've finally addressed the issue of system design standards.

It will be interesting to see how other producers respond, for example, whether they license USTRoad or copy the principles.

Cool days ahead for tubeless riders, anyway.

Mavic unveils complete line of tubeless wheels | Road Bike News, Reviews, and Photos
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Old 06-27-17, 07:13 PM
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Except for those that have written off Mavic, anyway...
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Old 06-27-17, 07:38 PM
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GCN featured this in a vid a couple days ago, too.
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Old 06-27-17, 07:53 PM
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Mavic "fixes" the issue of "standards" by adding another "standard". Sounds like a surefire fix.

Anyone want to take bets on N>0, where N is the number of people willing to pay licensing to Mavic for UST? Granted the patent on the old UST expires sometime soon, but given their silence on the topic-I'll presume the new one will be under a new patent.
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Old 06-27-17, 08:06 PM
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As one of the mechanics at my LBS said with regards to Mavic, "Buy a set of Mavic tires if you want something to make Schwalbe Ones look durable and long-wearing. Getting 600 miles out of a rear would be a high mark for Mavics."

Yet another tubeless offering made specifically for the rider who gets his tires (and everything else) for free as part of his contract.
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Old 06-27-17, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
Mavic "fixes" the issue of "standards" by adding another "standard". Sounds like a surefire fix.

Anyone want to take bets on N>0, where N is the number of people willing to pay licensing to Mavic for UST? Granted the patent on the old UST expires sometime soon, but given their silence on the topic-I'll presume the new one will be under a new patent.

^ this.

There is a defecto standard. Stans No Tubes. Lots of wheels. Lots of tires. Lots of sealers. All work perfectly fine together. Mavic is "fixing" something that already "fixed" itself 5 years ago, by basically unfixing it.
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Old 06-27-17, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by nycphotography
^ this.

There is a defecto standard. Stans No Tubes. Lots of wheels. Lots of tires. Lots of sealers. All work perfectly fine together. Mavic is "fixing" something that already "fixed" itself 5 years ago, by basically unfixing it.
Well...depends on what you mean by "perfectly fine".

MTB and CX tubeless works fairly well great-because low pressure and high volume. Roadie tubeless, well, my LBS dubs it "the sucky kind of tubeless". High pressure and low volume means damage is less likely to seal well.
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Old 06-27-17, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
Well...depends on what you mean by "perfectly fine".

MTB and CX tubeless works fairly well great-because low pressure and high volume. Roadie tubeless, well, my LBS dubs it "the sucky kind of tubeless". High pressure and low volume means damage is less likely to seal well.
Yeah but that's the nature of 700x23 tires and I seriously doubt Mavic's "standard" addresses it.
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Old 06-27-17, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by nycphotography
^ this.

There is a defecto standard. Stans No Tubes. Lots of wheels. Lots of tires. Lots of sealers. All work perfectly fine together. Mavic is "fixing" something that already "fixed" itself 5 years ago, by basically unfixing it.
None of that is true.
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Old 06-27-17, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
Mavic "fixes" the issue of "standards" by adding another "standard". Sounds like a surefire fix.

Anyone want to take bets on N>0, where N is the number of people willing to pay licensing to Mavic for UST? Granted the patent on the old UST expires sometime soon, but given their silence on the topic-I'll presume the new one will be under a new patent.
There are no road tubeless design standards. None.

I'd bet companies will license USTR, both for rims and tires. Mavic is in the game long-term, so their goal is to sell wheels, not a tech system they can't even really control, patented or not, so I don't see any advantage in them making the license excessively spendy. Logs of companies license UST tire specs now, so I don't see why USTR would be any different.

The ease of install and inflation Mavic is promoting will absolutely set the market on its ear.
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Old 06-27-17, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope
Yet another tubeless offering made specifically for the rider who gets his tires (and everything else) for free as part of his contract.
Oh, it's much more than just "another tubeless offering," irrespective of tire wear. Look at that GCN vid on the Mavic system, and you'll understand.

Like most groundbreaking sports tech, launching at the elite level is not unusual, and I'm sure we'll see more durable and versatile tires fairly quickly. A wide, Allroad tire is being released in the first wave from Mavic.

I had Yksion Comps which were very good feeling tires, but did wear quickly.
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Old 06-27-17, 11:04 PM
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I seem to recall a very similar level of infatuation when a certain OP got their first set of Schwalbe Pro ONEs, and I also seem to recall how that turned out. So Mavic made a rim+tire combo that's supposed to be great. Well, I've never had any issues whatsoever mounting my Maxxis tires to any of the 4 sets of wheels I've used, and they last 3,000+ miles while not costing me $70-80 a tire.

We don't need a new wheel+tire system. We need a larger variety of more competitively priced road tubeless tires. Mavic is not filling that need in any way, shape, or form. They are literally not re-inventing the wheel. My current discomfort threshold for tubeless tires sits at $50/3,000mi-- it's already killing me to spend $200+ a year on tires. Mavic isn't even going to land in that ballpark.
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Old 06-28-17, 02:23 AM
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filling tires with hand pump is pretty nice
i like ze mavics
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Old 06-28-17, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster
There are no road tubeless design standards. None.

I'd bet companies will license USTR, both for rims and tires. Mavic is in the game long-term, so their goal is to sell wheels, not a tech system they can't even really control, patented or not, so I don't see any advantage in them making the license excessively spendy. Logs of companies license UST tire specs now, so I don't see why USTR would be any different.

The ease of install and inflation Mavic is promoting will absolutely set the market on its ear.
It will?

I don't use tubeless on the roadie, not because of install or inflation issues...I don't use tubeless on my roadie because I've never had a damaged roadie tubeless tire seal such that I didn't need to stop and shove a tube in it. Whereas CX/MTB tubeless is wonderful. Heck you can tubeless tires that weren't meant for it, it works so well.

Did anyone other than WTB license the old UST standard in all the years it was in existence?
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Old 06-28-17, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster
The ease of install and inflation Mavic is promoting will absolutely set the market on its ear.
Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
It will?
If I were shopping for new wheels/tires, I would certainly see it (the promise of relatively painless install) as a benefit but not necessarily as a must-have; it might sway my decision between two relatively equal options that check all of the major boxes, but I wouldn't be prepared to pay a significant premium solely for it. 20% more? No. 10%? Maybe.
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Old 06-28-17, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by nycphotography
^ this.

There is a defecto standard. Stans No Tubes. Lots of wheels. Lots of tires. Lots of sealers. All work perfectly fine together. Mavic is "fixing" something that already "fixed" itself 5 years ago, by basically unfixing it.
first law of modding cars/motorcycles "if it aint broke, fix it 'til it is"
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Old 06-28-17, 07:47 AM
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Tubeless-Schmoobless. I'll stick with clinchers cuz, well they're easy to maintain and cost effective. I'll save the tubeless for my MTB.
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Old 06-28-17, 08:16 AM
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The foundational questions still haven't been answered: Besides the allure of saying they have it, why does anyone need road tubeless? I understand tubeless off-road but, on the road, tubeless is the worst option.

- Bigger hassle to mount than other clinchers, and messy to repair on the road. (You STILL have to carry a spare tube.)
- And if you don't mind the tubeless hassle and uncertainty of repair on the road, why aren't you riding tubulars?
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Old 06-28-17, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by motosonic
Tubeless-Schmoobless. I'll stick with clinchers...
Tubeless are clinchers.
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Old 06-28-17, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by FlashBazbo
The foundational questions still haven't been answered: Besides the allure of saying they have it, why does anyone need road tubeless?
Mid-ride maintenance is less frequent and I get to pick my battleground (the garage) most of the time.

Originally Posted by FlashBazbo
- Bigger hassle to mount than other clinchers, and messy to repair on the road. (You STILL have to carry a spare tube.)
- And if you don't mind the tubeless hassle and uncertainty of repair on the road, why aren't you riding tubulars?
So, you're saying that the big detractor is the hassle, yet Mavic is allegedly addressing the this. Does this mean that you're on-board?
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Old 06-28-17, 08:48 AM
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my take on road tubeless, having not ran them "hey, if they work well on MTB's, why wouldn't they work well on road bikes?" my current wheels are not tubeless ready, my next wheels will be and frankly I'd like to see wider adoption by the tire manufacturer of making more tubeless road tire options available before I commit to it, but I am intrigued and want to try it.
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Old 06-28-17, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by FlashBazbo
why does anyone need road tubeless?
No one 'needs' these, but modest punctures often seal, which in the middle of a ride is kind of a treat. They are a long way from perfect, but they do offer some advantages along with some modest hassles.
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Old 06-28-17, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster
None of that is true.
On reconsideration... all of that is still true.
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Old 06-28-17, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
It will?

I don't use tubeless on the roadie, not because of install or inflation issues...I don't use tubeless on my roadie because I've never had a damaged roadie tubeless tire seal such that I didn't need to stop and shove a tube in it. Whereas CX/MTB tubeless is wonderful. Heck you can tubeless tires that weren't meant for it, it works so well.

Did anyone other than WTB license the old UST standard in all the years it was in existence?
Mounting and inflation issues are undoubtedly the #1 complaint with road tubeless and probably the main deterrent to broader adoption.

I don't know about rim spec adoption of UST, but tire spec, yes, tons of producers make "UST Ready" tires, which I assume is a licensed label/indication.

I also think UST tires work okay tubeless on standard MTB clinchers, so rim spec is not so critical, perhaps.
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Old 06-28-17, 09:41 AM
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The main thing Mavic did was tighten the tolerances on both the tire and rim to get a better fit. That's not really innovation, and I don't see anyone licensing it.

The biggest challenge of tubeless is that the rim tape needs to be part of the design. Tape thickness is all over the map, so if you don't also spec the rim tape, people are going to have mixed results. I have Shimano sealed rims, getting the tires on is challenging, but everything seals fine.
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