Aluminum Advice
09-17-17, 10:02 AM
#26
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A custom fits better, period.
I think you underestimate the skills of a long time builder.
Frank has built more frames than any frame designer and certainly talked more to people who want bikes optimized for their specific needs.
But it's a big biz with lots of options. People can ride what they wish, and use poor component options to achieve a reasonable fit on an "off-th-peg-4-or-5-sizes-fit-all philosophy". Here this 8mm stem might work; a different seatmast might work better; sorry, we can't swap those bars out for free; let's try a stem with more rise - or more spacers; etc, etc, etc.
I think you underestimate the skills of a long time builder.
Frank has built more frames than any frame designer and certainly talked more to people who want bikes optimized for their specific needs.
But it's a big biz with lots of options. People can ride what they wish, and use poor component options to achieve a reasonable fit on an "off-th-peg-4-or-5-sizes-fit-all philosophy". Here this 8mm stem might work; a different seatmast might work better; sorry, we can't swap those bars out for free; let's try a stem with more rise - or more spacers; etc, etc, etc.
Sorry but Frank doesn't hold a candle to Specialized, Trek, Cannondale...any of the top builders. Why? Because their countless engineers on staff have way more analytic tools at their disposal than 'Frank'.
09-17-17, 10:18 AM
#27
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No...a custom doesn't fit better...many times worse. If you are Shaq a custom makes sense. If you are below 6'6" or so, there is no need. If I had a nickel for every poorly sized custom with a boat load of spacers and riser stems I have seen on the road, I would be rich. Unfortunately most doctors and dentists that ride Seven's don't know much about cycling.
Sorry but Frank doesn't hold a candle to Specialized, Trek, Cannondale...any of the top builders. Why? Because their countless engineers on staff have way more analytic tools at their disposal than 'Frank'.
Sorry but Frank doesn't hold a candle to Specialized, Trek, Cannondale...any of the top builders. Why? Because their countless engineers on staff have way more analytic tools at their disposal than 'Frank'.
If i had a nickel for every off the peg cycle that sits unused in a garage because it doesn't fit, i'd be 10x your 'new found custom' wealth.
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09-17-17, 10:49 AM
#28
Banned
But most components and bolts in them will be chromed steel, and many made only by the component company themselves,
so your goal of rust free bike, in a warm salty marine climate, is not so simple.
so your goal of rust free bike, in a warm salty marine climate, is not so simple.
09-17-17, 11:34 AM
#29
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A further analogy. Malcom Bricklin, John Delorean and General Motors. Bricklin and Delorean who cut his teeth at GM...they were essentially Frank out on their own and btw, both were brilliant men who went on to make their own cars which ultimately failed. Both with all the creative genius of these two men were utter failures. Who made the better automobiles?
Last edited by Campag4life; 09-17-17 at 01:29 PM.
09-17-17, 01:37 PM
#30
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Somebody got soggy cherrios for breakfast this morning...
09-17-17, 01:50 PM
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The bikes I mentioned from 'any' of the name brand bike companies that all started in their garage including Cervelo like Frank that never moved out...would serve the OP better...long inseam, short torso and all. The design engineers on staff have forgotten more about how to optimize moment of inertia and bending in two planes than Frank ever considered. Frank is relegated to straighter tube sections because in the context of Al he doesn't know how to hydroform sections. Even if he did, nobody is smart enough to determine bending with differential sections for different lengths. Then there is connecting these asymmetric members to each other in a way to optimize performance. With due respect to Frank who no doubt is a worthy artisan like many frame builders even more famous, even computer models struggle with all the relationships at play and why prototypes are created and tested copiously specific to frame size which is logistically and fiscally impossible with custom, one off geometries to create the precise balance of ride, handling, stiffness where desired and lightest possible weight that will pass the most stringent durability fatigue and test loading standards. Custom geometries are an educated guess and nothing more. Custom frames are the stone age of bicycle design....a throwback to 30 years ago when tube sections were symmetric when computers and designs were primitive and builders aka artisan's couldn't possibly create the benefit of differential section modulus which makes modern bicycles so wonderful in ride quality, handling and power transfer at such a light weight.
A further analogy. Malcom Bricklin, John Delorean and General Motors. Bricklin and Delorean who cut his teeth at GM...they were essentially Frank out on their own and btw, both were brilliant men who went on to make their own cars which ultimately failed. Both with all the creative genius of these two men were utter failures. Who made the better automobiles?
A further analogy. Malcom Bricklin, John Delorean and General Motors. Bricklin and Delorean who cut his teeth at GM...they were essentially Frank out on their own and btw, both were brilliant men who went on to make their own cars which ultimately failed. Both with all the creative genius of these two men were utter failures. Who made the better automobiles?
And as you said previously unless someone is a real outlier in their body size or proportions they will certainly be able to get a good fit with the plethora of "production" bikes available now.
If they are on a poorly fitting bike it is almost certainly simply because the got the wrong one, not because one wasn't available.
Also I would like to know what this riding style and use is supposed to entail that requires a custom bike?
Sure if you want something weird like a TT bike with rack and fender mounts or something, but generally people want and do things with their bikes that are well catered for in the standard designs.
09-17-17, 02:02 PM
#32
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Absolutely correct.
And as you said previously unless someone is a real outlier in their body size or proportions they will certainly be able to get a good fit with the plethora of "production" bikes available now.
If they are on a poorly fitting bike it is almost certainly simply because the got the wrong one, not because one wasn't available.
Also I would like to know what this riding style and use is supposed to entail that requires a custom bike?
Sure if you want something weird like a TT bike with rack and fender mounts or something, but generally people want and do things with their bikes that are well catered for in the standard designs.
And as you said previously unless someone is a real outlier in their body size or proportions they will certainly be able to get a good fit with the plethora of "production" bikes available now.
If they are on a poorly fitting bike it is almost certainly simply because the got the wrong one, not because one wasn't available.
Also I would like to know what this riding style and use is supposed to entail that requires a custom bike?
Sure if you want something weird like a TT bike with rack and fender mounts or something, but generally people want and do things with their bikes that are well catered for in the standard designs.
09-17-17, 07:05 PM
#33
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Yes, the world really started to change back in early 2000 when another small smart group of people started Specialized and created the 'custom geometry' carbon Roubaix which revolutionized the road bike industry and spawned more forgiving geometries from all major brands for guys without the fitness of Eddy Merckx. Today there are so many different geometries available and companies like Trek even make specific models in two different geometries...H1 and H2. Something for everybody. If you are 6'7" or taller...probably .005% of the human population, the air becomes more rarified and then time to become friends with a custom frame maker....and a custom car shop to move your driver seat back...and a custom tailor for your clothes...a long list for these special people. Btw, the embattled James Comey is 6'8"...tallest guy in politics I believe
Tall headtubes have been around long before Specialized founders were born. Used to be called a Clubman's bike, then Sport/Touring or Fast Touring. Mountain bikers sloped the top tube and Giant brought it to roadies and cut frame sizes to near zilch, to the benefit of their bottom line profitability. But the Rockhopper WAS a great mountain bike for its' time. And the Stumpjumper, too.
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Last edited by Wildwood; 09-17-17 at 07:09 PM.
09-18-17, 04:10 AM
#34
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Phhhffftt
Tall headtubes have been around long before Specialized founders were born. Used to be called a Clubman's bike, then Sport/Touring or Fast Touring. Mountain bikers sloped the top tube and Giant brought it to roadies and cut frame sizes to near zilch, to the benefit of their bottom line profitability. But the Rockhopper WAS a great mountain bike for its' time. And the Stumpjumper, too.
Tall headtubes have been around long before Specialized founders were born. Used to be called a Clubman's bike, then Sport/Touring or Fast Touring. Mountain bikers sloped the top tube and Giant brought it to roadies and cut frame sizes to near zilch, to the benefit of their bottom line profitability. But the Rockhopper WAS a great mountain bike for its' time. And the Stumpjumper, too.
Custom bikes...and lets even throw Rivendell under the bus where they belong with their heavy and overpriced bikes are all pretty much irrelevant. They are really the mechanical watches of modern day. Btw, there is still a demand for a watch with a mechanical movement. Most know better however...but not all. A step up from the sun dial. Only thing custom about these bikes are the frames and the vast majority aren't sized particularly well and end up being a compromise to performance anyway whereby their performance is already compromised by lack of technology. Heck, even Cannondale who has been making Al racing framesets as long anybody has gone through a design evolution that can only be described as remarkable. The difference between a CAAD3 and CAAD12 is night and day. Vast. This is what computers and vigilant teams of engineers can accomplish and the small artisan can't. There is no custom Al frame that has the overall performance of a CAAD12, Specialized Allez, Trek Emond ALR and several other Al frames. Also in the last even 5 years these frames have gone to another level rivaling carbon fiber.
People who buy into the 'exclusivity' of custom frames don't understand the industry. Even an off the shelf straight tube bike like a Lynskey is better which can't hold a candle to the technology of the big brands with all the analytical capability that makes modern bicycles...and automobiles and motorcycles so exceptional.
Last edited by Campag4life; 09-18-17 at 05:43 AM.
09-18-17, 11:57 AM
#38
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Giant didn't cut frame sizes for newly created sloping top tube road bike genre known as a compact frame which increased standover and was a game changer in terms of having increased head tube heights in an effort to save on tooling costs which they did...rather their calculus played into the counter narrative about custom geometries that are unnecessary and have little relevance...in particular all the so called custom geometries where 50% of the owners look like they have never ridden a bicycle before...all the doctors and dentists on Seven's riding around at 16 mph on the local MUP. Rather, they cut frame sizes because they weren't necessary. Sloping top tube bikes fit more riders per each size. Giant btw does make a M and a M/L and currently offers enough frames sizes. They know what they are doing just like all the top brands or top brands fall by the wayside just like your friend Frank who never made it out of his garage unlike the more visionary guys who also started in their garage but because of their genius became monster brands. They made it into the big league unlike Franks who is stuck in his more limited boutique world of yestertech and can't compete with the big guys. Not an uncommon story btw. The genius motorcycle designer Erik Buell fell short. He couldn't compete with any of the big companies like Honda, Kawasaki and Ducati and failed under Harley and Erik Buell knows more about motorcycles than just about anybody on the planet....just like the engineer degreed DeLorean who knew more about automobiles than most that work at a big car company he came from. Point is the companies that make the best bicycles in the world started life like Frank. But they graduated.
Custom bikes...and lets even throw Rivendell under the bus where they belong with their heavy and overpriced bikes are all pretty much irrelevant. They are really the mechanical watches of modern day. Btw, there is still a demand for a watch with a mechanical movement. Most know better however...but not all. A step up from the sun dial. Only thing custom about these bikes are the frames and the vast majority aren't sized particularly well and end up being a compromise to performance anyway whereby their performance is already compromised by lack of technology. Heck, even Cannondale who has been making Al racing framesets as long anybody has gone through a design evolution that can only be described as remarkable. The difference between a CAAD3 and CAAD12 is night and day. Vast. This is what computers and vigilant teams of engineers can accomplish and the small artisan can't. There is no custom Al frame that has the overall performance of a CAAD12, Specialized Allez, Trek Emond ALR and several other Al frames. Also in the last even 5 years these frames have gone to another level rivaling carbon fiber.
People who buy into the 'exclusivity' of custom frames don't understand the industry. Even an off the shelf straight tube bike like a Lynskey is better which can't hold a candle to the technology of the big brands with all the analytical capability that makes modern bicycles...and automobiles and motorcycles so exceptional.
Custom bikes...and lets even throw Rivendell under the bus where they belong with their heavy and overpriced bikes are all pretty much irrelevant. They are really the mechanical watches of modern day. Btw, there is still a demand for a watch with a mechanical movement. Most know better however...but not all. A step up from the sun dial. Only thing custom about these bikes are the frames and the vast majority aren't sized particularly well and end up being a compromise to performance anyway whereby their performance is already compromised by lack of technology. Heck, even Cannondale who has been making Al racing framesets as long anybody has gone through a design evolution that can only be described as remarkable. The difference between a CAAD3 and CAAD12 is night and day. Vast. This is what computers and vigilant teams of engineers can accomplish and the small artisan can't. There is no custom Al frame that has the overall performance of a CAAD12, Specialized Allez, Trek Emond ALR and several other Al frames. Also in the last even 5 years these frames have gone to another level rivaling carbon fiber.
People who buy into the 'exclusivity' of custom frames don't understand the industry. Even an off the shelf straight tube bike like a Lynskey is better which can't hold a candle to the technology of the big brands with all the analytical capability that makes modern bicycles...and automobiles and motorcycles so exceptional.
So the bottom line is only the Big 3/4/5 bike companies make a rig worth riding fast?!? Yeah, right.
Spesh
Trek
Giant.
Smaller builders
**********?I'm not putting down mass marketers, they design good bicycles for the mass market.
Most even QC product from their subcontractors.
And convince many, many riders that this year's model obsoleted last years'.
2% stiffer, 5% more vertically compliant, .0001% more aero, 11 grams lighter.
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Last edited by Wildwood; 09-18-17 at 12:13 PM.
09-18-17, 12:05 PM
#39
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Many left to build a better cycling experience for their clients.
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09-18-17, 12:21 PM
#40
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Hey @Campag4life
I think we stand at different ends of the spectrum.
That's OK it's a big market.
Room for lot's of opinions.
I prefer a bike built for my specific needs and desires.
Call me picky.
If my choices make me 2% slower, so be it.
I think we stand at different ends of the spectrum.
That's OK it's a big market.
Room for lot's of opinions.
I prefer a bike built for my specific needs and desires.
Call me picky.
If my choices make me 2% slower, so be it.
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09-18-17, 12:27 PM
#41
Senior Member
Giant didn't cut frame sizes for newly created sloping top tube road bike genre known as a compact frame which increased standover and was a game changer in terms of having increased head tube heights in an effort to save on tooling costs which they did...rather their calculus played into the counter narrative about custom geometries that are unnecessary and have little relevance...in particular all the so called custom geometries where 50% of the owners look like they have never ridden a bicycle before...all the doctors and dentists on Seven's riding around at 16 mph on the local MUP. Rather, they cut frame sizes because they weren't necessary. Sloping top tube bikes fit more riders per each size. Giant btw does make a M and a M/L and currently offers enough frames sizes. They know what they are doing just like all the top brands or top brands fall by the wayside just like your friend Frank who never made it out of his garage unlike the more visionary guys who also started in their garage but because of their genius became monster brands. They made it into the big league unlike Franks who is stuck in his more limited boutique world of yestertech and can't compete with the big guys. Not an uncommon story btw. The genius motorcycle designer Erik Buell fell short. He couldn't compete with any of the big companies like Honda, Kawasaki and Ducati and failed under Harley and Erik Buell knows more about motorcycles than just about anybody on the planet....just like the engineer degreed DeLorean who knew more about automobiles than most that work at a big car company he came from. Point is the companies that make the best bicycles in the world started life like Frank. But they graduated.
Custom bikes...and lets even throw Rivendell under the bus where they belong with their heavy and overpriced bikes are all pretty much irrelevant. They are really the mechanical watches of modern day. Btw, there is still a demand for a watch with a mechanical movement. Most know better however...but not all. A step up from the sun dial. Only thing custom about these bikes are the frames and the vast majority aren't sized particularly well and end up being a compromise to performance anyway whereby their performance is already compromised by lack of technology. Heck, even Cannondale who has been making Al racing framesets as long anybody has gone through a design evolution that can only be described as remarkable. The difference between a CAAD3 and CAAD12 is night and day. Vast. This is what computers and vigilant teams of engineers can accomplish and the small artisan can't. There is no custom Al frame that has the overall performance of a CAAD12, Specialized Allez, Trek Emond ALR and several other Al frames. Also in the last even 5 years these frames have gone to another level rivaling carbon fiber.
People who buy into the 'exclusivity' of custom frames don't understand the industry. Even an off the shelf straight tube bike like a Lynskey is better which can't hold a candle to the technology of the big brands with all the analytical capability that makes modern bicycles...and automobiles and motorcycles so exceptional.
Custom bikes...and lets even throw Rivendell under the bus where they belong with their heavy and overpriced bikes are all pretty much irrelevant. They are really the mechanical watches of modern day. Btw, there is still a demand for a watch with a mechanical movement. Most know better however...but not all. A step up from the sun dial. Only thing custom about these bikes are the frames and the vast majority aren't sized particularly well and end up being a compromise to performance anyway whereby their performance is already compromised by lack of technology. Heck, even Cannondale who has been making Al racing framesets as long anybody has gone through a design evolution that can only be described as remarkable. The difference between a CAAD3 and CAAD12 is night and day. Vast. This is what computers and vigilant teams of engineers can accomplish and the small artisan can't. There is no custom Al frame that has the overall performance of a CAAD12, Specialized Allez, Trek Emond ALR and several other Al frames. Also in the last even 5 years these frames have gone to another level rivaling carbon fiber.
People who buy into the 'exclusivity' of custom frames don't understand the industry. Even an off the shelf straight tube bike like a Lynskey is better which can't hold a candle to the technology of the big brands with all the analytical capability that makes modern bicycles...and automobiles and motorcycles so exceptional.
09-18-17, 12:31 PM
#42
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I do agree, though, that for Campag4Life's doctors and dentists, a frame from a small builder and a frame from a big company with vastly superior engineering will afford roughly equal bragging rights.
09-18-17, 01:10 PM
#44
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No one said that did they? But as the bikes being mentioned by the OP are 1500 dollar bikes with reasonably good components. Can a custom made bike with reasonably good components be found at that price?
09-18-17, 01:16 PM
#45
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To quote a previous poster, "Custom bikes are...all pretty much irrelevant."
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09-18-17, 01:18 PM
#46
Senior Member
There's no way around it, you're paying more for a similarly specced custom bike. If you're 6'4" with a 28" inseam, and want 9 water bottle cage mounts...custom makes a heck of a lot of sense.
If you're me; IE ~6', normal proportions, if a bit ugly, an off the rack bike will always be cheaper. Always. Probably better too.
09-18-17, 01:24 PM
#47
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Well done. Very enjoyable read.
-Tim-
09-18-17, 01:40 PM
#49
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Anyway, that's what I'm looking for: a reasonably priced bike with good components. On flat roads I see no need for carbon or disc brakes. I don't race, either, so aluminum is fine.
