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Few issues. Tire, chain, cassette, prices.

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Few issues. Tire, chain, cassette, prices.

Old 07-07-17, 11:39 AM
  #1  
sillymcnasty
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Few issues. Tire, chain, cassette, prices.

So a few things:

1)I got a Motobecane mirage tour in about Feb or March 2016. Got it, loved it, upgraded from a crappy walmart hybrid. When it hit the winter, I was ghost shifting and the ride itself was pretty miserable. Got too cold, and didn't ride it until this May or so. Rode it about twice, same ghost shifting, and decided it needed a tune up.

Took it to Tony's Bicycles in Astoria, Queens. Paid for a tune up. The guy told me my chain is stretched (showed me with the little tool thing), and I needed to replace the chain as well as the (casette? gears?) or else it will keep shifting gears on its own. Said it would be about 100 dollars.

I decided to wait it out and see if it would shift again on it's own, instead of just spending 100 right there after spending 60 on a tune up. Turns out, since then it has not shifted on it's own.

Since my chain is still stretched, and it doesn't skip, is it worth just replacing the chain only? I tried doing just the chain, but they said you have to change both the cassette and chain together. I'm sure this is a standard practice, but it seems like a money grab, since it doesn't skip.

2) I was leaving work and saw this nasty metal thing in my tire last week. Took that out and went to a shop. They said I would need a new tire, because it was so deep inside and did make a nice opening in my tire as well. I said just change the tube and I'll switch tires on my bike "at home" - which does not exist. Just didn't want to spend all that money up front. It's been about a week of biking every day, and my new tube has held up just fine. Do I need to replace the tire (see attached). A new tire plus tube plus labor woulda been 50 bucks. I would have no way of identifying a nice tire vs a piece of crap tire. Figured I would do research and buy a nice pair and have a shop do the labor for it. Side note: the bike is so dirty because I keep it in the construction area at work. Dust and dirt everywhere.

3)Anyone ever feel like, crap, my chain is bad, I need a completely new bike? I want a wabi classic! I could definitely afford it, but can't really justify the expense beyond just wanting nice things.
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Old 07-07-17, 11:43 AM
  #2  
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The reason you need to change both, is because the cogs are worn. Cogs wear out because you use an elongated chain for too long. Sure you can just replace the worn chain...but if the cogs profile is wrong, it will never match a new chain again--so when you change only the chain it'll skip like hell.

TShard of metal penetrating the tire--you'll want the tire replace. A boot might hold depending on your luck, but it is a better bet just to replace the tire.

Not a money grab at all, if the chain is elongated and the cogs are worn.
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Old 07-07-17, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
The reason you need to change both, is because the cogs are worn. Cogs wear out because you use an elongated chain for too long. Sure you can just replace the worn chain...but if the cogs profile is wrong, it will never match a new chain again--so when you change only the chain it'll skip like hell.

TShard of metal penetrating the tire--you'll want the tire replace. A boot might hold depending on your luck, but it is a better bet just to replace the tire.

Not a money grab at all, if the chain is elongated and the cogs are worn.
Okay thanks.

I would prefer to just buy the parts cheaper and pay for the labor. Might get some dirty looks but I gotta penny pinch here.

Can anyone point me towards a chain/cassette/combo that will suffice for normal riding? (12-13 miles a day)
Also, a set of road tires?

Should I just buy what they came with?
Kenda High pressure road 700x25c, Presta valve tubes
SHIMANO CASSETTE CS-HG20 7-SPEED 12-14-16-18-21-26-32T
Chain KMC Z51 NARROW CN 1/2x3/32"x108L/110L FOR 47-60/62-64CM
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Old 07-07-17, 12:09 PM
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Ghost shifting isn't directly - if at all - related to chain wear.
Ghost shifting is - as the name implies - when the chain begins to move onto another sprocket seemingly by itself.
Chain wear will eventually cause the chain to skip or slip, but while on the same sprocket. Another thing.
Replacing chain only is a so-so thing, once measurement shows obvious wear.
Its hard to predict if it'll work out. As a shop you'll have to judge the advantage of offering the customer a lower price vs the disadvantage of having an unhappy customer returning for follow-up work.

If the tire holds it shape, it'll probably do OK in use.
If its a hole straight through, you might want to patch it from the inside to keep grit from entering and rubbing on the tube.
You might also want to do a search on "booting a tire".
If you don't like spending, why aren't you patching tubes?
Unless you have restricted hand strength, why are you planning to bring tires to a shop for mounting, when you don't like spending?
While there certainly can be particularly stubborn specimens, mounting tires is generally not much to brag about.
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Old 07-07-17, 12:10 PM
  #5  
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Originally Posted by sillymcnasty View Post
I said just change the tube and I'll switch tires on my bike "at home" - which does not exist. ..... I want a wabi classic! I could definitely afford it, but can't really justify the expense beyond just wanting nice things.
You are homeless and you want to buy another bike?



I wouldn't trust the shop.

If they did a tune-up and the skipping stopped ... what would you be fixing? Replacing parts to fix a problem that no longer existed?

Maybe your chain has stretched some---and maybe you will need a new cassette eventually. The pair do tend to wear together. Probably you don't need to replace both after several months of riding unless you really beat the thing.

A little maintenance really helps. Keep the drive train clean and a little lubricated. Also go to YouTube and watch some videos about making adjustments with the inline barrel adjusters.

Also ... sure, you might want to buy a $2 tire boot ... or the tire might not be that bad. If you can ride it and not get flats there .... do so.

Obviously you will need to replace the tire. It might even wear faster at that spot if the edges of the tear abrade. Or maybe not. You might have another six months in the tire. if not, you will know ... and will change the tube, stick in a boot, and be fine for six months.

What you do is up to you. That's what I think i'd do , based on the story you told on the internet.
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Old 07-07-17, 12:13 PM
  #6  
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It's cheaper and faster to learn to do these things yourself. Not only do you save $ on labor, you save the time you would need to spend getting your bike to and from the shop.
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Old 07-07-17, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by philbob57 View Post
It's cheaper and faster to learn to do these things yourself. Not only do you save $ on labor, you save the time you would need to spend getting your bike to and from the shop.
I did some research on changing chains - I actually spent an hour searching thread titled "LBS" and saw people complaining about how people (that do their own work) don't put the chain through their deraiuller properly, etc, or having a tool specifically to change the chain out, etc. Yes, I am the one guy that uses the search function .

@Mae - lmao. My second bike does not exist.

That tire boot looks exactly like what I need! That should work fine. The "hole" is on the side so likely nothing is going to go in it anyway, or hit it directly, so I'll have some of that.


As far as doing my own labor for changing tires, etc. I feel like I would be doing more damage than good, and on something that I'm traveling 20mph on, I would rather trust someone other than myself with these things lol. I don't mind paying for things, I just don't want to be fleeced. What if I use those picks to get my wheel off and then it bends the rim? Or I can't get it back on? Then I gotta roll a wobbly bike to the shop lol.
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Old 07-07-17, 01:17 PM
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Measure the chain directly. If it is elongated more than 1/16" to 1/8" and you're on a 10 speed generation or higher then you will most likely encounter skipping when you swap to a new chain but most likely only in the cogs that you use most often.

"Is it worth fixing now or waiting until everything is trashed?" It's worth not letting it get bad in the first place. Chain is cheap. Cassette is not as cheap. Chainrings are more expensive. Derail pulleys, etc. Just swap the chain and then see what happens. If it works then stay with your cassette.

If the tire is holding and not bulging there with a boot then ride it.
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Old 07-07-17, 01:17 PM
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Replace the chain, then see how the cassette and chainrings work. Replace it now, and prevent damage later. How many miles do you think you've ridden? > 2000? or a lot of wet riding?

A high resolution direct side view photo of the rear wheel (off the bike), and we might be able to estimate the wear a bit, but it is still a bit of a guess.

As far as tire boots, read this thread about booting tires (and other comments).
https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-me...re-damage.html

I have tried the Park boots. They worked for a while, but mine wore through the tube at about 500 miles or so and caused a flat. And, later the boot itself also got a hole in it, and it disintegrated when I tried taping over the edges. Anyway, ok for short term, but not good for a permanent repair.

rm -rf suggested using sailcloth to boot the tires, and gluing it in place. I haven't tried it, but that sounded like a good idea.

I have used a Radial Tire patch (inside) plus standard rubber patch (outside) for a sidewall repair with some success. I had two holes next to each other. One did bulge slightly which I believe was the one with the radial patch, but it was also a tough place to patch. The tire wore out/failed later on the tread, unrelated.
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Old 07-07-17, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Replace the chain, then see how the cassette and chainrings work. Replace it now, and prevent damage later. How many miles do you think you've ridden? > 2000? or a lot of wet riding?

A high resolution direct side view photo of the rear wheel (off the bike), and we might be able to estimate the wear a bit, but it is still a bit of a guess.

As far as tire boots, read this thread about booting tires (and other comments).
https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-me...re-damage.html

I have tried the Park boots. They worked for a while, but mine wore through the tube at about 500 miles or so and caused a flat. And, later the boot itself also got a hole in it, and it disintegrated when I tried taping over the edges. Anyway, ok for short term, but not good for a permanent repair.

rm -rf suggested using sailcloth to boot the tires, and gluing it in place. I haven't tried it, but that sounded like a good idea.

I have used a Radial Tire patch (inside) plus standard rubber patch (outside) for a sidewall repair with some success. I had two holes next to each other. One did bulge slightly which I believe was the one with the radial patch, but it was also a tough place to patch. The tire wore out/failed later on the tread, unrelated.
1300 miles, almost no rain unless I got caught in it (happened a few times) but definitely not a ride in the rain type person. Bike is always locked up indoors. I'll take high res pics when I get home/when it is light out.

The casette and chain on amazon is only 25 dollars combined (7 speed). Bike shop was charging 90 with labor. Wonder how much of that was inventory. I'll see how much the labor is if I provide my own supplies. If it's cheap enough I'll just replace both.
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Old 07-07-17, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by sillymcnasty View Post
1300 miles, almost no rain unless I got caught in it (happened a few times) but definitely not a ride in the rain type person. Bike is always locked up indoors. I'll take high res pics when I get home/when it is light out.

The casette and chain on amazon is only 25 dollars combined (7 speed). Bike shop was charging 90 with labor. Wonder how much of that was inventory. I'll see how much the labor is if I provide my own supplies. If it's cheap enough I'll just replace both.
1300 miles isn't very much to already be killing a cassette. I'd just replace the chain for now, and then consider the cassette later. Or you could order both parts and store the cassette until needed.

There is a lot of overlap between 7 speed cassettes and freewheels. And, a few people advertise the wrong thing. Just double check what is on your bike and what you are buying.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/free-k7.html

$25 for a new chain + new cassette isn't bad.

The shop should be able to tell you their hourly labor charge, but you could well get charged for an hour worth of labor. Talk to them before you show up with your own parts.

Also look up the costs of buying the tools to build your own bike toolkit. Buy the tools once and learn the skills, and future tune-ups are FREE (plus parts).
  • Chain removal
    Chain tool. Pretty universal, at least for 7 speed.
    The Park CT-5 is a solid, relatively cheap chain tool. There are cheaper ones, but the Park CT-5 is good.
  • Cassette Removal
    Cassette Tool (lots to choose from, and so far I haven't found any I don't like). For Park, FR-5.2. Freewheels would be specific to the model.
    Chain Whip (necessary for cassettes, but not freewheels). Just one is needed. Can have other handy features like a hook wrench.
    You also will need a wrench for the cassette tool. I just use a large adjustable wrench.
  • General tools like Allen Wrenches and Screwdrivers are also handy
  • Wheel Hub Maintenance. If your hubs use cones, then cone wrenches are handy. You might not need them now, but they'll be handy later.


I'd encourage you to check your shifting and derailleur stops if you replace a cassette, or a wheel, although perhaps it isn't vital if you get an exact match for your old parts.
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Old 07-07-17, 06:04 PM
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I'd start with buying a Shimano CN-HG71 6/7/8-Speed Chain and a chain tool like the Park Tool CT-5 Portable Chain Tool. (like CliffordK mentioned)

Watch a couple of videos like
and replace the chain yourself. It's pretty simple and definitely worth having the tool and know how to do it yourself, and not wait on a shop and pay shop rates for pretty easy work.

At 1,300 miles use, it's unlikely that you need a new cassette. And since that is one (small) notch more complicated, I'd just do the chain and get the confidence from that success.
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Old 07-08-17, 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
I have tried the Park boots. They worked for a while, but mine wore through the tube at about 500 miles or so and caused a flat. And, later the boot itself also got a hole in it, and it disintegrated when I tried taping over the edges. Anyway, ok for short term, but not good for a permanent repair.

rm -rf suggested using sailcloth to boot the tires, and gluing it in place. I haven't tried it, but that sounded like a good idea.

I have used a Radial Tire patch (inside) plus standard rubber patch (outside) for a sidewall repair with some success. I had two holes next to each other. One did bulge slightly which I believe was the one with the radial patch, but it was also a tough place to patch. The tire wore out/failed later on the tread, unrelated.
I use an old inner tube cut into square patches and layer them with glue, the thicker the patch is, the harder it is to penetrate. Then glue them into the tyre. Does the same job and doesn't interfere with the inner tube after x number of miles being made from the same material.

1 single inner tube can make alot of patches and you can cut them into any size you want.

Last edited by trailflow1; 07-08-17 at 02:57 AM.
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Old 07-08-17, 06:14 AM
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As far as doing my own labor for changing tires, etc. I feel like I would be doing more damage than good, and on something that I'm traveling 20mph on, I would rather trust someone other than myself with these things lol.[/QUOTE] Understandable. I am a ten-thumb mechanic ... and my thumbs are clumsy.

However, I also realize that when I push myself a little to try to overcome minor fears .... otherwise, my whole life is bounded by a tiny fence of tiny fears, which i can step over with just a bit of effort. Basically, bike mechanicing is so basic anyone can learn the basics.

And you had best learn, or have good cell-phone coverage. Sooner or later you Will get a flat. If there is no one you can call for a ride ... pushing a bike is a drag.

Changing a tire isn't rocket science. if you Really think about it, it is a lot less complicated that tying shoes. No joke.


Originally Posted by sillymcnasty View Post
I don't mind paying for things, I just don't want to be fleeced. What if I use those picks to get my wheel off and then it bends the rim? Or I can't get it back on? Then I gotta roll a wobbly bike to the shop lol.
Two things here.

First, if you are paying someone to tie your shoes you are either Bill-Gates rich or you are getting fleeced.

Second---this is where the irrationality of your position is too readily apparent (and I do not mean that in a demeaning, but hopefully in a helpful way.) That is sort of like saying, "I want to tie my own shoes but I am afraid i will tie a noose, fling it over a beam or tree branch, and hang myself."

It simply cannot happen. Shoelaces would break ... and so will tire levers. Your rims are almost certainly metal, but even if they are carbon fiber ... they are stronger than a tire lever (and I have a nice set of steel-core levers---broken too many plastic levers.) You simply Cannot bend a rim with a tire lever.

If you could, your rims would have to be so weak they couldn't hold up your weight.

Think about it.

Not saying you have to live or think any particular way. We will accept you on your terms. But we will comment ...

And believe me, if you enjoy riding a bike, you will enjoy it more when you are confident you can change a tire. And you will Not be happy when you get a flat 15 miles from home and there is no one who can pick you up ... or you have to spend $50 for a cab ride, and then the driver refuses to put your bike in the trunk.

A Practical suggestion. Get a ruined rim out of the dumpster behind the bike shop. Get a tire and tube. (Or ask the shop staff to save you a ruined rim, if you prefer.)

Take it all home and practice. Mount and remove the tire and replace the tube a few times ... pump it up, to make sure you did it right ... do it until you realize that you can do it.

Whatever ... if you like riding a bike, do it, and do it on your terms. I'd rather you do what you like than that you stress over it, so if changing a tire is too stressful, don't.

We are all different ... about the only thing most of us here have in common is we are, or are nearly, human and we like riding bicycles.

If that description fits you, welcome aboard.
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Old 07-10-17, 08:47 AM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post

However, I also realize that when I push myself a little to try to overcome minor fears .... otherwise, my whole life is bounded by a tiny fence of tiny fears, which i can step over with just a bit of effort. Basically, bike mechanicing is so basic anyone can learn the basics.

And you had best learn, or have good cell-phone coverage. Sooner or later you Will get a flat. If there is no one you can call for a ride ... pushing a bike is a drag.

Changing a tire isn't rocket science. if you Really think about it, it is a lot less complicated that tying shoes. No joke.


Two things here.

First, if you are paying someone to tie your shoes you are either Bill-Gates rich or you are getting fleeced.

Second---this is where the irrationality of your position is too readily apparent (and I do not mean that in a demeaning, but hopefully in a helpful way.) That is sort of like saying, "I want to tie my own shoes but I am afraid i will tie a noose, fling it over a beam or tree branch, and hang myself."

It simply cannot happen. Shoelaces would break ... and so will tire levers. Your rims are almost certainly metal, but even if they are carbon fiber ... they are stronger than a tire lever (and I have a nice set of steel-core levers---broken too many plastic levers.) You simply Cannot bend a rim with a tire lever.

If you could, your rims would have to be so weak they couldn't hold up your weight.

Think about it.

Not saying you have to live or think any particular way. We will accept you on your terms. But we will comment ...

And believe me, if you enjoy riding a bike, you will enjoy it more when you are confident you can change a tire. And you will Not be happy when you get a flat 15 miles from home and there is no one who can pick you up ... or you have to spend $50 for a cab ride, and then the driver refuses to put your bike in the trunk.

A Practical suggestion. Get a ruined rim out of the dumpster behind the bike shop. Get a tire and tube. (Or ask the shop staff to save you a ruined rim, if you prefer.)

Take it all home and practice. Mount and remove the tire and replace the tube a few times ... pump it up, to make sure you did it right ... do it until you realize that you can do it.

Whatever ... if you like riding a bike, do it, and do it on your terms. I'd rather you do what you like than that you stress over it, so if changing a tire is too stressful, don't.

We are all different ... about the only thing most of us here have in common is we are, or are nearly, human and we like riding bicycles.

If that description fits you, welcome aboard.

I guess you're right. I'll get the tools. I have an old wal mart junker that I haven't used since I got my new bike. I'll practice on that.

Attached is my cassette, I have since cleaned it. lol
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Old 07-10-17, 11:50 AM
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Dude i see the problem.... your cassette is two-dimensional. You need a special chain for that. (Well I thought it was funny.)
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Old 07-11-17, 06:17 AM
  #17  
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Sooo is my cassette actually fine or is it worn? It seems fine to me lol
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Old 07-11-17, 06:47 AM
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If your shifting is fine now, don't bother with the chain. 1300 miles seems way low to be replacing a chain, unless you were just out murdering it. The shop seems to be trying to get you to buy as much as possible.

Like someone else said watch some videos on how to adjust your derailleur, lube your chain often enough, and ride on.

I'd totally replace that tire though.
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Old 07-11-17, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by sillymcnasty View Post
Sooo is my cassette actually fine or is it worn? It seems fine to me lol
Your cassette is likely fine.

Your chain was fine when you bought the bike, and it caused no excess wear on the chain. Your chain may be worn now. But even if your bike shop had put on a used, worn chain when you bought the bike, you would not have worn out the cassette in 1,300 miles. Your cassette is very likely fine.
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Old 07-11-17, 09:02 AM
  #20  
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You might want to get a copy of the latest edition of Zinn and the Art of Road Bike Maintenance.

It's a great book. My experience has been that if I do what Zinn says, it works.

I would replace the tire with the metal shard through it.

Install a new chain first and see if it skips. If it does, then replace the cassette.
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Old 07-11-17, 09:41 AM
  #21  
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1. Ghost shifting is not caused by worn chain- skipping is.

2. Chain checkers are notoriously inaccurate, sometimes showing brand new chains as worn.

3. Bike does not have enough miles to generally need a new chain or cassette.

Measure the chain with a 12" ruler. If the links measure 12 1/16" or less from pin to pin then the chain is OK,
especially since it is the more robust 7 speed size. I would guess that the large majority of bikes with 7 speed chains NEVER have them changed.

If you replace anything, make it the rear shift cable, and the loop of cable housing at the rear derailler, as friction there
is a common cause of poor shifting.

If poor shifting continues, have shop check alignment of rear derailler- another common cause.


To summarize: don't replace the chain, replace the shop.
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Old 07-11-17, 11:30 AM
  #22  
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If your bike shop actually told you that a chain would cost you $100 and they don't give you a gold plated chain, they are robbers. I counted 7 gears on the rear cluster in your picture. That is the cheapest chain on the market. Prices go way up when you get to 10 and 11 speed chains. You can buy a 5/6/7/8 speed chain (same one fits all four) of the same brand and type that came on my $3K trike for just over $10 on eBay. Since most newer bikes come with a chain that has a master link, you don't even need any special tools to replace it. If it has no master link you need a cheap chain tool to do the job. Threading the chain thru and securing the master link is way simpler than rocket science. Just memorize how it was there before you remove the old one. Chain $10.25 postpaid KMC X8.93 116 link chain KMC X8.93 6, 7, 8-Speed Bike Chain fits Campy SRAM Shimano 1/2"x3/32" 116-Links | eBay or a less expensive version KMC Z51 for $8.35 postpaid KMC Z51 5/6/7/8-Speed 3/32" Bicycle Chain w/ MissingLink 116L fits Shimano SRAM | eBay

I really like using this chain tool to open chains with a master link. It takes a bit of effort to open the link using pliers and this one does it in about 30 seconds. $9 postpaid Bike Chain Missing Link Open And Close Remover Connector Pliers Tool | eBay and a decent chain tool for removing the pin on chains with no master link or to shorten chains if you need fewer than 116 links $4 postpaid Bicycle Bike Steel Cut Chain Splitter Cutter Breaker Repair Tool Red Handle | eBay Once you buy tools you will have them available for years to come. Some of my bike tools are decades old.
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Old 07-12-17, 12:08 PM
  #23  
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I'll see what kind of chain mine is and buy the correct tool, and a new chain with the same type. Thanks a lot guys.
And it wasn't $100 for just a chain. Chain, cassette, and labor.
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Old 07-12-17, 02:31 PM
  #24  
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The Cassette isn't expensive either. The brands are interchangeable with the chain so Shimano, SRAM, or Suntour will all fit. Remember the shop gets it at wholesale and the price here includes shipping.

11-28 7 speed cassette $12.29 Shimano CS-HG20 Cassette 7-Speed Hyperglide 12-28T Gray | eBay Prices for other versions are not much more.

This gets a little more involved as you need some more tools to replace them (chain whip, and cassette removal tool) You can buy them very cheaply from overseas as I did if you are willing to wait for delivery (15-25 days)
Chain whip and bottom bracket tool $4.39 postpaid 3 in 1 Bike Chain Whip Bottom Bracket Freewheel Wrench Repair Remover Tool Kit | eBay and the lock ring removal tool for $.90 postpaid fits Shimano, the most common one Tool Bike Cassette Removal Bicycle Remover Lockring Repair Freewheel Flywheel | eBay
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Old 07-12-17, 02:36 PM
  #25  
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Yeah I can definitely wait that long, since my bike is in rideable condition anyway. Thanks, I'll order those.
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