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Question regarding base rides, HR and power.

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Question regarding base rides, HR and power.

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Old 01-14-18, 01:40 AM
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deepakvrao
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Question regarding base rides, HR and power.

So, just started my base rides for the year, and have an issue that comes up every year, but I have never got it clarified.

Today, I did a 3 hour ride with wattage in my endurance zone. I pressed lap every 30 minutes. My avg HR for each lap was as follows:

123
139
142
145
150
153

My avg watts were almost the same for all the intervals, and bang in the centre of my power Z2.

So, I know that there is a HR dissociation due to weather, heat etc. Should I follow the wattage in spite of my HR going into zone 3? For me Z3 starts at 152, so if I do a 4 hour ride, the next 1 hour will be totally in HR Z3.
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Old 01-14-18, 06:50 AM
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Are your power numbers accurate? Are you certain that's zone 2 for you? If so, that much hr drift suggests that your aerobic fitness is pretty lacking at this point. I would expect that if you continue these rides as they are, that your hr would slowly settle back down. Also, if you're just starting training, plasma volume will be lower and your hr will be higher, so as you continue training hr will also lower a bit more.

In any case, if you have power, I would train with the power for workouts and use the hr as a "measuring stick" as you move throughout your training period to see how it's changing in regards to your fitness.
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Old 01-14-18, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Are your power numbers accurate? Are you certain that's zone 2 for you? If so, that much hr drift suggests that your aerobic fitness is pretty lacking at this point. I would expect that if you continue these rides as they are, that your hr would slowly settle back down. Also, if you're just starting training, plasma volume will be lower and your hr will be higher, so as you continue training hr will also lower a bit more.

In any case, if you have power, I would train with the power for workouts and use the hr as a "measuring stick" as you move throughout your training period to see how it's changing in regards to your fitness.

Pretty sure. Been cycling for 10 years. Coming back after a crash a few years ago. Last year has been pretty consistent. Probably not enough base, and too much high intensity. This year I'll do it right.
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Old 01-14-18, 07:39 AM
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If power was indeed in the middle of Z2, that's a huge HR drift. If not the most likely cause of lacking fitness, it may be your power zones are a bit off right now????
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Old 01-14-18, 05:13 PM
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If the purpose of base miles is to get your body re-trained for endurance riding using fat as fuel (rather than relying on carbs/muscle glycogen used for high intensity riding), then you want to do your base miles according to HR, minding to stay below AT, probably by 5% or so.
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Old 01-14-18, 06:52 PM
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I wouldn't count the first 1/2 hr number. Still warming up so HR will be low and not that relevant.
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Old 01-14-18, 07:36 PM
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At first, I'd say your zones may be a tad off, but what temps were you riding in? Anything above 30degC and that will play a part in a longer sustained ride, with dehydration, etc, having an impact...
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Old 01-15-18, 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Are your power numbers accurate? Are you certain that's zone 2 for you? If so, that much hr drift suggests that your aerobic fitness is pretty lacking at this point. I would expect that if you continue these rides as they are, that your hr would slowly settle back down. .
Originally Posted by RShantz View Post
If power was indeed in the middle of Z2, that's a huge HR drift. If not the most likely cause of lacking fitness, it may be your power zones are a bit off right now????
Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
I wouldn't count the first 1/2 hr number. Still warming up so HR will be low and not that relevant.
Originally Posted by macca33 View Post
At first, I'd say your zones may be a tad off, but what temps were you riding in? Anything above 30degC and that will play a part in a longer sustained ride, with dehydration, etc, having an impact...
Thanks guys for the help. Not what I wanted to hear but that's the way it is.

Repeated the ride today.

Some factors that may have skewed yesterday's ride:

1. I included warm up as a figure
2. I was not hydrated well
3. Started in 14C and finished at about 28C

So, today I did a 30 minute warmup, and then two one hour fifteen minute laps. The HR was 141 for the outgoing, and 140 for the return. Wattage was 2 watts higher on the return. I think that looks a lot better.
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Old 01-15-18, 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
If the purpose of base miles is to get your body re-trained for endurance riding using fat as fuel (rather than relying on carbs/muscle glycogen used for high intensity riding), then you want to do your base miles according to HR, minding to stay below AT, probably by 5% or so.
Not sure if that is the purpose. What exactly is the ideal base? I have read that if hours are limited, then some high intensity should be thrown in too?
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Old 01-15-18, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by deepakvrao View Post
Not sure if that is the purpose. What exactly is the ideal base? I have read that if hours are limited, then some high intensity should be thrown in too?
What is your purpose, then? You said “base miles,” which traditionally is that lower intensity training phase during the winter when ride time is reduced, and there are no races ahead to train for in the next few months. The concept to base miles is to maintain and rebuild basic aerobic capacity during a rest and indulgence season after a season of high intensity riding.

That’s what base miles usually means, is that what you’re doing? You tell me. I said “if”; do you know why you are doing them? I can’t tell you what’s ideal for you because I don’t know you or how you ride. Maybe “base miles” are not what you’re doing or need to be doing, how would I know? Maybe you’re doing generally periodized training, and never go through an exhaustion phase? I don’t know those things about you.
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Old 01-15-18, 06:04 AM
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Have you tested this indoor? With an controled enviroment you could see whats going on, when your HR increse and why. But as you said, probaly the temperature diference has something to do with this.
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Old 01-15-18, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
I wouldn't count the first 1/2 hr number. Still warming up so HR will be low and not that relevant.
Disagree. For a 30 min average, that's very relevant. I'd actually expect a slight decrease after warmup (unless it's really warm), but that may be just personal to me.
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Old 01-15-18, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by deepakvrao View Post
Not sure if that is the purpose. What exactly is the ideal base? I have read that if hours are limited, then some high intensity should be thrown in too?
Base is everything you've ever done in your life.

In periodization terms, a base period is simply building general fitness. Whether you do that with a gargantuan amount of lower-intensity hours, or a low amount of higher-intensity, or something in between is dependent on your history and your goals.

Personally, I average about 8-10 hours with an average ~.75 to .85 intensity factor, with some days at .9 (meaning approximately 90% of ftp). But I don't believe in recovery/z1 rides and don't have the time to do a ton of low z2, so I make my miles count.
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Old 01-15-18, 03:50 PM
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With such a huge variability in heart rates at different occasions with a given power number, what is the value of training or tracking with heart rate?
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Old 01-15-18, 04:10 PM
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When I do base rides, I go by HR some, but mostly I go by breathing, keeping it at or below VT1: https://www.acefitness.org/fitness-c...t2-and-vo2-max

Ignore power, but think about this: Base training is about staying below efforts which cause an increase in blood lactate, which starts above VT1. You'll see some HR drift but not as much as you reported here. HR drift decreases with training in all zones. Zone 3 and 4 intervals will decrease HR drift in zone 2. I'm not a fan of only base. I like the 80:20 approach, or for geezers like me, 90:10. Mostly go at or below VT1, but also do hard efforts of various sorts, just concentrate more on VT1 and below during your base season. You'll also see your power start to hold steady at VT1. That's the thing to watch for.
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Old 01-15-18, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Disagree. For a 30 min average, that's very relevant. I'd actually expect a slight decrease after warmup (unless it's really warm), but that may be just personal to me.
For me if I start from cold on a moderate intensity ride it takes 10-15mins before my HR climbs and stabilizes at the level I would expect.
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Old 01-16-18, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
For me if I start from cold on a moderate intensity ride it takes 10-15mins before my HR climbs and stabilizes at the level I would expect.
Same here.
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Old 01-16-18, 12:52 PM
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