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$30 to ride your bike into a national park??!?

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$30 to ride your bike into a national park??!?

Old 10-25-17, 09:13 PM
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Entering a park with an entrance fee without paying the fee is stealing.

It doesn't matter if you enter through a dirt road or through the front gate before they staff the booth. Not paying is stealing.


-Tim-
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Old 10-25-17, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by TimothyH
Entering a park with an entrance fee without paying the fee is stealing.

It doesn't matter if you enter through a dirt road or through the front gate before they staff the booth. Not paying is stealing.


-Tim-
I get what you're saying but NPS is REALLY bad at actually charging people.
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Old 10-25-17, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Colnago Mixte
There kinda is already. If you live near a National Park, you likely know about some of the dirt roads that will let you enter the park without paying.

I do think any fee is ridiculous though. I remember when the rangers would just wave you right past the toll gate if you were on a bike, as recently as the early 90's.
As recently as 25 years ago?
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Old 10-26-17, 01:52 AM
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as i said in the pacific nw regional thread...i'm okay with it. the nps has been chronically underfunded
and "loved to death." something's gotta give. i usually purchase an annual pass because i like to hit 3-4
any combo of parks every year: joshua tree, zion, yosemite, sequoia/kings canyon, death valley, channel islands,
saguaro or grand canyon. cabrillo natl monument is in my back yard and i usually hit it twice a month so
it makes sense for me to purchase the annual pass. i like cycling in scenic areas and you can cycle all of them
(save channel islands np) with them all having worthy areas to cycle so it's worth it to me.

the southern california national forests (los padres, angeles, san bernardino and cleveland) have had a
$5 day use pass system in place for approx 20 years (if parking a car within the forest boundaries).
there are roughly 20 million people within a 2 hour drive to any one of these southern
california forests. that's a lotta people. that's a lotta use. that's a lotta maintenance. the $5 doesn't
even begin to cover it but it helps.

the proposal is peak pricing during peak season. for most of these listed parks, those are are a mix
of the spring/summer or summer/fall months. pricing would be less if you wanted to visit yosemite or
zion "off-season." the locals (within a 2 hr drive) are gonna visit weekdays during the peak season
and whenever the rest of the year. the regional visitors and vacationers (mix of (maybe one-time)
foreign visitors and farther away than a 2 hr drive) are mostly gonna visit when they visit-peak season.
intended or unintended consequences could include less visitation overall, spreading out revenue for
local businesses supporting nearby national parks vs a seasonal hit, a reduction of automobiles (altho
i'm not holding my breath for that one) and fewer disadvantaged children getting to experience the great
outdoors when they would most likely be able to. it's the last one i'm most worried about. what will that
impact be?

Last edited by diphthong; 10-26-17 at 02:03 AM.
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Old 10-26-17, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by VegasTriker
I live within easy driving distance of 7 of the parks on this list and can think of a couple more not on the list. It is already true that buying a season pass saves money even if you only use the pass a couple times. It is also good at National Monuments. The park system has already doubled the cost of annual and senior passes but it just isn't enough to maintain the parks. More of a problem is the potential requirement to get advanced reservations to gain entrance into a park like Zion NP or Yosemite during peak use times. That idea has been floated too.

I've have been to Zion NP and Death Valley during the times it looked like Times Square at the visitors center. The park system really does need the money for fixing and operating the parks. If you are a cyclist, the introduction of natural gas powered buses at Zion has been a real blessing. You can now ride the length of the park and not be dodging hundreds of cars. When you get to one of the many stopping off points you don't find cars lining the road for a mile as it once was. That system is free to the passengers but certainly costly to the park. Sure wish they could do the same at Yosemite where the traffic and parking are also terrible during peak times. Some of the parks have had major problems like floods and fires making it even more expensive to maintain the park.
Death Valley NP had major floods that took roads and damaged facilities at least twice in the past decade.

BTW, if you spring for a senior pass you get a reduced fee for camping spots.
amen. the trams have been a blessing. i think that is where the nps will be gravitating towards in the next decade or so. trying to minimize the impact of the automobile and forcing visitors to slow down, plan and somewhat experience the parks vs just blasting thru them at 55 mph. the trams should be implemented during peak season in all the busiest parks. no more driving thru during the "season." walking/hiking? no problem. cycling? no problem.
driving your automobile? park it, get out and hop on the tram.
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Old 10-26-17, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by prathmann
In most cases a single $80 annual pass (or Senior/Military/Access Pass) would cover a group of up to 4 cyclists. From the NPS FAQ:
"Yes, generally the pass holder and up to 3 other bicyclists can enter for free. Be sure to check with the recreation site you plan to visit before leaving because there can be differences in the way a pass is honored at different sites."
Thanks. Good to know.

Originally Posted by Sullalto
I get what you're saying but NPS is REALLY bad at actually charging people.
Yep. We had the $80 family pass this summer, and we never showed it to anyone. Either gates were unmanned or we weren't asked to pay at parks that travel guides said had a fee.
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Old 10-26-17, 07:49 AM
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I ride in Joshua Tree NP at least 3-4 times a week. I do understand the frustration with the fees, however I have noticed that the popularity of the NPs has grown exponentially the last few years and it is showing. I went camping there last month and it was a complete zoo. Huge lines, traffic and waste that people bring. It’s a rough situation because I really do believe the parks system is for everyone but at the same time the record amount of visitors are really taking their toll on the system.
I have no dog in this fight as all the parks are free for me (active duty Marine) but I am interested in what the outcome of this will be. Either way, charging cyclists more is dumb because they have by far the lowest impact on the park system.
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Old 10-26-17, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Abe_Froman
I disagree. The national parks are a resource designed for the use of all americans. The park is yours. You cant steal something you already own. If you can’t pay, you shouldnt have to. Simple as that. These should be funded properly through the greater tax base anyway.
I trust most of you realize that, regardless of how you think things should work, the current reality is that the NPS can charge you for entering certain parks (and for using certain amenities, such as campgrounds and boat ramps that meet certain criteria) and that evading the payment of such charges has legal consequences.


https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...36cfrv1_02.tpl
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Old 10-26-17, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by PedalingWalrus
I think the parks should be adequately funded from our taxes.

I think the raised fee proposal is too much and more importantly I think there should be a few more 'categories' reflecting the level of impact on park use. Biking in or hiking in and camping at remote sites should be at the current pricing levels or lower. Also, fees should be reduced if You chip in with some kind of help or service that improves the park.
That last suggestion already exists. You can earn an Annual Pass by volunteering for 250 hours with various federal agencies (parks, BLM, Corps of Engineers, Forest Svc., Fish&Wildlife, etc.). The required hours can be accrued over multiple years.
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Old 10-26-17, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
I trust most of you realize that, regardless of how you think things should work, the current reality is that the NPS can charge you for entering certain parks (and for using certain amenities, such as campgrounds and boat ramps that meet certain criteria) and that evading the payment of such charges has legal consequences.


https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...36cfrv1_02.tpl
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Old 10-26-17, 10:17 AM
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Guys, I'm going to remove all the posts that are leaning towards politics in a last ditch attempt to avoid moving this thread to P&R. OK? Please cooperate.
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Old 10-26-17, 10:34 AM
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After funding cuts, it's now a toll road.
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Old 10-26-17, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by BluFalconActual
however I have noticed that the popularity of the NPs has grown exponentially the last few years and it is showing.

Your post led me to do some digging. Found this, which allows you to see yearly attendance numbers for all NPS sites using the drop down menu at the top:


https://irma.nps.gov/Stats/Reports/Park/GLAC


In 2016, Yosemite had nearly 1 million more visitors than in 2015. Crazy.
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Old 10-26-17, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
Your post led me to do some digging. Found this, which allows you to see yearly attendance numbers for all NPS sites using the drop down menu at the top:


https://irma.nps.gov/Stats/Reports/Park/GLAC


In 2016, Yosemite had nearly 1 million more visitors than in 2015. Crazy.
Yup. I almost died that last camping trip because there was a long line of vehicles looking for camping spots at 3 am (yes, stupid crowded even at that hour) and a Japanese tourist couple tried to bypass the line and smashed the barrier rock that was separating my tent from the road. Ruined their rental and I had to change my shorts.
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Old 10-26-17, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
Your post led me to do some digging. Found this, which allows you to see yearly attendance numbers for all NPS sites using the drop down menu at the top:


https://irma.nps.gov/Stats/Reports/Park/GLAC


In 2016, Yosemite had nearly 1 million more visitors than in 2015. Crazy.
Damn!

This year I learned the hard way to not even bother trying to get into Rocky Mtn Nat Park via the East entrance (Estes Park). When I tried, the traffic was backed up bumper-to-bumper before I even got close enough to see the entrance. (This was on my motorcycle).

On the other hand, if I take Hwy 6 -> I-70 -> Hwy 40 -> Hwy 34 to the West entrance (Grand Lake), I can just roll right up to the ticket office with no waiting at all.
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Old 10-26-17, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Shimagnolo
This year I learned the hard way to not even bother trying to get into Rocky Mtn Nat Park via the East entrance (Estes Park). When I tried, the traffic was backed up bumper-to-bumper before I even got close enough to see the entrance. (This was on my motorcycle).

Wow. I rode once U.S. 36 from a campground just north of Lyons to Estes Park and back. Crazy busy road, and that was in 2000.



This year I did a tour that included a ride up the west side of Going to the Sun and back. When I reached the park, the hilly part of the road up to Logan Pass was still not open to cars and wasn't supposed to open the next day when I planned to ride up to the pass. Started out super early. After I crossed the car closure point I was taking my time and taking lots of photos, thinking I didn't have to reach the summit by the 11 a.m. bike deadline that is in place when the road is open to cars. At some point I thought I read an engine back down in the valley. "Probably a maintenance vehicle" I thought to myself. A few minutes later a ranger pulled along side me and told me the road was fully open to cars and that I had to summit by 11 a.m. The rest of the ride up wasn't that bad because much of the car crowd had gotten the news late. Coming back down was a different story. At one point the traffic coming up the west side was bumper to bumper for miles. Of course the parking lot at the pass filled quickly, which meant people coming up the east side had to continue west, which created traffic for the descent. The nice part about descending the west side is that on the steeper, twisty part you can take the entire lane because you can ride faster than cars can safely drive.
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Old 10-26-17, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
Found this, which allows you to see yearly attendance numbers for all NPS sites using the drop down menu at the top:


https://irma.nps.gov/Stats/Reports/Park/GLAC
Great Smoky Ms had a little bump recently but it's basically been in a trading range for the past 30 years

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People here don't get it.

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Old 10-26-17, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by TimothyH
Entering a park with an entrance fee without paying the fee is stealing.

It doesn't matter if you enter through a dirt road or through the front gate before they staff the booth. Not paying is stealing.


-Tim-
So if you enter someplace where there is no one to take the money, do you just chuck it at a badger or something?
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Old 10-26-17, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by memebag
So if you enter someplace where there is no one to take the money, do you just chuck it at a badger or something?
You stand there and patiently wait with a smile, of course. Stand there indefinitely!

...or call 911 to report a soon to be crime.
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Old 10-26-17, 05:20 PM
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I believe there is zero fee for Pacific Crest Trail Hikers entering Crater Lake National Park. I don't know where one has to start, but I think entering on the trail just takes a simple registration at the park entrance.

As far as an $80 pass, it might be ok for those planning certain trips through several parks, but I'm lucky if I can get to one National Park a year. The "local" park is still a really hard day's ride away.

Originally Posted by BarryVee
National Park Service is cash strapped for things like hundreds & hundreds of helicopter trips hauling rock up Mt. Lassen for trail maintenance.

Google Mt. Lassen Reach the Peak Project.
Whew, I wonder how much that cost

Aren't mountains made out of rock?

All that work with heavy equipment... and at least Crater Lake gets mighty uptight about people wanting to bike camp

Does one really need trails built like freeways?
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Old 10-26-17, 05:44 PM
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Cyclists and folks walking in without cars should be free or a very low fee. There should be very minimal car traffic in National Parks. Traffic congestion in Yosemite and Sequoia parks were some of the most ridiculous I have ever seen. I don't know what good compromise would be, but I believe a few exist.
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Old 10-26-17, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by TimothyH
Entering a park with an entrance fee without paying the fee is stealing.

It doesn't matter if you enter through a dirt road or through the front gate before they staff the booth. Not paying is stealing.


-Tim-
I enter the park at 6:00 a.m, before the toll booth is open. No one cares. But one time some yahoo accused me of something like stealing. I can't exactly remember. Nor did I care. He yelled at me from his car. I told him to STFU. I'm sure he didn't know that I own an annual pass to enter the park. If the idiot really wanted to criminalize my conduct, it's probably more like a technical trespass at that hour.
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Old 10-26-17, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by tagaproject6
Cyclists and folks walking in without cars should be free or a very low fee.
Charge visitors $0.01 per pound of vehicle weight.
(Of course this would require a scales at the ticket office.)
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Old 10-26-17, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Velo Vol
It depends how you view national parks. Plenty of cities have free parks. They're viewed as a pubic good for residents.
Maybe by people who don't know what a "public good" is or means.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good
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Old 10-27-17, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Ogsarg
People with money will buy annual passes.
Poor people will be shut out.
Private contractors that run the parks will make more money.
Parks will still be crowded.

That is my cynical take on it.
How about the senior citizens one-time fee? Then its free entry from thereon. We all grow older.
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