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Campy off the shelf

Old 10-19-17, 09:08 PM
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Campy off the shelf

Having trouble finding bikes built with campy off the shelf. It's all shimano. What say you?
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Old 10-19-17, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Wspsux
Having trouble finding bikes built with campy off the shelf. It's all shimano. What say you?
there are a few, but the manufacturers know what sells.
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Old 10-19-17, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by noodle soup
there are a few, but the manufacturers know what sells.
Shimano makes inexpensive (as well as higher end). Campy doesn’t make such a low end range so doesn’t get picked when cost is a big criterion.

OP, if you prefer Campagnolo just find a frame, get a group, and build it. You will not be disappointed.
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Old 10-19-17, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by noodle soup
there are a few, but the manufacturers know what sells.
I think there are a few that also sell Shimano/SRAM.

My guess is you'll find more Italian bikes sporting Campagnolo than other brands. Colnago?

I think the Campy would sell, but it depends on how far one pushes down the lineup.
  1. Super Record
  2. Record
  3. Chorus
  4. Potenza
  5. Athena
  6. Veloce
But, then those wanting Campy want the "best", and thus it gets expensive quickly. But, perhaps one could equip a Potenza or Athena bike, and still have a very solid groupset.



I do think Campy would have done well had they merged the wheel technology with Shimano/SRAM. And, they are selling Shimano freehubs on the Campy wheels, but nothing is quite a perfect match.
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Old 10-19-17, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Aubergine
Shimano makes inexpensive (as well as higher end). Campy doesn’t make such a low end range so doesn’t get picked when cost is a big criterion.

OP, if you prefer Campagnolo just find a frame, get a group, and build it. You will not be disappointed.
Great advice. That's what I did and I am happy I did.
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Old 10-20-17, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Aubergine
Shimano makes inexpensive (as well as higher end). Campy doesn’t make such a low end range so doesn’t get picked when cost is a big criterion.

OP, if you prefer Campagnolo just find a frame, get a group, and build it. You will not be disappointed.
Campagnolo used to make cheap products primarily for the domestic market. For example the Valentino line.

As mentioned above, they currently have: Super Record, Record, Chorus, Potenza, Athena, and 10s Veloce. Perhaps add Xenon which may have been merged with the Veloce offerings, although Xenon 9s appears to still be for sale.

Perhaps Campagnolo doesn't descend quite as deep into the abyss as Shimano with the Alivio level, and whatever those parts just marked "Shimano" are. However, they do have a quite a range of offerings.

I think there is some debate how the Campy parts line up with Shimano. Potenza/Athena may line up with 105. Perhaps match 10s Veloce with Tiagra. And Ultegra somewhere between Potenza and Chorus.

I think the problem is that when one gets down to it, the Campy groupsets add at least an extra $100 or so, and in some cases, a whole lot more. They do work very sweet.
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Old 10-20-17, 04:52 AM
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Last I looked, Bianchi had some standard upper-end builds with Chorus, and Raleigh had a standard build with Veloce.
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Old 10-20-17, 04:52 AM
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Same for most of us OP. I have two Specialized bikes for example I have built with Campy. In the town I ride, there are countless Specialized bikes but never have seen another with Campy.

So, if you like Campy, a good chance you will have to build it. Honestly for a guy who works on his own bikes, this is no big deal and with 11s speed, you can even leave many Shimano parts...like rear cassette, and their great cranks and brakesets that I also personally ride.

I prefer Campy shifters all said and really the only reason I ride Campy because I find the competition excepting shifter design to be as good...and in some areas like cranks and brakes...even better. A push on derailleurs...but hard to run Shimano derailleurs with Campy shifters without a Shiftmate.

As to why Shimano is ubiquitous and Campy isn't. This isn't Campy's business model. They aren't a high volume manufacturer and apparently they produce enough stuff to make a profit...they also make great production wheels I ride. They have been around for 80 years or so I believe and longer than the other guys.
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Old 10-20-17, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarch
Last I looked, Bianchi had some standard upper-end builds with Chorus, and Raleigh had a standard build with Veloce.
A bit more common to see Campy come on production bikes in Europe.
Years ago, I bought a Bianchi that came with Campy from a US bike shop.
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Old 10-20-17, 05:17 AM
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The simple fact is that “made in Italy” bike parts could not compete economically with “made in Asia,” and Shimano simply routed Campagnolo as an OEM player. Campagnolo has expanded to be “made in Europe,” but even with their might thrown behind Potenza in a bid to reclaim some OEM placements, it’s target spec is on bikes in the $4k range, which is a fairly lofty pricepoint and really gives you sense of how marginalized the firm has become in the market.

I’ve always loved Campagnolo since the ‘80s for their styling, finish quality, prestige, and sense of heritage, and today ride only Campagnolo on the road, on three bikes which I built up from framesets. As I understand it, Campagnolo is planning to target the premium market as their base, so I’m hopeful they persist and continue to innovate and create lovely components.
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Old 10-20-17, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK

I think the problem is that when one gets down to it, the Campy groupsets add at least an extra $100 or so, and in some cases, a whole lot more. They do work very sweet.
The $100 is about right. Ultegra8000 is about $900; Chorus closer to $1k. Durace9100 $1500; Record $1500.

That said, going to DuraAce/Record level, for example with a mainstream bike maker -- eg. Specialized Tarmac SL5 Expert or thereabouts, you're at a point in the lineup that's getting to $3500+ bikes anyway. If cost difference was $4000 Shim vs. $4100 for Campy it's kinda a non-issue. It's a shame IMO more bike makers aren't offering Campy options, but understandably they're taking the easier way out.

I used to be enthusiastic about Ribble's advanced "Bike Builder" functionality, as you could pick almost any Brand & Model groupset on the market.. Now they only offer Shimano (10 options mind you..but only Shimano). It's a shame.
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Old 10-20-17, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
The $100 is about right. Ultegra8000 is about $900; Chorus closer to $1k. Durace9100 $1500; Record $1500.

That said, going to DuraAce/Record level, for example with a mainstream bike maker -- eg. Specialized Tarmac SL5 Expert or thereabouts, you're at a point in the lineup that's getting to $3500+ bikes anyway. If cost difference was $4000 Shim vs. $4100 for Campy it's kinda a non-issue. It's a shame IMO more bike makers aren't offering Campy options, but understandably they're taking the easier way out.

I used to be enthusiastic about Ribble's advanced "Bike Builder" functionality, as you could pick almost any Brand & Model groupset on the market.. Now they only offer Shimano (10 options mind you..but only Shimano). It's a shame.
You cannot translate retail pricing to OEM spec. That’s not at all how it works.

It’s more like Specialized says they need 100k groups across such-and-such a range spread. Shimano say they can supply all at X profit margin. Campagnolo cannot provide all, and perhaps cannot even satisfy the volume call on the $3k price road bikes, but can provide some number of units affording X profit margin. Specialized runs the numbers, tallying things like what it would cost to market and distribute a mixed range, manage three group suppliers (presuming they use SRAM on MTB, maybe cross bikes), and and they conclude the lower Campagnolo margin and increased effort and cost is not worthwhile for them or their dealer network.
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Old 10-20-17, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster
You cannot translate retail pricing to OEM spec. That’s not at all how it works.

It’s more like Specialized says they need 100k groups across such-and-such a range spread. Shimano say they can supply all at X profit margin. Campagnolo cannot provide all, and perhaps cannot even satisfy the volume call on the $3k price road bikes, but can provide some number of units affording X profit margin. Specialized runs the numbers, tallying things like what it would cost to market and distribute a mixed range, manage three group suppliers (presuming they use SRAM on MTB, maybe cross bikes), and and they conclude the lower Campagnolo margin and increased effort and cost is not worthwhile for them or their dealer network.
I'm sure you're probably right. Still, I might propose that if one of the Big3 or so makers even offered just 1 or 2 models in their lineup with a Campy option, that they'd have a niche that could be exploited for advantage over the other 2 makers.

For fun, took a look at Lynskey's site to do a rundown. Their R460 with DuraAce comes out at about $5600. The same frameset-only price is $2730. Adding Record ($1500) and a parts list similar/same as Lynskey's complete comes to about $4800. Leaves about $800 to have someone assemble the bike.

So.. advice to just have your own built up makes sense and can be cheaper than stock comparable Shimano options.
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Old 10-20-17, 07:59 AM
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I always buy whatever frame I like and build it with my choice of groupset. I'm partial to Athena in Ultrashift and Record, myself.
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Old 10-20-17, 08:11 AM
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As to strategy of how to create a Campy bike...I have done it a couple of ways. Buy a stand alone frameset...and then transfer Campy components to the new frame and then Ebayed the old frame.

Or....buy a complete bike, strip off the groupset which is typically Shimano...after riding the bike a bit which always reconfirms that I prefer Campy ebay the Shimano groupset and install Campy.

Of course the third strategy is to buy a Campy equipped bike but as the OP stated, they aren't exactly common which is OK.

Btw, I am not in love with how Campy has evolved their groupsets. I find Shimano's evolution to make more sense. Further, Campy is weird with their proprietary tools...Shimano for example just came out with a new masterlink just like the KMC missing link everybody uses.

So to me, Campy has its share of flaws. I only wish I didn't like their shifter and shift quality so much. I prefer Shimano cranks and brakes and even chains because they are cheap...and 11s cassettes for the same reason which work with Campy shift spacing.
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Old 10-20-17, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
I'm sure you're probably right. Still, I might propose that if one of the Big3 or so makers even offered just 1 or 2 models in their lineup with a Campy option, that they'd have a niche that could be exploited for advantage over the other 2 makers.
I don't doubt there is the possibility for a Trek, Giant, Specialized or Cannondale to sell Campy-spec'd bikes, and certainly they have the resources to do it, which speaks to your earlier point about them taking the easy route.

Thinking about my own inclinations, I wonder if some of the big brands' calculus is that the number of US consumers who'd buy, say, a Campagnolo equipped Specialized, is vanishingly small. I mean, speaking personally here, though I ride Campagnolo, I did not pick my bikes because they had Campagnolo; I built them up that way. I don't ride the big brands because they're too ubiquitious for my tastes, and just because one of them might have a Campy offering or two really would not be inducement to me to buy one, since I don't buy on groupset. Perhaps I'm not the only one, and other Campy riders feel the same way. I'd assume market surveys and projections have been done, but who knows...

All I know is that I like being a little off-beat and different, and Campagnolo scratches some of that itch for me. Then to hang it on a big brand frameset would not.

I should add that I'm not dissin' the big brands; they make some absolutely unique, impressive, and killer bikes which I'm in awe of. It's just a "different strokes for different folks" thing.

Originally Posted by Sy Reene
For fun, took a look at Lynskey's site to do a rundown. Their R460 with DuraAce comes out at about $5600. The same frameset-only price is $2730. Adding Record ($1500) and a parts list similar/same as Lynskey's complete comes to about $4800. Leaves about $800 to have someone assemble the bike.

So.. advice to just have your own built up makes sense and can be cheaper than stock comparable Shimano options.
The thing here is that DA is top of Shimano's range, and Super Record would be the corresponding top of Campagnolo's range, and it costs $500 more than Record. If the complete DA bike is $5.6k, and the frameset $2730, that leaves $2,870 to build it. Deduct $2k for SR, and that leaves $870 for wheels, bar, stem, saddle, post, tires, and bar tape. Match the Vision Team 30s, use a midline FSA cockpit (w/ SLK carb post), a $100 saddle, $100 on rubber, and $40 on some Lizardskins or whatever, and drop the remaining $160 on the shop to build it, the SR build cost is the same. But personally, if I'm cranking over SR or DA, I'm not rolling on $250 Vision wheels, and an alloy cockpit, so none of this Lynskey build stuff makes any sense to me, either.
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Old 10-20-17, 09:39 AM
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Some of it is also region specific. For example, out here in California I've never seen a floor model bike with Campagnolo. When I worked at a shop that sold Pinarello we moved to a non-stocking dealer because we could never have the right frame, size, color or build kit. Sure enough, 90% of them were built with Super Record or Super Record EPS.

Yet when I was in England for a couple weeks (about two years ago) I went into three shops and all of them had a variety of bikes with a variety of Campagnolo groups. In fact, two of those shops had more Campagnolo on the floor than Shimano.
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Old 10-20-17, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Aubergine
Shimano makes inexpensive (as well as higher end). Campy doesn’t make such a low end range so doesn’t get picked when cost is a big criterion.
Shimano will probably cut you a deal if you spec your whole product range with their components. If you make a range of price points, that could be a compelling factor.
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Old 10-20-17, 11:13 AM
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I've always purchased frames and components separately. Never bought a gruppo. I pick and choose what I want to own and ride. This sounds very expensive, but I have no issues with using used but good equipment. (My best bike has a wide range Mirage RD. Cost me maybe $30. Nicest derailleur on a wide chairings/narrow cassette triple (my preferred set-up for the past 40 years) I have ever used. SunTour friction DT shifters, Dura Ace FD. Great shifting! Shimano dual pivots picked up used, no model name. Too much power so I de-tuned them with Tectro V-brake levers. Love the setup! (Both for the braking and the huge V-brake levers.)

My rear hubs for that bike are Campy 9-speed. I love Campy's cog choices, I have no need for more than 9 cogs and if I ever go brifter, it cannot be Shimano. (Brake lever activated shifters = at least one more crash for me. No thanks. Plus I lose one of my favorite hand holds; in the drops with my index, and sometimes middle, fingers firmly pressing the levers inboard. Steadies the HB nicely. I've been doing this too long to change.)

Ben
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Old 10-20-17, 11:44 AM
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All my bikes have been almost entirely full Campy for over 30 years, only once did I buy totally new (,in the 80's!!) mostly always bought used and it has all held up really well. Although lately the build - quality has 'fallen off' and manufacturers probably don't add full gruppo's since the price point on the complete bike gets very high very quickly. The bigger problem is that mechanics are starting to not like how every other year you have to buy specific 'Campy only' tools and that cut into the bottom line. For instance common bike shops in Zurich ( NOTE: A major city in Switzerland with lots of $$) had no NEW campy tools only the higher end stores the old tools from the 70's and 80's were good for 20 years now there are chain tools bearing tools and all sorts of stuff that is specific to the build-year and very freaking expensive. One very high end shop said they could order me a part, in this case, a crank bearing Super Record Ultra-torque (2011 I think ) but claimed he didn't own the tool to install it (!)
Finally, I went all the way to Geneva and the great Jean Braun Cycle shop had it solved in a jiffy.
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Old 10-20-17, 12:01 PM
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Few bike companies supply the US market from Europe, most use Taiwan based manufacturing..

Port of entry Seattle, Oakland and Long Beach Cal.

If you go thru some of the premium bike shops in Colorado, they build up the bike there.. you spec the components and pay the relative cost..


Back in the 80's European Road bike frame makers, expected the retail shop

to do the final 'chase and face' with their taps and shipped the frames out requiring that effort done locally.

Shifted the tool wear cost to the smaller volume agent.

Then the Retailer fit the component group of the customer's choice..






.....
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Old 10-20-17, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by kraftwerk
All my bikes have been almost entirely full Campy for over 30 years, only once did I buy totally new (,in the 80's!!) mostly always bought used and it has all held up really well. Although lately the build - quality has 'fallen off' and manufacturers probably don't add full gruppo's since the price point on the complete bike gets very high very quickly. The bigger problem is that mechanics are starting to not like how every other year you have to buy specific 'Campy only' tools and that cut into the bottom line. For instance common bike shops in Zurich ( NOTE: A major city in Switzerland with lots of $$) had no NEW campy tools only the higher end stores the old tools from the 70's and 80's were good for 20 years now there are chain tools bearing tools and all sorts of stuff that is specific to the build-year and very freaking expensive. One very high end shop said they could order me a part, in this case, a crank bearing Super Record Ultra-torque (2011 I think ) but claimed he didn't own the tool to install it (!)
Finally, I went all the way to Geneva and the great Jean Braun Cycle shop had it solved in a jiffy.
I'd love a business where I don't have to keep up the tech and times, and only had to make investments every 20-30 years, but that's not realistic, especially for mechanical service businesses. I think you found yourself a lazy shop over there; even a tiny shop nearby in po-dunk Ypsilanti, Michigan, TreeFort Bikes, has a Campagolo bearing puller. The old Park CBP3 was $50 retail, and the new CBP8 is $90 retail...retail, not wholesale. I get they may not want to buy one just to do, what, say 3 or 4 jobs a season, maybe fewer, but if they can't price appropriately then I guess they don't want the business, and in this case, they didn't get it.

It's the same thing with cars; I don't take my Porsche to Uncle Ed's Oil Change, I can tell you that.
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Old 10-20-17, 12:12 PM
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[/QUOTE]It's the same thing with cars; I don't take my Porsche to Uncle Ed's Oil Change, I can tell you that.[/QUOTE]

went to four shops in Zurich and the fifth had the know how but not the will or tools..
yeah, and as far as my Porsche goes: I change my own oil it's an easy task...
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Old 10-20-17, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by kraftwerk

went to four shops in Zurich and the fifth had the know how but not the will or tools.
I don't doubt it, I'm just saying for good bikes shops in a wealthy European city with a border on Italy to not have a handful of not very expensive tools to handle simple crank bearing replacement is strange, and the issue is something else other than that the shop didn't want to spend $50 on "yet another tool." Really, how many Campy bearing tools have there been in the past 5 or 10 years that it's burdensome?
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Old 10-20-17, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
...
But, then those wanting Campy want the "best", and thus it gets expensive quickly. ....
I buy the best. IT is no longer Campy. I think the best is the Extralite stuff FWIW.
I had a Super Record bike in the 80s, a C-Record tandem (delta brakes and 2X cranks). But I went to Shimano because I later felt, it was better. There are things on Campy that are better. Finish, materials, wear, Campy wins. Function, generally not as much.

For support, you used to be able to get every small part for Campy and not Shimano. That was a reason I loved Campy. Now - it is hard to get small parts for either, but I can get different spindle lengths on Shimano pedals where Campy has (I think) one.
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