Group Ride Etiquette?
12-28-17, 08:36 PM
#26
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This is why group rides should all be based on power or FTP, and maybe FTP per KG. This will even out the playing field and get people in groups that are more like themselves. The problem is the average rider does not know their FTP, nor has the equipment to measure it. This is why I like riding in groups in Zwift, there are 4 categories of power to join.
That's why Zwift is so unlike real world riding and racing.
12-28-17, 09:09 PM
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The etiquette of group rides - the ticket, the key - is that they never go at YOUR place, they always go at the GROUP'S pace. And before you go there, I'm not talking about advertised pace.... 
Sure, on good group rides, you wouldn't change a thing about the pace; you're happy with it, but it's never your own.
Sure, on good group rides, you wouldn't change a thing about the pace; you're happy with it, but it's never your own.
12-28-17, 09:51 PM
#28
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W/kg has pretty much nothing to do with riding in a group, especially one not traveling up mountains. You can ride with people so much faster than you by simply being smart about drafting, positioning, and using your efforts at the right times (small hills, surges, etc.).
That's why Zwift is so unlike real world riding and racing.
That's why Zwift is so unlike real world riding and racing.
And does it make a difference if you are riding 25mph behind some big, fast guy, at 200watts vs. riding by yourself at 20mph at 200watts? Nope. It won't matter at all. Watts are watts and joules are joules. It is satisfying to go fast but it isn't any better for training. Get yourself in a gear with your cadence goal too, whether mashing at 60, spinning easy at 90 or spinning out at 110+.
And if you can't push the watts, you aren't going to go up that mountain with the guys that can. And w/kg has everything to do with going uphill. It is the great equalizer, since greater weight takes more watts to go the same speed up the same hill.
This isn't magic or speculation. It is pure physics. Power is everything, whether you apply it during a group ride or solo or on the trainer. It would be much more satisfying to be with people of relatively equal power on a long ride. On fast laps around the park it is fun to be with the fast guys. It is even more fun to be the fast guys. And if you are on a group ride that splits up, be realistic and ride with people that are at your ability.
Buy a power meter and it'll change the way you ride. When you see you're falling short of your power goal while drafting, you'll get out on your own and push harder. And when you attack up that hill, you'll see how much power you just put out to get there. And maybe you'll see that riding with the fast group is just about where you want to be training. But maybe not. And if you find that group rides get you to a power level that solo riding doesn't, well you're not riding hard enough solo, and maybe the motivation of the group is worthwhile.
12-28-17, 11:48 PM
#29
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Your original question was about group ride etiquette.
When they were at that regrouping point, they were waiting for you. But despite that courtesy, you just blew by them. That, at least, is probably the way they saw it.
I hope they allow you to ride with them again...
And on a slightly different topic ... if you keep riding with them, I promise - you will become a better, stronger rider.
When they were at that regrouping point, they were waiting for you. But despite that courtesy, you just blew by them. That, at least, is probably the way they saw it.
I hope they allow you to ride with them again...
And on a slightly different topic ... if you keep riding with them, I promise - you will become a better, stronger rider.
Last edited by DGlenday; 12-28-17 at 11:53 PM.
12-29-17, 12:05 AM
#30
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I say keep going back. Next week your goal is to hang on a little longer. Then the next week a little longer than that. Eventually you’ll finish the whole ride with the main group.
Riding with faster riders is a proven and time honored way to get faster. No powermeter required. Just a bike and a dose of HTFU.
Riding with faster riders is a proven and time honored way to get faster. No powermeter required. Just a bike and a dose of HTFU.
12-29-17, 07:42 AM
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Really? If you are drafting to go fast, you are not getting the workout you think you are. All they'd have to do is move themselves so you're not in the draft and you're toast. Wind resistance will slow you down even with the same power.
And does it make a difference if you are riding 25mph behind some big, fast guy, at 200watts vs. riding by yourself at 20mph at 200watts? Nope. It won't matter at all. Watts are watts and joules are joules. It is satisfying to go fast but it isn't any better for training. Get yourself in a gear with your cadence goal too, whether mashing at 60, spinning easy at 90 or spinning out at 110+.
And if you can't push the watts, you aren't going to go up that mountain with the guys that can. And w/kg has everything to do with going uphill. It is the great equalizer, since greater weight takes more watts to go the same speed up the same hill.
This isn't magic or speculation. It is pure physics. Power is everything, whether you apply it during a group ride or solo or on the trainer. It would be much more satisfying to be with people of relatively equal power on a long ride. On fast laps around the park it is fun to be with the fast guys. It is even more fun to be the fast guys. And if you are on a group ride that splits up, be realistic and ride with people that are at your ability.
Buy a power meter and it'll change the way you ride. When you see you're falling short of your power goal while drafting, you'll get out on your own and push harder. And when you attack up that hill, you'll see how much power you just put out to get there. And maybe you'll see that riding with the fast group is just about where you want to be training. But maybe not. And if you find that group rides get you to a power level that solo riding doesn't, well you're not riding hard enough solo, and maybe the motivation of the group is worthwhile.
And does it make a difference if you are riding 25mph behind some big, fast guy, at 200watts vs. riding by yourself at 20mph at 200watts? Nope. It won't matter at all. Watts are watts and joules are joules. It is satisfying to go fast but it isn't any better for training. Get yourself in a gear with your cadence goal too, whether mashing at 60, spinning easy at 90 or spinning out at 110+.
And if you can't push the watts, you aren't going to go up that mountain with the guys that can. And w/kg has everything to do with going uphill. It is the great equalizer, since greater weight takes more watts to go the same speed up the same hill.
This isn't magic or speculation. It is pure physics. Power is everything, whether you apply it during a group ride or solo or on the trainer. It would be much more satisfying to be with people of relatively equal power on a long ride. On fast laps around the park it is fun to be with the fast guys. It is even more fun to be the fast guys. And if you are on a group ride that splits up, be realistic and ride with people that are at your ability.
Buy a power meter and it'll change the way you ride. When you see you're falling short of your power goal while drafting, you'll get out on your own and push harder. And when you attack up that hill, you'll see how much power you just put out to get there. And maybe you'll see that riding with the fast group is just about where you want to be training. But maybe not. And if you find that group rides get you to a power level that solo riding doesn't, well you're not riding hard enough solo, and maybe the motivation of the group is worthwhile.
I'm not sure that your post addresses anything I wrote in my post.
You said groups should be separated by w/kg and that's why you like Zwift. I said that just doesn't matter in a pack and Zwift is very unlike real world pack riding.
The rest of what you wrote really has nothing to do with anything being discussed.
But no, power is not everything. Speed is everything. Race winners are the fastest over the race distance, not the strongest.
12-29-17, 07:51 AM
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Keep going to group rides. Eventually you will find a group that rides at a similar pace/level of effort. Too hard or too slow does nobody (you or the group) any good.
12-29-17, 08:12 AM
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If you have a power meter .... just dial up 400 watts.
12-29-17, 08:25 AM
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W/kg has pretty much nothing to do with riding in a group, especially one not traveling up mountains. You can ride with people so much faster than you by simply being smart about drafting, positioning, and using your efforts at the right times (small hills, surges, etc.).
That's why Zwift is so unlike real world riding and racing.
That's why Zwift is so unlike real world riding and racing.
12-29-17, 09:56 AM
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Just riding around is still dictated by w/kg. Ever notice how it lists each rider's w/kg underneath their name on the right side? You can hop in the draft of other riders. Never said you couldn't. I said it's not like real-life riding. And it's not. And the races are absolutely nothing like real races. I average 290-310 watts in Zwift race, yet don't usually come close to that in a real crit or road race unless I'm rolling a small break.
12-29-17, 10:06 AM
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Got my first powermeter in 2005.
I'm not sure that your post addresses anything I wrote in my post.
You said groups should be separated by w/kg and that's why you like Zwift. I said that just doesn't matter in a pack and Zwift is very unlike real world pack riding.
The rest of what you wrote really has nothing to do with anything being discussed.
But no, power is not everything. Speed is everything. Race winners are the fastest over the race distance, not the strongest.
I'm not sure that your post addresses anything I wrote in my post.
You said groups should be separated by w/kg and that's why you like Zwift. I said that just doesn't matter in a pack and Zwift is very unlike real world pack riding.
The rest of what you wrote really has nothing to do with anything being discussed.
But no, power is not everything. Speed is everything. Race winners are the fastest over the race distance, not the strongest.
Ehhh, not to be a nitpicker here BUT it's not the fastest who wins; It's whoever slows down the least.
12-29-17, 10:12 AM
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To answer your original question...
I have played with the idea of going on some group rides, but up to this point I'm still not sure it's for me. Most of the group rides in my area are sponsored by the various bike clubs and here in So Cal there are quite a few to chose from. If I was in your situation I would have probably just met up with the group either at the end of the ride or emailed several of the people that were in that group and let them know of your intentions and what they would suggest regarding enjoying the experience a bit more on your next ride. It's not just about speed, I would think it's about creating relationships with other like minded riders. If you were to reach out to them I'm sure you would find the help and some answers to your questions.
I have played with the idea of going on some group rides, but up to this point I'm still not sure it's for me. Most of the group rides in my area are sponsored by the various bike clubs and here in So Cal there are quite a few to chose from. If I was in your situation I would have probably just met up with the group either at the end of the ride or emailed several of the people that were in that group and let them know of your intentions and what they would suggest regarding enjoying the experience a bit more on your next ride. It's not just about speed, I would think it's about creating relationships with other like minded riders. If you were to reach out to them I'm sure you would find the help and some answers to your questions.
12-29-17, 10:21 AM
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I've used Zwift since its beta version. I do some A races from time to time.
Just riding around is still dictated by w/kg. Ever notice how it lists each rider's w/kg underneath their name on the right side? You can hop in the draft of other riders. Never said you couldn't. I said it's not like real-life riding. And it's not. And the races are absolutely nothing like real races. I average 290-310 watts in Zwift race, yet don't usually come close to that in a real crit or road race unless I'm rolling a small break.
Just riding around is still dictated by w/kg. Ever notice how it lists each rider's w/kg underneath their name on the right side? You can hop in the draft of other riders. Never said you couldn't. I said it's not like real-life riding. And it's not. And the races are absolutely nothing like real races. I average 290-310 watts in Zwift race, yet don't usually come close to that in a real crit or road race unless I'm rolling a small break.
12-29-17, 10:41 AM
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Really? If you are drafting to go fast, you are not getting the workout you think you are. All they'd have to do is move themselves so you're not in the draft and you're toast. Wind resistance will slow you down even with the same power.
And does it make a difference if you are riding 25mph behind some big, fast guy, at 200watts vs. riding by yourself at 20mph at 200watts? Nope. It won't matter at all. Watts are watts and joules are joules. It is satisfying to go fast but it isn't any better for training. Get yourself in a gear with your cadence goal too, whether mashing at 60, spinning easy at 90 or spinning out at 110+.
And if you can't push the watts, you aren't going to go up that mountain with the guys that can. And w/kg has everything to do with going uphill. It is the great equalizer, since greater weight takes more watts to go the same speed up the same hill.
This isn't magic or speculation. It is pure physics. Power is everything, whether you apply it during a group ride or solo or on the trainer. It would be much more satisfying to be with people of relatively equal power on a long ride. On fast laps around the park it is fun to be with the fast guys. It is even more fun to be the fast guys. And if you are on a group ride that splits up, be realistic and ride with people that are at your ability.
Buy a power meter and it'll change the way you ride. When you see you're falling short of your power goal while drafting, you'll get out on your own and push harder. And when you attack up that hill, you'll see how much power you just put out to get there. And maybe you'll see that riding with the fast group is just about where you want to be training. But maybe not. And if you find that group rides get you to a power level that solo riding doesn't, well you're not riding hard enough solo, and maybe the motivation of the group is worthwhile.
And does it make a difference if you are riding 25mph behind some big, fast guy, at 200watts vs. riding by yourself at 20mph at 200watts? Nope. It won't matter at all. Watts are watts and joules are joules. It is satisfying to go fast but it isn't any better for training. Get yourself in a gear with your cadence goal too, whether mashing at 60, spinning easy at 90 or spinning out at 110+.
And if you can't push the watts, you aren't going to go up that mountain with the guys that can. And w/kg has everything to do with going uphill. It is the great equalizer, since greater weight takes more watts to go the same speed up the same hill.
This isn't magic or speculation. It is pure physics. Power is everything, whether you apply it during a group ride or solo or on the trainer. It would be much more satisfying to be with people of relatively equal power on a long ride. On fast laps around the park it is fun to be with the fast guys. It is even more fun to be the fast guys. And if you are on a group ride that splits up, be realistic and ride with people that are at your ability.
Buy a power meter and it'll change the way you ride. When you see you're falling short of your power goal while drafting, you'll get out on your own and push harder. And when you attack up that hill, you'll see how much power you just put out to get there. And maybe you'll see that riding with the fast group is just about where you want to be training. But maybe not. And if you find that group rides get you to a power level that solo riding doesn't, well you're not riding hard enough solo, and maybe the motivation of the group is worthwhile.
Is all this based on the power meter pedals that are on the way?
12-29-17, 10:56 AM
#41
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Well, of course you're on a trainer, so it's not going to be like a real ride. Not sure what you mean though by "dictated"? w/kg is listed as you say, but that's just a data point, isn't it? As to your last comment, I don't have an answer.. watts are watts are watts, aren't they?
Dictated, as in your speed in the game is dependent on your w/kg.
It has everything to do with the realistic or not nature of the game. That's the discussion. Not sure why you're so confused.
12-29-17, 12:09 PM
#42
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Like others have said, it depends on what your goals are. Do you *really* want to hang with that fast group ride? If that's your goal, then keep going back over and over.
The other caveat being how physiologically "like" the members of the group you are. If they're a bunch of 30something guys and so are you, it should work out. If you're a 65 year old guy, then the amount of work it would take to hang with that group may be impossible, or just not worth the effort.
I have gone through this exact thought process. I race TTs and work with a coach. My race team/club is comprised mostly of men in their 20s, 30s, and 40s. I am a woman in my 50s. I do my hard interval workouts during the week and my less structured riding on weekends. I can't hang with my team/club's group rides for a number of reasons- differences in physiologic potential between myself & my teammates, the fact that I'm not going into the weekend group rides particularly rested, the type of training I do (being a TTist) is designed to hone production of very steady power while the type of training they do (being mostly crit racers) is designed to be all about the interplay with other riders and putting out/surviving surgey type power and the abundance of testosterone in them and the lack in me (the way these guys turn themselves inside out to hang with our local ex pro when he shows up for a ride just does not compute for me).
I know I could get Coach to change up my training and I'd be more successful in riding those group rides. But then I think about it for a minute- Why would I do that? My training objective is not to hang with the fast group ride. If I were racing in any scenario where drafting played a role, maybe it would make sense for the group ride to be a training focus.
But TT efforts are different physiologically and I don't think group rides are particularly useful in improving TT efforts. So I rarely do group rides, for me it's just a socializing thing when I show up. Maybe 2 or 3 times a year. Not that I otherwise ride solo, I put together a lot of small group rides in which we may or may not ride cohesively (but if we do, it's pretty mellow) or I ride MTB with friends.
Lots of people believe the fast group ride is the solution for everybody. I think it works well for some people but makes no sense for others. It depends entirely on who you are & where your goals lie.
The other caveat being how physiologically "like" the members of the group you are. If they're a bunch of 30something guys and so are you, it should work out. If you're a 65 year old guy, then the amount of work it would take to hang with that group may be impossible, or just not worth the effort.
I have gone through this exact thought process. I race TTs and work with a coach. My race team/club is comprised mostly of men in their 20s, 30s, and 40s. I am a woman in my 50s. I do my hard interval workouts during the week and my less structured riding on weekends. I can't hang with my team/club's group rides for a number of reasons- differences in physiologic potential between myself & my teammates, the fact that I'm not going into the weekend group rides particularly rested, the type of training I do (being a TTist) is designed to hone production of very steady power while the type of training they do (being mostly crit racers) is designed to be all about the interplay with other riders and putting out/surviving surgey type power and the abundance of testosterone in them and the lack in me (the way these guys turn themselves inside out to hang with our local ex pro when he shows up for a ride just does not compute for me).
I know I could get Coach to change up my training and I'd be more successful in riding those group rides. But then I think about it for a minute- Why would I do that? My training objective is not to hang with the fast group ride. If I were racing in any scenario where drafting played a role, maybe it would make sense for the group ride to be a training focus.
But TT efforts are different physiologically and I don't think group rides are particularly useful in improving TT efforts. So I rarely do group rides, for me it's just a socializing thing when I show up. Maybe 2 or 3 times a year. Not that I otherwise ride solo, I put together a lot of small group rides in which we may or may not ride cohesively (but if we do, it's pretty mellow) or I ride MTB with friends.
Lots of people believe the fast group ride is the solution for everybody. I think it works well for some people but makes no sense for others. It depends entirely on who you are & where your goals lie.
12-29-17, 12:15 PM
#43
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When you are riding in a group it is impolite not to wave at oncoming groups.
12-29-17, 12:33 PM
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I was confused for 2 reasons I guess: 1) you mentioned that speed while "just riding around" is driven by watts/kg. At this point I thought you were not specifically still talking about the drafting realism in Zwift. Speed is a by-product of the watts you put out, and when you put them out of course. ie. you won't win the TDF averaging 3 watts/kg
and 2) confused because you said you can average 300 watts on the trainer/Zwift, but don't (or can't?) do this in a race. This made me think your trainer was returning inaccurate wattages. Again, you're talking about drafting benefits it appears, so nevermind.
Do you find Zwift at all realistic just riding solo.. not in a group, not drafting? honestly curious.
12-29-17, 02:56 PM
#45
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Ok, so you're saying the speed compensation that Zwift gives a rider for drafting is not at all accurate. I can believe that.
I was confused for 2 reasons I guess: 1) you mentioned that speed while "just riding around" is driven by watts/kg. At this point I thought you were not specifically still talking about the drafting realism in Zwift. Speed is a by-product of the watts you put out, and when you put them out of course. ie. you won't win the TDF averaging 3 watts/kg
and 2) confused because you said you can average 300 watts on the trainer/Zwift, but don't (or can't?) do this in a race. This made me think your trainer was returning inaccurate wattages. Again, you're talking about drafting benefits it appears, so nevermind.
Do you find Zwift at all realistic just riding solo.. not in a group, not drafting? honestly curious.
I was confused for 2 reasons I guess: 1) you mentioned that speed while "just riding around" is driven by watts/kg. At this point I thought you were not specifically still talking about the drafting realism in Zwift. Speed is a by-product of the watts you put out, and when you put them out of course. ie. you won't win the TDF averaging 3 watts/kg
and 2) confused because you said you can average 300 watts on the trainer/Zwift, but don't (or can't?) do this in a race. This made me think your trainer was returning inaccurate wattages. Again, you're talking about drafting benefits it appears, so nevermind.
Do you find Zwift at all realistic just riding solo.. not in a group, not drafting? honestly curious.
A zwift race is more like a time trial in that it's way more steady state with minor surges and nothing like the hellacious surge and then coast of crit or road race. I don't ever coast in zwift.
So no, I don't find anything about Zwift realistic; riding solo, riding with a few other people, or riding with a massive pack. It's just a more enjoyable way to get some work in while on the trainer.
All of that simply to reinforce my assertion that zacster is way off base with his idea that group rides should be like Zwift rides and based off w/kg, because Zwift is nothing like real-life and in real life a person can be a smart rider and ride much, much faster with a group.
12-29-17, 05:17 PM
#46
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I love you man.
Now all this thread needs is a reference to "massive guads" and/or "drope the hammer" and the circle will be complete.
Now all this thread needs is a reference to "massive guads" and/or "drope the hammer" and the circle will be complete.
12-29-17, 07:40 PM
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12-29-17, 07:42 PM
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Really? If you are drafting to go fast, you are not getting the workout you think you are. All they'd have to do is move themselves so you're not in the draft and you're toast. Wind resistance will slow you down even with the same power.
And does it make a difference if you are riding 25mph behind some big, fast guy, at 200watts vs. riding by yourself at 20mph at 200watts? Nope. It won't matter at all. Watts are watts and joules are joules. It is satisfying to go fast but it isn't any better for training. Get yourself in a gear with your cadence goal too, whether mashing at 60, spinning easy at 90 or spinning out at 110+.
And if you can't push the watts, you aren't going to go up that mountain with the guys that can. And w/kg has everything to do with going uphill. It is the great equalizer, since greater weight takes more watts to go the same speed up the same hill.
This isn't magic or speculation. It is pure physics. Power is everything, whether you apply it during a group ride or solo or on the trainer. It would be much more satisfying to be with people of relatively equal power on a long ride. On fast laps around the park it is fun to be with the fast guys. It is even more fun to be the fast guys. And if you are on a group ride that splits up, be realistic and ride with people that are at your ability.
Buy a power meter and it'll change the way you ride. When you see you're falling short of your power goal while drafting, you'll get out on your own and push harder. And when you attack up that hill, you'll see how much power you just put out to get there. And maybe you'll see that riding with the fast group is just about where you want to be training. But maybe not. And if you find that group rides get you to a power level that solo riding doesn't, well you're not riding hard enough solo, and maybe the motivation of the group is worthwhile.
And does it make a difference if you are riding 25mph behind some big, fast guy, at 200watts vs. riding by yourself at 20mph at 200watts? Nope. It won't matter at all. Watts are watts and joules are joules. It is satisfying to go fast but it isn't any better for training. Get yourself in a gear with your cadence goal too, whether mashing at 60, spinning easy at 90 or spinning out at 110+.
And if you can't push the watts, you aren't going to go up that mountain with the guys that can. And w/kg has everything to do with going uphill. It is the great equalizer, since greater weight takes more watts to go the same speed up the same hill.
This isn't magic or speculation. It is pure physics. Power is everything, whether you apply it during a group ride or solo or on the trainer. It would be much more satisfying to be with people of relatively equal power on a long ride. On fast laps around the park it is fun to be with the fast guys. It is even more fun to be the fast guys. And if you are on a group ride that splits up, be realistic and ride with people that are at your ability.
Buy a power meter and it'll change the way you ride. When you see you're falling short of your power goal while drafting, you'll get out on your own and push harder. And when you attack up that hill, you'll see how much power you just put out to get there. And maybe you'll see that riding with the fast group is just about where you want to be training. But maybe not. And if you find that group rides get you to a power level that solo riding doesn't, well you're not riding hard enough solo, and maybe the motivation of the group is worthwhile.
12-29-17, 11:56 PM
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I agree with Bob Ross' comments...it's all about your relationship to the ride. I think the best approach is to do both group rides and solo rides. Solo rides allow you to push yourself, focus on specific skills like climbing, do intervals, and customize your distance & elevation, all within a time frame that you dictate. It's the most direct path to significant improvement.
Having said that, I've also found group rides to be extremely rewarding and because of that have started leading rides as well. Assuming you are able to find a group ride within your fitness level, they are a great place to meet other riders, ask questions of more experienced riders, learn new skills, experience good riding routes without trial and error, and just plain have fun becoming part of a riding community. You will likely learn a lot from more experienced riders, and once you've become one of those experienced riders, you can share your knowledge and experience with someone who is just starting out.
Despite northeast US weather (damn cold lately) I try to do at least a couple of group rides per week for fun and general fitness and at least one hard training ride per week that is either solo or with a riding buddy or two who is of equal level. It's a good balance of fitness and fun.
Having said that, I've also found group rides to be extremely rewarding and because of that have started leading rides as well. Assuming you are able to find a group ride within your fitness level, they are a great place to meet other riders, ask questions of more experienced riders, learn new skills, experience good riding routes without trial and error, and just plain have fun becoming part of a riding community. You will likely learn a lot from more experienced riders, and once you've become one of those experienced riders, you can share your knowledge and experience with someone who is just starting out.
Despite northeast US weather (damn cold lately) I try to do at least a couple of group rides per week for fun and general fitness and at least one hard training ride per week that is either solo or with a riding buddy or two who is of equal level. It's a good balance of fitness and fun.