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derailleurs

Old 07-06-02, 10:01 PM
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derailleurs

Right now on my road bike i gotta 6 speed Shimano 600 SIS derailleur. Not 600 Ultegra, or Ultegra, just plain old Shimano 600 SIS. That i believe is ancient and it is starting to feel ancient. That is compared to my XTR though. I am considering an upgrade on the rear derailleur. The front works fine. Right now I have Shimano 600 DT shifters.

Am i able to upgrade to a Campy Record 10 or Chorus 10 rear derailleur as long as i stick with shimano shifters. Since i am sticking with shimano shifters im gonna assume the spacing in shifts will be the same. Will the fact thats its 10 speed affect it or will tightening the limiter screws not work as its such a large range of shifting.

Am i able to upgrade to te 9 speed DuraAce or Ultegra or will the same situation arrise with the fact that it will go out too far and tightening the limiter screws not work.

If the campy will work I will of course change my derailleur to that as I like the feeling more. And i will keep my current 6 speed DT shifters or upgrade to newer 6 speed shifters.

Has anyone done this. Right now I have XTR 9 speed on an 8 speed cassette but that is a lower difference than 9 or 10 sp on 6.
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Old 07-06-02, 10:08 PM
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lol im a technician and i cant even answer my own questions. thats funny.

oh i just saw the price of Record 10 and Chorus 10.. Forget that.. I aint spending 110US+ on a derailleur lol. If the Shimano will work how does it compare to the Campys

Last edited by WorldIRC; 07-06-02 at 10:17 PM.
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Old 07-06-02, 11:38 PM
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Smart move because you might run into a chain problem. 10 speed chain is very narrow and the RD is made to accomdate that. your 6 speed chain might be too thick to work properly. You'd be better off using a 7 speed RD, in my opinion. Same chain and no problems with the limit stops.
You can, of course, use any brand RD you want, as long as you retain the same, or equal, Shimano shifters.
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Old 07-07-02, 03:45 AM
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With friction shifters and rear mech will work, but with an indexed system, you need to match:
The length of cable pulled by the shifter/index
The horizontal movement of the mech for that length of cable.
The inter-cog distance.

Rear mechs use different ratios for cable pull to horizontal movement. They are not all interchangeable.
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Old 07-07-02, 08:12 AM
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so if i get a long enough cable, will the 9 speed derailleurs work or not
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Old 07-07-02, 08:13 AM
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Michael, that has not been my experience. All indexing is controlled by the shifter; the RD has nothing to do with it. There were some early systems that used the RD for indexing, but not any more.
I'm curious about the information you have to the contrary. Maybe I've been wrong for a long time, and didn't know it.


WorldIRC, I'd suggest you not use the 9speed RD. It's overkill. If you can get the 9 spd chain to work on 6 speed sprockets you can probably adjust the limit stops. There is no particular advantage to it --other than psychological. It won't make you go faster or shift better. Save your money and put it into a better bike later.
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Old 07-07-02, 08:31 AM
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LJBIKE has a point. Actuation ratio's are determined by the shifter. Sram ESP and shimaNO XTR use a 1:1 ratio. Campy of course uses the same on its 2001 and above for its 9 and 10 speed systems. they do however reccomend of course that you use ergo lever's with their rear derailleur's. However the chain's from 10 to 6 speed are different in width. The width of the rear der. cage on newer models could determine if the chain wil work. They may not accomadate such a wide chain as a 6 speed chain.
Of course you could try https://www.recycledcycles.com , and see if they have some older Campy Record laying around and go with that. After all Camoy just gets better with age.
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Old 07-07-02, 08:50 AM
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thanks guys. i will take your advice and just invest in a better bike in the future and ride this bike as is.
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Old 07-07-02, 10:07 AM
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The indexing is in the shifter, but that sets the cable pull. How far does that move the rear mech ? That is the actuation ratio and depends on the position of the pivots in the mech.

SRAM make a rear mech with a different actuation ratio to Shimano
https://www.sram.com/tech_info/faq_display.asp?

Campag have changed the actuation ratio of their 9 speed to be compatable with their 10speed
faq_id=12https://www.cambriabike.com/road/shifters_cablesets/

Last edited by MichaelW; 07-07-02 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 07-07-02, 12:42 PM
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To address the main point I'd have to ask what do you mean by feeling ancient? Is it (the 600SIS) worn out? If this is the bike you talked about before I had the impression it was low mileage. 600 is Ultegra and the 600 series had always been Shimano's next to the top (DuraAce) for years on end now.

If you're missing shifts check adjustment. Otherwise the fact is that the older SIS isn't as slick as the new STI stuff but as you found out by looking at new Campy Record (BIG jump) the new stuff isn't cheap either. I remember my first roadbike. I swapped everything I could. Took a 29# bike and made it a 27# bike in other words the best way to get the newer equipment is to buy a new or newer bike.

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Old 07-07-02, 05:29 PM
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tell you what, go look for some CAMPY 8 speed
that some poseur is trying to dump cause he's gotta
have 10.
You can upgrade the ergo levers to 9 or 10.
Check out Campy only
and Brandford Bike (in their cassette section they have directions).
NOS 8 speed is pretty steep, but used can be really cheap.
FWIW Chorus is the best bang for the buck of the campy
line.

Marty
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Old 07-07-02, 06:04 PM
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OK, so you want to upgrade from 6 to 10- cog rears? Here's a few things to think about:

10-speed uses 130mm dropout spacing, 6 speed (unless it's Ultra-6) uses 126mm dropout spacing. Utltra-6 uses 120mm spacing. You will need to cold set your dropout spacing.

10-speed uses different chainrings than 6-speed components do. These fit only on splined BB's, not on 4-sided tapered BB's. You will need a new crankset, rings, and bearings.

10-speed cassettes will not fit on an old 6-speed freewheel wheel. You will need a new wheel, too.

10-speed rear derailleurs have a wider range than 6-speed derailleurs do. You will need a new derailleur. And shifters, too.

Chances are, anything that SIS derailleurs came on is a pile of crap, anyway. Do you really want to spend better than $500 on components for a junky bike? Wouldn't the money be better used as a downpayment on a bike that was designed for the components that you want?
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Old 07-07-02, 07:27 PM
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D*Alex,

If I recall correctly Brian's ride is a 12 speed Bianchi, probably
15 years old, Reynolds tubing. Not exactly what I would call
a pile of crap.

Marty
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Old 07-07-02, 07:37 PM
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piece of crap ehh.. well let me tell you that this bike which ive had for a week, which btw has columbus tubing, has already won 2 races in my city for me. And no i wasnt racing people with no experience, i was racing people who actually have a few years experience and ride the campy stuff.

And like i said, don't worry about it, i realized theres no point in upgrading the bike as I can get so much more new stuff for cheaper if and when i buy a new bike.

Thanks for all your help guys
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Old 07-08-02, 05:31 AM
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Sorry-after re-reading the original post, I notice that the components were actuallly Shimano 600, which is the old name for what is now called Ultegra. This is the best line, short of Dura-Ace.

Many department store bikes used to come with derailleurs marked "Shimano SIS", and this is what I thought you were referring to. SIS, actually, means "Shift Index System".

Still, I doubt the bike is worth upgrading to 10-speed components, for all the other reasons given.........
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Old 07-09-02, 10:23 PM
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Ijbike................LOL, do you really need to update your database on shifters and derailers.You CANNOT just mix and match different brands and often generations/gruops within brands willy nilly. Shifters have cable pull, and derailers have differing tthrow ratios,per same amount of cable pulled. I will give you just 2 examples ,but there are others. In 2001,campy changed the cable pull/derailer throw on their 9 and 10 speed shifters and dreailers. The new shifters won't work with the old derailers and and the new derailers won't work with the old shifters.Pre 9 speed DA derailers and shifters have to be used with each other due to UNIQUE cable pull derailer throw. There is one exception though in that any shimano 9 speed shifter when used with a pre 9 speed DA rear derailer WILL shift a shimano 8 speed cogset perfectly.
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Old 07-11-02, 01:35 AM
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You must remember that when replacing your RD you will also have to consider the serviceability of the rest of the transmission. If you are replacing your RD, and obviously your cassette, you will also have to consider the condition of your chainrings. The improved efficiency of your new RD will be offset if the chainrings are in poor condition.

A good aftermarket set of chainrings comes from Stronglight. These are both Campy and Shimano compatible but wont break the bank. Stronglight make rings which will be compatible with both the drillings of Campy and Shimano chainsets.
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