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Hit & Run Gopro|Caught

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Hit & Run Gopro|Caught

Old 07-09-17, 07:50 PM
  #26  
adamhenry
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Originally Posted by Philly215 View Post
Hmm. Didn't read all the way through?

"(a) (1) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, except under any of the following situations:"
(a) (1) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, except under any of the following situations:
(A) When overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction;
(B) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway; or
(C) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, parked or moving vehicles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge. For purposes of this section, "substandard width lane" means a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and another vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.
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Old 07-09-17, 07:52 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by DiabloScott View Post
Does Tennessee also have an allowance to pass bikes on double yellow? This is a topic that comes up in cycling safety circles - some people will never cross a double yellow, some see them as suggestions. When the idea is floated to make it legal I usually object.
Where it's not explicitly allowed, it's one of those gray areas of traffic law. No passing ones, and pavement markings related to them are based on sight distances and speeds involved in passing vehicles moving at or near the speed limit.

While some may feel they can't cross them under any circumstances, that was never the language or intent of the law. So, consider, could you cross the double yellow if a boulder rolled down off the mountain and blocked the lane? What about children playing in the road?, how about a dog running down the road? (an actual case I know of in traffic court). So, odds are you've said a few yesses so far, and that brings us to bicycles moving at well below the speed limit.

The reality is that no officer is likely to cite a driver for safely (no approaching traffic) crossing a double yellow to pass a bicyclist, nor for a tractor, dog or whatever except a car or truck moving at or near the limit.
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Old 07-09-17, 08:00 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by adamhenry View Post
(a) (1) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, except under any of the following situations:
(A) When overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction;
(B) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway; or
(C) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, parked or moving vehicles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge. For purposes of this section, "substandard width lane" means a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and another vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.
Got me there. Interesting. Thanks.
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Old 07-09-17, 08:00 PM
  #29  
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To be clear, this is a National Park(way) with a 40 mph speed limit, only recreational traffic and heavily used by cyclists. A couple of years ago someone driving an SUV with a Dartmouth sticker in the rear window clipped my friend while we were riding that same section of the Trace. Lots of talk about this incident locally and I've heard this perp is sporting a Dartmouth sticker (don't know why, he's in his 50's....) Anyway, I've heard that others may have had problems with this guy. Pretty sure he will lose his job, hope he gets jail time as well.
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Old 07-09-17, 08:03 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Where it's not explicitly allowed, it's one of those gray areas of traffic law. No passing ones, and pavement markings related to them are based on sight distances and speeds involved in passing vehicles moving at or near the speed limit.

While some may feel they can't cross them under any circumstances, that was never the language or intent of the law. So, consider, could you cross the double yellow if a boulder rolled down off the mountain and blocked the lane? What about children playing in the road?, how about a dog running down the road? (an actual case I know of in traffic court). So, odds are you've said a few yesses so far, and that brings us to bicycles moving at well below the speed limit.

The reality is that no officer is likely to cite a driver for safely (no approaching traffic) crossing a double yellow to pass a bicyclist, nor for a tractor, dog or whatever except a car or truck moving at or near the limit.
California's handbook says "never drive to the left of the double yellow". Of course emergency situations are exceptions. And yeah, the no passing zones are sized for passing faster vehicles than bikes. What my bicycle safety colleagues are thinking is a distinction between double yellow and no passing, with the No Passing signs meaning not even bikes but the double yellow meaning it's kind of OK. I just don't think that's a good idea. I am especially atuned to this because there are lots of blind curves on my Mountain, and car drivers 1) don't get it and 2) get impatient.



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Old 07-09-17, 08:07 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by SevenTwentyNine View Post
....you'll notice that in this video the road starts to curve to the left creating a blind spot that makes overtaking exceedingly dangerous the closer you get to that apex.
So even though in theory there was plenty of room to pass, at this point in the video, that wasn't the case. Just Just because there was no traffic in sight doesn't mean a car couldn't come around that bend at the wrong time.

.....
Your point might make sense if this were an accident, but that's not the case. It was an intentional assault by a driver who had already made his move to the left to pass, and could have completed doing so safely.

Instead HE CHOSE to intentionally swerve into the cyclist, a criminal assault in every state.

If we follow your logic, anybody could seize the right to coldcock anyone who annoyed him in some way or another. As in "he as blocking the door in front of my apartment building, so I shoved him down the stairs".

Anyone who can't tell the difference between unintended consequences of actions, and intentional assault ...... [deferring to forum rules].
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Old 07-09-17, 08:09 PM
  #32  
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These are the signs that are posted regularly on the Trace
Attached Images
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Old 07-09-17, 08:10 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Bathwater View Post
That didn't look intentional at all.
If it's not intentional then its ****tarded to the point you question if he is fit to drive. Ever.

But no, it wasn't intentional to hit him... it was just intentional to buzz him, the archetypical self important twattish punish pass. With an oops! Oh hey, let's just leave him there because hey nobody can prove it was me. Oops! They proved it was me this time.

Yeah, bike is being ******y taking up all the lane. No that doesn't mean you are suddenly promoted to god of the road and are mandated with teaching him a lesson.

Twattish move, and I'm not sorry for his legal troubles at all. He should pretty much be dragged out back and shot as an example to other dbag twats who think punishing cyclists is acceptable in any way.

And for the record, I'm usually verrry slow to condemn a driver for an accident, because I'm a driver and I try to consider myself in their shoes, and accidents do happen to otherwise decent people.

But this was an intentional punish pass and he flat out hit him and left him for dead.

Not "otherwise decent people", just a plan ol garden variety Dbag.

Shoot 'im.
Shoot 'im in 'e head.
Shoot 'im in 'e head 'til 'e dead.

Last edited by cb400bill; 07-09-17 at 08:57 PM. Reason: bypassing forum censor
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Old 07-09-17, 08:21 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by DiabloScott View Post
California's handbook says "never drive to the left of the double yellow". Of course emergency situations are exceptions. And yeah, the no passing zones are sized for passing faster vehicles than bikes. ....
Taking the most restrictive literal approach to double yellows as meaning no passing under any circumstances, drivers have two choices. They may slow down and be patient, while waiting for an opportunity to pass. OR they may slow down and curse and fume while they wait for an opportunity.

They don't have the option of staying in the lane and simply plowing into whatever is slowing them down.

I'm a firm believer in sharing the road as well as circumstances allow rather than making it some kine of rights based issue. If I'm on a busy road, I'll try to create passing opportunities where I can, but I don't feel guilty if I can't and a driver has to lose a minute or two (it never comes to that, more like 10-15 seconds, especially because they end up catching up to the car ahead almost immediately).
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Old 07-09-17, 08:25 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post

If we follow your logic, anybody could seize the right to coldcock anyone who annoyed him in some way or another. As in "he as blocking the door in front of my apartment building, so I shoved him down the stairs".
What I am pointing out is that you never know who you're dealing once you step out of your front door so it's always best to go through life trying to step on as few toes as possible because everyone has a different level of tolerance before acting out or seeking retribution when they are provoked (or feel provoked) and sadly many cyclists have died pushing that envelope against a motorist.

Your example with the apartment door doesn't entire compare to here because it's lacking the notice element. Almost every cyclist knows that there is existing animosity between cyclists and motorists so as a cyclist you have notice that there is a real possibility for provocation. Cyclists know there are dangerous and aggressive motorists out there.
So with your apartment example, say we add the fact that people generally know this neighbor is a loner and hates people near his property, it would be wise to probably stay way from his door even though you may stand in front of it, that does not mean you must.

Without a doubt what the driver did was wrong. Yes.

I see you guys posting endless pictures of road signs but just because a cyclist "may" use the entire lane does not mean the cyclist "must" use the entire lane. There is room for discretion.
If it takes nothing out of you to ride single file, especially in a section of road like in the video that started approaching a curve making it blind, then why not exercise that discretion and be considerate to your fellow motorists.
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Old 07-09-17, 08:32 PM
  #36  
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FWIW, even passing single file cyclists, given that road and Tennessee's "3 Foot" law, a car would have to venture across the center line. Single or double, a passing car has to move into the other lane.
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Old 07-09-17, 08:33 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by SevenTwentyNine View Post
What I am pointing out is that you never know who you're dealing once you step out of your front door so it's always best to go through life trying to step on as few toes as possible ...
I agree that it's better to get along as you go along, so no dispute there.

Originally Posted by SevenTwentyNine View Post
... Almost every cyclist knows that there is existing animosity between cyclists and motorists so as a cyclist you have notice that there is a real possibility for provocation.
Over 50 years and 100,000+ miles of bicycling all over the country the number of angry motorists I've run into is so small as to be negligible. Yes, some can get impatient, and yes many don't like cyclists, but the number that might resort to criminal assault with as little provocation as these two cyclists on an empty road cause is too small to factor into my daily life.

Had this been a busy road with a steady stream of oncoming traffic, I might have been closer to your side on the courtesy/provocation scale, but and trying to be 100% clear. NO provocation in terms of slowing traffic justifies ADW, which is what this was.
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Old 07-09-17, 08:39 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
They don't have the option of staying in the lane and simply plowing into whatever is slowing them down.
And this is the bottom line.
Regardless what the cyclists were doing, the passing vehicle is responsible for doing the pass safely.
The driver was either:
a) Impaired.
b) Suffering a cranial-rectal injection.

Regardless which it was, he is not fit to operate a motor vehicle.
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Old 07-09-17, 09:01 PM
  #39  
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I have ridden the Trace for about 30 years. Switched to a tadpole trike last year due to knee and balance issues. If I could, I would not go back to a DF bike. I don't care what anyone else rides.

I always ride in the middle of the lane. If hugging the white line, a passing motorist tends to crowd me while passing.

If I am in the middle of the lane, they MUST get in the other lane to pass. I have had fewer issues with the trike. It is wider, and not an ordinary sight.

Leaving the scene makes this look intentional. There did not seem to be any type of indecision, driver seemed to speed up right after striking the cyclist. His life, and finances are gone. Good riddance.
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Old 07-09-17, 09:05 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by BillyD View Post
Oh pulleeze!

What does it matter to be right if you're dead right?
Your sick.
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Old 07-09-17, 09:18 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Philly215 View Post
Hmm. Didn't read all the way through?

"(a) (1) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, except under any of the following situations:"
Also

Persons riding bicycles upon a roadway shall not ride more than two (2) abreast except on paths or parts of roadways set aside for the exclusive use of bicycles. Persons riding two (2) abreast shall not impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic and, on a laned roadway, shall ride within a single lane.
Taking the entire roadway for 2 abreast is little bit silly in itself. Also, clarification on the double yellows is required. Can a motor vehicle pass slower moving traffic on a roadway that has double yellows legally? If not, then taking the entire lane and impeding the normal and reasonable movement of traffic is an offense.

I'm in no way shape or form siding with the driver. Just trying to see it from a non bias perspective. When i go out with friends riding then we have a common understanding that when we check / hear / see traffic we go single file. Someone calls it out.

Obviously this driver committed a disgusting act and should be punished accordingly. But we can't absolve the rider of his responsibility for his own safety and riding in the middle of the road doesn't bode well in that regard.

Last edited by king_boru; 07-09-17 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 07-09-17, 09:36 PM
  #42  
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Old 07-09-17, 09:39 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by king_boru View Post
....But we can't absolve the rider of his responsibility for his own safety and riding in the middle of the road doesn't bode well in that regard.
I agree that courtesy and sharing the road is always any cyclist's (and driver's) responsibility.

BUT

This is a scenic "park" road with narrow lanes and long stretches marked with double yellow. Even a solo cyclist keeping reasonably far right would call for crossing the center line to pass.

So, not being allowed to cross a double to pass a bicycle would impose an unnecessary and undue burden on everybody (I for one, take no joy in pulling a train of frustrated drivers).

By the same token, if crossing the yellow is necessary, even for the most courteous cyclist riding solo and keeping right, riding double or in the middle of the lane imposes no added burden.

Do not read this as saying that cyclists have the right to take the lane, so tough on drivers who don't like it. IMO, sharing roads isn't about rights and rigid principles, it's about situations. This situation is an empty road which has long stretches with no oncoming traffic, and where there's no inconvenience in passing solo or paired cyclists. In THIS situation, I don't see that the cyclists did anything wrong.
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Old 07-09-17, 09:40 PM
  #44  
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In CO the law explicitly gives permission for motor vehicles to pass a bicyclist in a "no passing" zone:


(3) The department of transportation and local authorities are authorized to determine those portions of any highway under their respective jurisdictions where overtaking and passing or driving on the left side of the roadway would be especially hazardous and may by appropriate signs or markings on the roadway indicate the beginning and end of such zones. Where such signs or markings are in place to define a no-passing zone and such signs or markings are clearly visible to an ordinarily observant person, no driver shall drive on the left side of the roadway within such no-passing zone or on the left side of any pavement striping designed to mark such no-passing zone throughout its length.

(4) The provisions of this section shall not apply:
...
(d) To the driver of a vehicle passing a bicyclist moving the same direction and in the same lane when such movement can be made in safety and without interfering with, impeding, or endangering other traffic lawfully using the highway.



Article here, with the relevant traffic code at the bottom of the page: Crossing a Double Yellow - what every motorist should know - Pedal Fort Collins
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Old 07-09-17, 10:13 PM
  #45  
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Whenever I read about things like this I'm amazed we've made it this far as a species. Seriously, WTF was going through that driver's mind?
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Old 07-09-17, 10:20 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Doctor Morbius View Post
Whenever I read about things like this I'm amazed we've made it this far as a species. Seriously, WTF was going through that driver's mind?
Nah! Many of us may from time to time think (dream) about doing something like this. But the vast bulk of us have good internal brakes that keep us from actually doing it.
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Old 07-09-17, 10:40 PM
  #47  
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Double yellow or not, you can only pass when it's safe to do so. Where does an intentional act of mayhem fit into road protocol?
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Old 07-09-17, 11:25 PM
  #48  
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Just so everybody is aware, apparently the guy has done it before. I saw the original post up on ******, and one of the cars following the cyclists (who stopped to render aid, as law and decency ****ing requires,) and told the cyclists that someone (s) else had been hit by a black Volvo on the trace before.

From watching the original video, it's quite clear to me it was an intentional act. (And by the mugshot that dude drinks *a lot*.)

Be careful out there. People is crazy.
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Old 07-10-17, 04:07 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
The riders were in Tennessee and well within their rights to ride two abreast. There is no single file law in Tennessee.
https://www.tn.gov/tdot/article/bikeped-bikelaws
Two abreast is completely permissible and motorists in Tennessee should have no expectation of single file cyclists.

The Natchez Trace Parkway is federal parkland and the driver is likely going to face federal charges. He is in a heap of trouble right now.


-Tim-
^^^This.

It was in a National Park on a desigtnated cycling route.

The cyclist shares NONE of thye blame.
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Old 07-10-17, 04:43 AM
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himespau 
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Hmm, I've always wondered whether a forward mounted cam would catch someone. I still wonder if the victim had been wearing one what it would have shown. Fortunately, it looks like he was able to walk away.
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