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Hit & Run Gopro|Caught

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Hit & Run Gopro|Caught

Old 07-10-17, 04:50 PM
  #151  
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yeah, this is a no-brainer. Cyclists were completely following the law. Driver in the white truck—completely following the law.

News flash: It is ILLEGAL to run into other vehicles, or pedestrians.

You can’t say, “Well, I was in a hurry,” or “I just wanted to pass, or “They wouldn’t move.” it is ILLEGAL to run into other vehicles or pedestrians.

In every freaking state of the Union.

Maybe the guy was not paying attention and pulled back in too soon. Maybe he was aggravated and decided to “buzz” the cyclist. Maybe he was homicidal. That's not my call to make.

The call Everyone including Site Administrators can make is that it is Illegal to run into cyclists. Against the Law.


And yeah, I have fifteen years of commuting in the (at the time) most dangerous cycling city in the nation, and a lot more years of cycling in other towns and cities. I have ridden the roads in about half the states in the nation, and pretty obviously I am still alive.

I know when to take a lane and when to surrender a lane. I know when it is best to let the cars pass, even if I do have to pull over off the road. I can also tell when to let them back up behind me if there Is no safe place to pull over.

I also have been a licensed driver for almost four decades. I know that end of things as well.

I know when it is safe and not safe to pass---and i don’t care if the traffic lights or road signs or lines on the road say to do something, if it is dangerous to do i don’t do it. if the light is green and is broken ad traffic is streaming across ... I don’t go. If I cannot pass safely before a vehicle traveling at any speed a car could possibly travel could close on me, I wait. if I need to cross any kind of line, I do ... a painted line will not protect me, nor will a sign on the side of the road.

And All Of Us are that smart. Just some folks are getting stupid in this thread.

There are no excuses for what that driver did. If he had done it to a pedestrian, or another car, it would still have been illegal, eh?

Anyone on this site who tries to argue that cyclists following every law to the letter deserve to get hit is fine humorist.

But then, I like Monty Python and Bernard Kliban.
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Old 07-10-17, 04:52 PM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by cellery View Post
You also should not drive your car to work on a busy freeway early in the morning. Ever listen to morning radio about all the accidents on the freeway? It's really, really, really freaking dangerous - I mean, look up stats. But just because you could doesn't mean you should. If you read the context of the video, you find that one of the cyclists was basically a beginner - it was their first ride in like 16 years. And this road is advertised in pamphlets as a popular cycling route. It's almost like, how could they go wrong? I mean they probably didn't even know going in that it had no shoulder - or maybe they did, but that's really beside the point. So when I drive my car home from work in the afternoon, I don't take the freeway anymore because I perceive it as too dangerous. I take side roads. But man I get a lot of close calls on the surface streets too. I fully expect I'll either die or be maimed either as a result of driving a car in the city, or riding my bike in the city, or riding my bike on trails. Because it's all life-threateningly dangerous. Guess we should probably all just become shut ins then, or at most toodle down the sidewalk at 8 mph. I'm almost at a loss for what these two could have done differently - since we are now victim blaming as a group. It's sad that bike advocacy has deteriorated to "don't ride those roads -the ones that are supposed to be safe for bikes - you'll live longer".
maybe your experience is different from most of ours, but beginning cyclists are the ones most reluctant to ride on roads as they have been conditioned that anything that fits a car is exclusively for cars.

spare me the rest of the lecture. i fly single engine planes for fun, and sometimes even jump out of them voluntarily. and the worse of all BF horrors - i use headphones when riding.

dont mischaracterize other peoples points so you can joust at windmills. outside of maybe 1 or 2 posts on the first page, nobody blamed the victim, nor advocated against their riding on that road or a road in particular. what could they have done differently? perhaps you havent been reading at all..
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Old 07-10-17, 05:26 PM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by redfooj View Post
maybe your experience is different from most of ours, but beginning cyclists are the ones most reluctant to ride on roads as they have been conditioned that anything that fits a car is exclusively for cars.

spare me the rest of the lecture. i fly single engine planes for fun, and sometimes even jump out of them voluntarily. and the worse of all BF horrors - i use headphones when riding.

dont mischaracterize other peoples points so you can joust at windmills. outside of maybe 1 or 2 posts on the first page, nobody blamed the victim, nor advocated against their riding on that road or a road in particular. what could they have done differently? perhaps you havent been reading at all..
Originally Posted by redfooj View Post

few people "deserve" something. nor does it exonerate the action of the driver. but cmon... this is like a gringo voluntarily and wantonly strolling in a brazilian favela in the middle of night jingling a gold rolex and wearing the glow of an iphone
Sounds like victim blaming to me . She shouldn't have worn that skirt.
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Old 07-10-17, 05:27 PM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
Assume there is a speeding car that is just beyond where you can see.


Ascertain the time/distance it will take you to pass the slow moving vehicle.


Add the distance a speeding car could cover in that time.


add a safety buffer for margin of error.


If the farthest point you can see is farther than the distance you will travel in the pass, plus the distance a speeding car could cover in that time, plus a margin for error, and it's safe to pass.


This is what you're doing, or should be doing, in every passing situation, regardless of yellow or white lines, and regardless of the speed of the vehicle your passing.


Its just that a slow moving vehicle significantly changes the results of the equation, because a car coming like a bat of hell can only travel so far in the very limited time it takes you to overtake a very slow moving vehicle.




What aren't you grasping here?
You aren't grasping that in Texas, at least, the double yellow zones won't allow you enough time to pass. They exist where you can't see far enough to know an oncoming vehicle won't meet you in their lane. If you can see far enough to do what you describe it isn't a double yellow.
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Old 07-10-17, 05:42 PM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by memebag View Post
You aren't grasping that in Texas, at least, the double yellow zones won't allow you enough time to pass. They exist where you can't see far enough to know an oncoming vehicle won't meet you in their lane. If you can see far enough to do what you describe it isn't a double yellow.
this section of TX-16 that is a popular cycling route has double yellows that look like more than enough room to pass a cyclist crossing the line https://goo.gl/maps/oMxMAiDyHmp
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Old 07-10-17, 05:42 PM
  #156  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
yeah, this is a no-brainer. Cyclists were completely following the law. Driver in the white truck—completely following the law.

News flash: It is ILLEGAL to run into other vehicles, or pedestrians.

You can’t say, “Well, I was in a hurry,” or “I just wanted to pass, or “They wouldn’t move.” it is ILLEGAL to run into other vehicles or pedestrians.

In every freaking state of the Union.
Even IF the cyclist was being a A-hol he still didn't deserve to be run down. Crap like this just shows there is a long way to go for drivers and cyclists to be amicable towards each other. Even though this was VERY bad, the publicity is good for cycling and GOPRO. I refuse to believe any police officer would issue a ticket for a safe pass even if it is on a double yellow. The police have discretion and would have to be a natzi to ticket in such a case.


Originally Posted by BillyD View Post
What does it matter to be right if you're dead right?
Like it or not, this is a huge part of defensive driving. You must take the driving environment, your actions, and the possible actions of others all into account. All things considered, was there anything that could have been done to prevent this? I COMPLETELY feel the driver was in the wrong, but if someone was pointing a loaded gun at you would you taunt him?
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Old 07-10-17, 05:50 PM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by memebag View Post
You aren't grasping that in Texas, at least, the double yellow zones won't allow you enough time to pass....

...a CAR. Passing bikes doesn't take as much distance.

The double yellow distances are sized for the 85% speed... which is probably the speed limit.
This is from California's handbook but it's based on national standards and probably the same everywhere.


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Old 07-10-17, 05:59 PM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by daviddavieboy View Post
Like it or not, this is a huge part of defensive driving. You must take the driving environment, your actions, and the possible actions of others all into account. All things considered, was there anything that could have been done to prevent this? I COMPLETELY feel the driver was in the wrong, but if someone was pointing a loaded gun at you would you taunt him?
You are dead wrong---as it applies to this case.

This is not someone pointing a gun at your head. This is a guy setting up as a sniper and shooting random people.

MAYBE if we had seen the five minutes prior to this incident, we might know if there was a safe place for those cars to pass. Maybe if we knew which vehicle blew its horn ... or anything more about the incident.

But ... we have No reason to suspect that the cyclists were trying to instigate the drivers.

The driver in the white truck simply and safely passed. No reason the other driver could not have done the same.

I have to think BillyD's comment was made before he know that the law specifically said bikes could use the entire lane and it was the business of cars to pass when safe.

A I mentioned above, I have decades on the road on bikes. if I didn't know how to coexist I would be crippled or dead. But I have no reason, from watching the video, to assume the cyclists did Anything untoward.

If the law had been as "Far Right as Practicable," then this still would have been Totally wrong and totally the driver's fault ... but I might have said, well, I wouldn't have gone double-file there.

Thing is this is effectively a MUP, and like on any trail, the slower traffic gets the right of way and the quick folks have to slow down. If you don't want to go slowly through the National Park, don't go through the National Park.

It might be the shortest route, but it is still an MUP and you have to accept that you might get stuck behind a cyclist or two.

Think of this: suppose this were a family with a couple kids, and the parents figured this was a safe place to let the kids do some road-riding. They tell their kids "No Matter What, do not cross the double-yellow line. Stay on this side and you are safe."

You cannot expect a younger rider to have the same judgement you or I have ... but they can see a double yellow line. So, cars come up, pull out, pass ... most wave at the nice family. One obnoxious drunk comes up, pulls in behind someone who is patiently waiting for a safe place to pass, and then roars by and clips a kid.

Kid's fault, right? or would you blame the father for taking his kids to a park?

There is ZERO blame on the riders. Even if they were turning back and flashing the finger to drivers behind them---there is ZERO fault to the cyclists. They were on a cycling route.

I am sure none of us except the most deranged and paranoid, expect homicidal maniacs to be out on the road. I know I expect distracted drivers, dumb drivers, drunk drivers, texting, smoking, talking on the phone, yelling at the kids drivers .... but I have No defense against the driver who is willing to try hard to hit me.

Think about it ... if I stay home because I am scared to ride, and die in a home invasion ... is it my fault for staying home?
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Old 07-10-17, 06:03 PM
  #159  
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Why is everyone arguing about the particulars and laws relating to situations that are NOT the same as involved in this incident. There were no issues of congestion, limited sight distances, and all the other fine points folks are fighting over in this case.

It's about as simple, straightforward case as you'll ever see in a traffic incident, and for the life of me, I can't see what the debate is about.
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Old 07-10-17, 06:33 PM
  #160  
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The arrogant perp is talking 'I'm a good man,' Natchez Trace hit-and-run suspect says
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Old 07-10-17, 06:45 PM
  #161  
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
What's he going to say? "Who the **** expected a &*%$ cyclist to have a video camera?"

So, he'll try to spin it anyway he can, and odds are it'll get plea bargained to a misdemeanor anyway. Meanwhile, he's handicapped by his earlier statements, and if he had brains he's listen to his attorney and keep his mouth shut until tole to speak.
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Old 07-10-17, 06:54 PM
  #162  
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Originally Posted by cccorlew View Post
As an educator myself, I'd like to point out this dude is an administrator, not an educator.
As the daughter of an educator, I 100% completely agree with this distinction .

And @Maelochs, +1 to your recent comments above.
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Old 07-10-17, 06:59 PM
  #163  
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Why is everyone arguing about the particulars and laws relating to situations that are NOT the same as involved in this incident. There were no issues of congestion, limited sight distances, and all the other fine points folks are fighting over in this case.

It's about as simple, straightforward case as you'll ever see in a traffic incident, and for the life of me, I can't see what the debate is about.
SOME of this incident was because of road rage, some of that rage may be because the drivers of the two vehicles didn't understand the rules of this particular road, the general rules of passing bicycles, the specific rules of passing bicycles in no passing zones, etc. Some of that rage may have been tempered with better signage on the part of the park. If a cyclist recognizes the conditions that sometimes fuel this rage, they may be better able to ride defensively.

The driver is 100% at fault; the cyclist may have been able to avoid being hit if he were more experienced with traffic safety and road rage. If your objective is not to get hit by a car, you should know how these things happen.
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Old 07-10-17, 07:15 PM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by DiabloScott View Post
SOME of this incident was because of road rage, some of that rage may be because the drivers of the two vehicles didn't understand the rules of this particular road, the general rules of passing bicycles, the specific rules of passing bicycles in no passing zones, etc. Some of that rage may have been tempered with better signage on the part of the park. If a cyclist recognizes the conditions that sometimes fuel this rage, they may be better able to ride defensively......
Every time there a post about an incident like this on A&S folks speculate about facts not in evidence to make some kind of point.

There was NO evidence of provocation, and the white truck (movie stereotypes hold, white = good guy black = villain) didn't seem to have any issues.

Yes, there was a horn, but we don't know who honked, or if it was anger or fair warning of his presence. The park, for it's part does have signage saying bicyclists can use the lane, and drivers should change lanes to pass.

So, WHAT justification do you see in THIS incident It's good that you agree that the driver is 100% to blame, but we don't need look to create possible justifications absent any evidence.

There's a small A&S irony here, since I'm usually the one accused of "blaming the victim" here. But for the life of me, I can't find any fault on the part of the cyclists in THIS situation.

FWIW - I wouldn't be posting this if the situation were different, and there were obstacles to safe passing, or if drivers were unreasonably delayed by rude cyclists who prevented safe passing. But that's NOT the case here, and we don't need to go looking for some kind of fault to explain the actions of an axhole.
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Old 07-10-17, 07:17 PM
  #165  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
You are dead wrong---as it applies to this case.

This is not someone pointing a gun at your head. This is a guy setting up as a sniper and shooting random people. wouldn't that make this attempted murder?

MAYBE if we had seen the five minutes prior to this incident, we might know if there was a safe place for those cars to pass. Maybe if we knew which vehicle blew its horn ... or anything more about the incident.

But ... we have No reason to suspect that the cyclists were trying to instigate the drivers. and no reason to think they didn't

The driver in the white truck simply and safely passed. No reason the other driver could not have done the same.

I have to think BillyD's comment was made before he know that the law specifically said bikes could use the entire lane and it was the business of cars to pass when safe.

Thing is this is effectively a MUP Didn't realize this one, and like on any trail, the slower traffic gets the right of way and the quick folks have to slow down. If you don't want to go slowly through the National Park, don't go through the National Park. makes perfect sense

It might be the shortest route, but it is still an MUP and you have to accept that you might get stuck behind a cyclist or two.

Think of this: suppose this were a family with a couple kids, and the parents figured this was a safe place to let the kids do some road-riding. They tell their kids "No Matter What, do not cross the double-yellow line. Stay on this side and you are safe."

You cannot expect a younger rider to have the same judgement you or I have ... but they can see a double yellow line. So, cars come up, pull out, pass ... most wave at the nice family. One obnoxious drunk comes up, pulls in behind someone who is patiently waiting for a safe place to pass, and then roars by and clips a kid.

Kid's fault, right? or would you blame the father for taking his kids to a park?If I was the father I WOULD blame myself

There is ZERO blame on the riders. Even if they were turning back and flashing the finger to drivers behind them---there is ZERO fault to the cyclists. They were on a cycling route. that would only make them a stereotypical cyclist

I am sure none of us except the most deranged and paranoid, expect homicidal maniacs to be out on the road. I know I expect distracted drivers, dumb drivers, drunk drivers, texting, smoking, talking on the phone, yelling at the kids drivers .... but I have No defense against the driver who is willing to try hard to hit me. and that does appear to be the case here

Think about it ... if I stay home because I am scared to ride, and die in a home invasion ... is it my fault for staying home?
The guy is not right in the head for sure, there is no denying that.
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Old 07-10-17, 07:20 PM
  #166  
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
So, WHAT justification do you see in THIS incident
No justification at all. I look for ways to make riding safer; that includes rider awareness and traffic engineering. Maybe the rest of us can learn something from this incident.

It's not victim blaming to suggest learning how to be defensive.
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Old 07-10-17, 07:22 PM
  #167  
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Originally Posted by Beach Bob View Post
What that driver did is NEVER going to be OK behaviour.

But I can't help but ask why the riders were two abreast on obviously narrow roads?
So cars would go around rather than squeeze between I expect.

Edit: I just saw I'm 160+ posts into this. Sorry, I did not read all of them before posting.
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Old 07-10-17, 07:56 PM
  #168  
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Originally Posted by cellery View Post
How do you know when this is necessary when a driver does this out of the blue without warning?
When what is necessary? And when a driver does what without warning? If you are referring to the hit and run in the video, my comments about pulling off the roadway have nothing to do with situations like that. There is no preventing or recognizing (in a rear view mirror) insanity. My comments were strictly related to letting normal backed up traffic pass or letting someone who won't pass get by without having to cross the centerline.
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Old 07-10-17, 08:22 PM
  #169  
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Originally Posted by daviddavieboy View Post
The guy is not right in the head for sure, there is no denying that.
I don't think attempted vehicular manslaughter would be out of the question here, just impossible to prove, since it involves state of mind. Was this "attempted murder" or just a successful "aggravated assault with a deadly weapon"? As a prosecutor i would pick the charges I could easily prove.
Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
When what is necessary? And when a driver does what without warning? If you are referring to the hit and run in the video, my comments about pulling off the roadway have nothing to do with situations like that. There is no preventing or recognizing (in a rear view mirror) insanity. My comments were strictly related to letting normal backed up traffic pass or letting someone who won't pass get by without having to cross the centerline.
Agree. You cannot defend yourself against insanity because insane do unpredictable things--things sane people would not expect.

What is miraculous to me was that the guy bounced right up. I am sure he felt it once the adrenaline stopped and his body started to take stock of itself ... he will feel terrible tomorrow but what a miracle that he Has a tomorrow.

The sound of the impact was enough to make me shrivel up.

it was no this guy's day to die .... but it was his day to come way too close.
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Old 07-10-17, 08:31 PM
  #170  
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Originally Posted by DiabloScott View Post
SOME of this incident was because of road rage, some of that rage may be because the drivers of the two vehicles didn't understand the rules of this particular road, the general rules of passing bicycles, the specific rules of passing bicycles in no passing zones, etc. Some of that rage may have been tempered with better signage on the part of the park. If a cyclist recognizes the conditions that sometimes fuel this rage, they may be better able to ride defensively.

The driver is 100% at fault; the cyclist may have been able to avoid being hit if he were more experienced with traffic safety and road rage. If your objective is not to get hit by a car, you should know how these things happen.
We can't even be sure it was road rage or intentional with what's shown on the video.

The guy's son says he's an alcoholic. There's a chance he was driving drunk and misjudged the pass.
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Old 07-10-17, 08:35 PM
  #171  
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the story made the NBC nightly news tonight
Video Shows Cyclist Rammed SUV Driver in Hit-and-Run - NBC News
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Old 07-10-17, 08:42 PM
  #172  
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i'm a college professor (the guy who hit and run a cyclist in the video above is not) but occupational status is irrelevant to his actions anyway
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Old 07-10-17, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Deal4Fuji View Post
the story made the NBC nightly news tonight
Video Shows Cyclist Rammed SUV Driver in Hit-and-Run - NBC News
Who wrote that headline? An ESL student? Cyclist rammed by SUV driver or SUV rammed Cyclist would have been a lot more accurate. Cyclist rammed SUV is just a$$ backwards.
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Old 07-10-17, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by adamhenry View Post
Who wrote that headline? An ESL student? Cyclist rammed by SUV driver or SUV rammed Cyclist would have been a lot more accurate. Cyclist rammed SUV is just a$$ backwards.
yeah I wondered about that too, a spin worthy of #45
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Old 07-10-17, 09:13 PM
  #175  
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
It's about as simple, straightforward case as you'll ever see in a traffic incident, and for the life of me, I can't see what the debate is about.
+1. If it was someone's grandma out for a Sunday drive, going as slow as the cyclists, having forgotten to turn off her left blinker, and this guy ran her off the road, I doubt folks would be making all these irrelevant argyments.
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