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Spoke gauge for a Clyde?

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Spoke gauge for a Clyde?

Old 08-27-17, 02:23 PM
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Spoke gauge for a Clyde?

I have my rear hub and rim picked out (32 hole DT 350 + archetype) , but stuck on spokes. I know the double butted are easier on the rim and will absorb blows from potholes, but they also flex more when I mash the pedal. How light can I go and still have a pretty stiff wheel?
I have been prone to using a straight 12 gauge with Brass nipples, but would like a more balanced wheel if possible. What do you guys who build wheels at your shop recommend to a 240 pound Clyde?
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Old 08-27-17, 06:56 PM
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12 gauge is unheard of. I have never seen it offered for sale. What is that, rebar?
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Old 08-27-17, 07:37 PM
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Double butted are actually stronger in actual use than straight gauge.

We use 28 spoke 14/15 Double butted spokes on our tandem with a team weight of 350+/-

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Old 08-27-17, 09:25 PM
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I agree. Double butted.
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Old 08-27-17, 11:19 PM
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I'm running 24/24 DT Swiss Aero Comp; with full kit and jersey pockets stuffed I'm about 230 lbs. With stiff rims this is quite sufficient.
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Old 08-28-17, 05:49 AM
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spoke count, rim strength and depth are what count.
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Old 08-28-17, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by pdedes View Post
spoke count, rim strength and depth are what count.
Pretty sure spoke strength counts too.
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Old 08-28-17, 07:05 AM
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I'm also a clyde (currently heavier than you by >10lbs ) and I've built myself several sets of wheels. Currently on my main road bike are KinLin 30mm rims with Sapim CX Ray spokes 24 front radial and 28 rear 2x. Have had zero issues since I laced them this way for thousands of miles. My gravel bike is KinLin XD-230 29er rims 32 spokes 3x with Sapim Race spokes so 14/15/14 double butted. I've had 1 spoke break there in 3 years of use and it took a hit weakening the middle of the spoke.

Go double butted for sure and no worries if built properly. Tension is key here...under tensioned and your wheels just won't stay true.
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Old 08-28-17, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Masque View Post
Pretty sure spoke strength counts too.
Yes and no. Sure it counts, but nearly all spokes are strong enough to do the job. Spoke don't break because they aren't strong enough;. They break because poor building technique causes them to fatigue in use. Actually it is generally accepted that the narrowest gauge spokes are the most resistant to that kind of breakage. At 170+ lb I use only 20/24 Sapim Laser and CX-Rays. If you want a stronger and stiffer wheel for your heavier weight, then use more of these same spokes, not heavier spokes.
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Old 08-28-17, 08:51 AM
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240lbs isn't that heavy. 28/32 with 14/15/14 DB spokes and a quality hoop like HED C2 should be fine. A few years ago I built a wheelset like this(using White Industries T11 hubs) for a former NFL linebacker. He weighed about 260#, and rode with the finesse you would expect from a football player. He hasn't had any problems with them not being stiff enough, and zero durability issues.
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Old 08-28-17, 09:40 AM
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240 is not that heavy. Many tandems are riding on 14 gauge. Even spoke count is less important on modern carbon wheels. Go 50mm depth. If the riding area is pretty clean from debris consider a 27 mm tubular. I would invest in a top quality spoke. A Sapim cx-Ray or DT aerolite are both thin and don't break. Those in a 50mm carbon rim should do fine. Getting a 32hole setup might be difficult, but they'd work fine unless you are riding cobbles all day, and then they still might work fine.
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Old 08-28-17, 09:50 AM
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Agree. Any 'normal' spoke should be more than fine. At your weight, just verifying that the wheel is tensioned properly may be more important that someone who weighs 160lbs. I'm 190 with a 30lb+ bike...I just rebuilt a wheel with 14/15 gauge drive side, 14/17 gauge non drive side. This seems pretty common as a build, and I really don't think plus or minus <50lbs needs to really be accounted for all that much.
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Old 08-28-17, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
12 gauge is unheard of. I have never seen it offered for sale. What is that, rebar?
they actually make a straight 12, but my memories off, more likely a straight 13 which is still a beast of a spoke.

Originally Posted by pdedes View Post
spoke count, rim strength and depth are what count.
I should be good there then, 32 spokes and a beefed up rim bed on the archetype

Originally Posted by Doge View Post
240 is not that heavy. Many tandems are riding on 14 gauge. Even spoke count is less important on modern carbon wheels. Go 50mm depth.
I can't justify the coin for a Carbon hoop, and not interested in the braking track issues. There are descents here in the Mountains that are 14 miles long, assuming I ever get my fat ass in shape to get back up there, A metal hoop is one less thing to worry about on the way down.

Originally Posted by Grasschopper View Post
I'm also a clyde (currently heavier than you by >10lbs ) and I've built myself several sets of wheels. Currently on my main road bike are KinLin 30mm rims with Sapim CX Ray spokes 24 front radial and 28 rear 2x. Have had zero issues since I laced them this way for thousands of miles.Go double butted for sure and no worries if built properly. Tension is key here...under tensioned and your wheels just won't stay true.
good, I was actually looking a the Sapim 14/15/14

Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
240lbs isn't that heavy. 28/32 with 14/15/14 DB spokes and a quality hoop like HED C2 should be fine. A few years ago I built a wheelset like this(using White Industries T11 hubs) for a former NFL linebacker. He weighed about 260#, and rode with the finesse you would expect from a football player. He hasn't had any problems with them not being stiff enough, and zero durability issues.
thanks , these are the examples I was looking for. I found Sheldons article yesterday where he says the DT Swiss Alpines at 13/15/14 are the ultimate in durability, the 13 gauge head at 2.34mm being a very good match for the typical 2.6mm hub hole drilling, thereby eliminating the stress riser at this point. Only issue is I don't want to buy the whole box of 72 for $85.
I can get the Sapim 14/15/14 @ $36. for 40 of them (2 packs of 20)

Does anyone know if it's possible on a traditional 32 spoke wheel to do a 3X on the drive side and 2X on the non drive, or will the patterns not match up properly?
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Old 08-28-17, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by draganm View Post
they actually make a straight 12, but my memories off, more likely a straight 13 which is still a beast of a spoke.
I'd bet (but not willing to pay for the test) if you had the best 13g spoke you could find it would snap before a cx-Ray or Aerolite.

If you can find the specs on that spoke, compare it.
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Old 08-28-17, 12:18 PM
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I fluctuate from about 200-240. There's nothing special about my wheels. As long as you're looking at a minimum of 32 spokes and they're propoerly tensioned, you should be fine.
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Old 08-28-17, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by draganm View Post
...
Does anyone know if it's possible on a traditional 32 spoke wheel to do a 3X on the drive side and 2X on the non drive, or will the patterns not match up properly?
You can do that.

You are over thinking. A Shimano R500 will work fine for you and are cheap. So will HED Belgium etc.

Bigger tires help.
Not doing out of the saddle sprints help.
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Old 08-28-17, 12:22 PM
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Why buy boxes of spokes when you can buy them individually to the correct size? Maybe cost I guess but I always use BHS personally.

Sapim Force Spokes - $1.30
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Old 08-28-17, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
You can do that.
You are over thinking. A Shimano R500 will work fine for you and are cheap. So will HED Belgium etc.
I've bought plenty of off-the shelf , pre-built wheels, they're ok but i'm just ready for sumtin a little more special. I'm old, beat up, been hit by a car at least once and the pavement many times, I deserve it

Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Bigger tires help. Not doing out of the saddle sprints help.
not doing out of the saddle sprints might help the wheel last a longtime, but it won't help me to want to ride. I know what you mean though, when you start whipping the back wheel left/ right so hard it's starting to skip off the pavement then it's time to let off.

Originally Posted by Grasschopper View Post
Why buy boxes of spokes when you can buy them individually to the correct size? Maybe cost I guess but I always use BHS personally.

Sapim Force Spokes - $1.30
that's actually more, $41.60 for 32, I paid $38. for 40 spokes (2 boxes), which gives me 8 spares

Anyway, thanks to everyone for the help. I just checked out for $249.35 w/free ship. I got the DT Swiss 350 11 speed hub , Archetype rim, 40 Sapim 14/15/14 spokes, and a bag of 50 Wheelsmith brass nipples. Hard to believe, seems like a screaming deal. I remember my first "high end " wheel late 1990's . Well over $300., which is probably approaching $500. in today's dollars.
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Old 08-29-17, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by draganm View Post
Does anyone know if it's possible on a traditional 32 spoke wheel to do a 3X on the drive side and 2X on the non drive, or will the patterns not match up properly?
Why would you want to do that? At any given number of spokes and flange height, there is usually one X number that puts the spokes closest to tangent to the hub flange. That is what you want; it is the purpose of crossing the spokes. There is no reason to have a different X on one side than the other when there are the same number of spokes on both sides. The weight savings would be minuscule. The lone exception is radial lacing on the NDS.
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Old 08-29-17, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
The lone exception is radial lacing on the NDS.
But really there is NO reason to radial lace the NDS. Radial lace the drive side has benefits...but hub manufacturers don't make the DS flange strong enough (most of the time) to allow it.

Radial lacing the DS allows more even tension and makes balances the drive torque.... This is what Mavic's Isopulse lacing is. Interestingly I'd love to know why Mavic uses Isopulse for most of their wheels but not the top most carbon race wheels. Cosmic Ultimate is the only wheel in that series (over $500) that doesn't and none of the CXR wheels do. Then the sub $500 wheels don't use it either.
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Old 08-29-17, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Grasschopper View Post
But really there is NO reason to radial lace the NDS. Radial lace the drive side has benefits...but hub manufacturers don't make the DS flange strong enough (most of the time) to allow it.

Radial lacing the DS allows more even tension and makes balances the drive torque.... This is what Mavic's Isopulse lacing is. Interestingly I'd love to know why Mavic uses Isopulse for most of their wheels but not the top most carbon race wheels. Cosmic Ultimate is the only wheel in that series (over $500) that doesn't and none of the CXR wheels do. Then the sub $500 wheels don't use it either.
The only reason on the NDS is weight saving, small as it is. And I have built wheels with radial DS. They work just fine. I think that the oversize aluminum hub shells are stiff enough to transmit torque to the other side where the crossed spokes are without significant losses.
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Old 08-29-17, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
The only reason on the NDS is weight saving, small as it is. And I have built wheels with radial DS. They work just fine. I think that the oversize aluminum hub shells are stiff enough to transmit torque to the other side where the crossed spokes are without significant losses.
Oh yeah the hub shells will transmit the power just fine...it's the DS flange that's the issue. I'm guessing you'd be hard pressed to find any company that will say it's ok to radial DS lace their hubs. I did it a few years ago and ran the wheels for about 3k miles before ripping the DS flange apart on a set of Formula hubs.
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Old 08-29-17, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Grasschopper View Post
Oh yeah the hub shells will transmit the power just fine...it's the DS flange that's the issue. I'm guessing you'd be hard pressed to find any company that will say it's ok to radial DS lace their hubs. I did it a few years ago and ran the wheels for about 3k miles before ripping the DS flange apart on a set of Formula hubs.
I don't see why. The flanges are the same on both sides of most modern hubs. Why shouldn't the DS be able to be radially laced? Certainly Bitex flanges have identical hubs on both sides, not diameter, but thickness.
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Old 08-29-17, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
I don't see why. The flanges are the same on both sides of most modern hubs. Why shouldn't the DS be able to be radially laced? Certainly Bitex flanges have identical hubs on both sides, not diameter, but thickness.
DS spoke tension is usually quite a bit higher than NDS(except for 8:16 builds). Maybe that has something to do with it.
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Old 08-29-17, 08:21 AM
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Just telling you what I was told and what I experienced. Was basically told that none of them test the hub for DS radial lacing and no one would warranty a hub built into a wheel that way. I scoffed...and then 3k miles later rebuilt the wheels with a new hub 2x having ripped a chunk out of the DS flange.
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