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My first visit to Watopia

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

My first visit to Watopia

Old 01-08-18, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by atwl77
FTP is useful for structured interval training, like in Trainerroad or Sufferfest, because the intensity of the workouts will be based on that number.
The actual process of doing FTP tests is also useful for time-trailling, as it helps you learn to pace yourself over long durations.
If you're serious about improving your fitness or just getting quicker on the bike, FTP training is incredibly useful. It totally changed the way I look and feel about riding my bike. I hardly use it when I'm riding outside but for the trainer it's invaluable.
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Old 01-08-18, 02:25 PM
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I want to get a trainer but my budget is limited can I get a cheaper fluid trainer and still play on Zwift and the like?
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Old 01-08-18, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by highrpm
I really like Zwift. There were more than 6,000 people online last weekend together.


And like folks already mentioned, you are seriously dropping the hammer when you get on there. My friends used to tell me that and I didn't think it could be real until I go on and started hammering in attempts to get good segment times.
My average speeds are actually lower on Zwift than my road rides! It's a nice thing for bad weather riding. And having a smart trainers really enhances the usefulness.

I'm hooked.
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Old 01-08-18, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by RidingMatthew
I want to get a trainer but my budget is limited can I get a cheaper fluid trainer and still play on Zwift and the like?
Yes, but you'll need to use a speed sensor to monitor speeds and won't be able to change resistance automatically. I'd look for a used smart trainer first if the budget is tight.
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Old 01-08-18, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by highrpm
And like folks already mentioned, you are seriously dropping the hammer when you get on there..
The main exception to this is when I am planning on the Epic KOM - I start out at a more reasonable pace because I *know* that I have a lot of hard climbing to do.
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Old 01-09-18, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by dmanthree
Yes, but you'll need to use a speed sensor to monitor speeds and won't be able to change resistance automatically. I'd look for a used smart trainer first if the budget is tight.
I have not seen many smart trainers reasonably priced. They are almost as much as my bike!
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Old 01-09-18, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by RidingMatthew
I have not seen many smart trainers reasonably priced. They are almost as much as my bike!
I've seen them on ebay for reasonable prices, like this one.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tacx-Vortex...MAAOSwB3BaBeU4
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Old 01-09-18, 02:18 PM
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I"m a creature of habit and normally ride the same routes outside, so the Zwift course thing doesn't bother me at all.

Get a USB cord extension for your dongle (plastic baggie is a good idea.) Get on with some friends, or make some new ones, and ride like you do IRL.

Not much opportunity to coast, so you get a pretty good workout. They have some excellent group workouts as well as ones you can do on your own.

The climbing is pretty realistic (as is the entire experience with a good trainer and riding mates) and the races are fierce. Start full gas and hope to hang on until things settle down.
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Old 01-09-18, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by dmanthree
Well, the low temps and ice-covered roads finally drove me inside to the trainer. I made my first Zwift ride and it's a decent way to ride a trainer. For those of you with Zwift experience, can you offer some tips? Favorite routes? Best features?

Love how it "talks" to the trainer to change resistance. Really enhances indoor riding.
If your bike has climbing gears, set the trainer difficulty to max. Otherwise you're spinning up Watopia mountain's 15% parts at 80 cadence thinking you're actually climbing.
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Old 01-09-18, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by nycphotography
If your bike has climbing gears, set the trainer difficulty to max. Otherwise you're spinning up Watopia mountain's 15% parts at 80 cadence thinking you're actually climbing.
I realize it's not the same as a real hill, but, well, it's way better than nothing. And my speeds up Watopia's hills are pretty similar to my speeds in real life. "Close enough for government work."

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Old 01-09-18, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by dmanthree
I realize it's not the same as a real hill, but, well, it's way better than nothing. And my speeds up Watopia's hills are pretty similar to my speeds in real life. "Close enough for government work."

Your speeds may be similar, but the experience is qualitatively different.

Tell it to 100% simulate the grade, and report back ;-)
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Old 01-09-18, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dmanthree
I realize it's not the same as a real hill, but, well, it's way better than nothing. And my speeds up Watopia's hills are pretty similar to my speeds in real life. "Close enough for government work."

Do you have trainer difficulty set to max? My reading of eg. the below link, makes me think that using anything less than max is basically a lie -- example in linked article is that a 10% gradient will feel like 5% if difficulty is set at 50%. Your watt output capability doesn't change, but I read that Zwift will attempt to make your speed realistic to the watts your outputting for the grade displayed; but it just will feel like an easier hill than it would be if set to 100%.

The guess as to why Zwift defaults to 50% difficulty is that many smart trainers aren't capable of reproducing eg. 18% gradients. What I'm wondering, is then whether it makes sense mostly to set trainer difficulty to percentage that maps the highest gradients you'll see in Watopia to what your trainer can really emulate. Eg. if your trainer can emulate only up to 12% gradient, and Zwift has 18% gradients, then setting trainer to 67% would make sense? This would ensure that at least an 18% Zwift gradient would feel different than a 12% gradient, albeit both would be easier than real life.. Setting to 100% would mean a 12% Zwift gradient would feel identical to an 18% gradient... I think(?)

https://zwiftinsider.com/using-the-t...ting-in-zwift/
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Old 01-09-18, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by RidingMatthew
I have not seen many smart trainers reasonably priced. They are almost as much as my bike!
I've been zwift'ing for a couple of years now and I still use a cheap fluid resistance "dumb" trainer (Traveltrac Fluid Pro).

The program allows you to use dumb trainers, you just need a rear wheel speed/cadence sensor. If the game knows your wheel speed, it has pre-mapped power curves for a number of dumb trainer models so it can approximate your power, you just have to pick your trainer model when pairing sensors.

That said, I found the default power curve for my trainer to be wayyyy off. Like 150+ watts too high for a given effort. I ended up borrowing my friend's powertap wheel and testing different trainer presets in the game until I found one that was pretty close to my real power numbers (within 15 watts), and I've continued to use that preset ever since.

Zwift has changed trainer rides for me, big time. I don't do group rides or races in the game, but I have been swept up by them before and it is a good workout. Chasing down people, going for PRs on long segments, trying to get jerseys... it's a lot more engrossing than just watching a movie and spinning away.

I recently (finally) got a bluetooth HR monitor so I can watch my HR while in the game. I push myself way harder in Zwift than I ever did on the trainer before, and probably harder than I do outside unless I'm actually racing or on a hard training ride.
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Old 01-09-18, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
The guess as to why Zwift defaults to 50% difficulty is that many smart trainers aren't capable of reproducing eg. 18% gradients. What I'm wondering, is then whether it makes sense mostly to set trainer difficulty to percentage that maps the highest gradients you'll see in Watopia to what your trainer can really emulate. Eg. if your trainer can emulate only up to 12% gradient, and Zwift has 18% gradients, then setting trainer to 67% would make sense? This would ensure that at least an 18% Zwift gradient would feel different than a 12% gradient, albeit both would be easier than real life.. Setting to 100% would mean a 12% Zwift gradient would feel identical to an 18% gradient... I think(?)
With a wheel-on trainer, you can also get wheel slip if the resistance gets too high, and you can injure yourself were that to happen.

I don't have climbing gears on my bike - just a regular road cassette. In theory one can swap the cassette, but I don't think the derailleur can handle it, so I would need a different derailleur as well. It is easier to just leave the difficulty setting alone and keep riding.
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Old 01-10-18, 05:07 AM
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This is my second winter season on Zwift, using a Wahoo KICKR SNAP wheel-on trainer. In March of last year when I could start riding outdoors again, I was in the best shape ever - on my usual rides, it felt more like May or June (from a uphill agony/total ride time perspective) than what I usually felt like in March.

On Zwift I rotate through a bunch of different activities, keeps the boredom away:
  1. Just riding - pick one of the many pre-canned loops and keep riding on it until bored or run out of time
  2. Group rides - many include audio on Discord or Facebook live
  3. Workouts - huge choice in the Zwift dropdown menu
  4. Group workouts - these are new this year and I really enjoy them. Some are just automated, some include actual leaders sending instructions and replying to questions, some also have audio feeds.
  5. Custom workouts - I created a set of workouts from the "Time Crunched Cyclist" book by Chris Carmichael and mix those in.
  6. Races - I'm not a racer in the real world but on Zwift I've been doing about 1 a week. I suck, but great high intensity just pedal as hard as you can for 45 - 60 minutes workouts, with the incentive of seeing your placement at the end, matched against others that are similar in weight/power via the race categories.

Since any of those can occur in one of the three "lands" in Zwift and Zwift is regularly added more roads to many of the lands, boredom hasn't been an issue. Probably the biggest negative for me is doing long rides in a trainer is way tougher on my rear end than real road rides - no out of saddle time, the bike is rigidly upright, not getting off to wait out the occasional traffic light, etc.

This week, by mistake, I did my longest ride ever on Zwift - the hilly 30 mile 3 Sisters Loop, took me 2 hours. That was marginally OK - I think to do a three hour ride (the Watopia Pretzel!) at the two hour mark I will pretend I am pulling into a convenience store, get off the bike on the trainer, eat a fig bar, refill my water bottle, stretch and get back on - just like I do at about that mark when I'm biking IRL.
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Old 01-10-18, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by qajaq
Zwift really works well with a smart trainer. Try some group rides and races on Zwift. Some of the group rides will have breakaway flyers off the front you can draft or "race" with.. Look over the events list and you can find all sorts of stuff. You can also meet up with friends (from anywhere on the planet) and do a group ride or pace line.

One event I found particularly amusing was a cat and mouse event on Volcano Flat. Staggered start with D class riders getting a 6 minute head start over C class riders who got a 6 minute head start over the B class riders. Catch me if you can! Theoretically everyone would cross the line together.

You can also run the app Discord on your phone and converse with group leaders, sweeps and other riders.

The Chop???

It's based on Handicap racing which we do a lot of in Australia & New Zealand - great, fun races IRL that have you on the rivet for the entire race - either trying to catch the bunch in front and/or elude the bunch trying to catch yours!

cheers
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Old 01-10-18, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
The guess as to why Zwift defaults to 50% difficulty is that many smart trainers aren't capable of reproducing eg. 18% gradients.
I think its because it takes a certain amount of fitness and gearing to make it up a 16% grade with minimum cadence.

Not many people have the fitness AND grearing to do it. A 34x28 and 3.5 w/kg is about the minimum. Less w/kg and you better have a 34x32. More w/kg and maybe you can do it with a 39x28.

If they set difficulty to 100% by default, they would get many many people failing on Watopia mountain and just never trying zwift again.

Last edited by nycphotography; 01-10-18 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 01-10-18, 02:02 PM
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I'm not believing this. Are people REALLY emotionally involved in running down Zwift because Zwift isn't the real world? Really? (Is anyone really confused about that? I think not.)


It's a long winter. Try to hold it together, folks.
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Old 01-10-18, 02:28 PM
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As far as trainer simulation goes, it never made sense to me until I tried it up the radio tower. I mean how can it not effect your speed or watts of you're reducing it to half the grade?

So, I did the radio tower climb back to back, and after climbing up the mountain first. Set at 100 percent my cadence will drop down to 55 ish, 250-300 watts. It's a *****, but it should be with a 36/26. Dialed the setting back to 50 percent and I was able to hold my cadence 75-80 (sometimes a bit better) and even shift up on lesser grades. Same wattage 250-300 but I was over a minute slower. Now, was this because it was my second time up the tower, or was it because I could drop watts closer to the 250 without worrying about getting "stuck" and having to stop?
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Old 01-10-18, 02:37 PM
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If it was less of a *****, then there's your answer right there. lol
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Old 01-10-18, 02:50 PM
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Yep! It would be like probably having a 32 tooth on your cassette.

I was amazed the watts were the same and time was similar. The experience on the other hand.... not even close! Hard to dial a mountain back to 50% IRL
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Old 01-10-18, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by FlashBazbo
I'm not believing this. Are people REALLY emotionally involved in running down Zwift because Zwift isn't the real world? Really? (Is anyone really confused about that? I think not.)


It's a long winter. Try to hold it together, folks.
Well, it is my reality, probably until March.

Honestly, it's better than I expected for an indoor training solution. Greatly cuts down on boredom. No, it's not real, but I don't care.
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Old 01-10-18, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by 99Klein
As far as trainer simulation goes, it never made sense to me until I tried it up the radio tower. I mean how can it not effect your speed or watts of you're reducing it to half the grade?

So, I did the radio tower climb back to back, and after climbing up the mountain first. Set at 100 percent my cadence will drop down to 55 ish, 250-300 watts. It's a *****, but it should be with a 36/26. Dialed the setting back to 50 percent and I was able to hold my cadence 75-80 (sometimes a bit better) and even shift up on lesser grades. Same wattage 250-300 but I was over a minute slower. Now, was this because it was my second time up the tower, or was it because I could drop watts closer to the 250 without worrying about getting "stuck" and having to stop?
Funny, I tried setting it to 100% and only experienced a little wheel slip and lower cadence. I didn't like it. My aging knees prefer 50%.
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Old 01-10-18, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dmanthree
Funny, I tried setting it to 100% and only experienced a little wheel slip and lower cadence. I didn't like it. My aging knees prefer 50%.
No wheel slip on a Kickr :-)
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Old 01-10-18, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by nycphotography
I think its because it takes a certain amount of fitness and gearing to make it up a 16% grade with minimum cadence.

Not many people have the fitness AND grearing to do it. A 34x28 and 3.5 w/kg is about the minimum. Less w/kg and you better have a 34x32. More w/kg and maybe you can do it with a 39x28.

If they set difficulty to 100% by default, they would get many many people failing on Watopia mountain and just never trying zwift again.
Probably right, though probably also something to the fact that middle of the road smart trainers (eg. Tacx Vortex) only go to 7-8% -- meaning that 15% gradient is going to feel the same as an 8% in Zwift. I have no idea what any of this means for a dumb trainer. Put in the highest gear you have (eg. 53/11 would probably be the highest that can typically be found, more likely 50/11 these days), what gradient does this typically equal?

Sounds like maybe Zwift could add a new screen function! Maybe a little hot button that pops up on tough gradients labelled "Bailout Gear" that drops resistance in half, so as to avoid a fail.. kinda a virtual extended cassette range or imagining I have a Triple.
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