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700 = 622 ...wait, wut?

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700 = 622 ...wait, wut?

Old 02-04-18, 12:09 PM
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700 = 622 ...wait, wut?

I guess this is an etymology question: Why do all of my 700c tires say "622" on them? What's the derivation of those numbers, and how do they correlate?
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Old 02-04-18, 12:16 PM
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Old 02-04-18, 01:12 PM
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700c is a French tire size designation. 622 is the ETRTO international standard for the same tire size. Gory details on: Sheldon Brown's page on tire sizing
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Old 02-04-18, 02:01 PM
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Don't try to make sense of it. Just learn the ETRTO marking system and be happy.
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Old 02-04-18, 02:05 PM
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Old 02-04-18, 02:52 PM
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Why do my new tires say 25-28"
Do they stretch THAT much? That doesn't seem safe!
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Old 02-04-18, 03:02 PM
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It's about changing standards and nomenclature.

Historically bicycle tire nominal sizes were based on the overall diameter (tire on wheel) with a letter designation to specify a width. The rim was sized on a "fits 111x" basis. In some countries they used fractional designations ie. 28 x 1/5/8" or 27 x 1-1/4". Coinfusion was one of the problems among many because, for example 27" tires were bigger than 28"

Eventually the European Tire and Rim makers got together to form a Technical Organization, ETRTO to establish standards and nomenclature. The XXX-xx nomenclature clearly spells out the bead fit and nominal width of tires, and the tech data implied tells both tire and rim makers exactly what that means. This also benefits consumers because it ends the old nomenclature where the same tire might be labeled differently in France, Italy or England, or (worse) the same tire marking might mean something very different in those countries.
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Old 02-04-18, 03:02 PM
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wuuuut? I thought 700c were the same as 29rs but they're 622s too, which are sometimes called, 28 Inchers? Oh my...
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Old 02-04-18, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
wuuuut? I thought 700c were the same as 29rs but they're 622s too, which are sometimes called, 28 Inchers? Oh my...
Not to be confused with 27" wheels, which are bigger than all of those...
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Old 02-04-18, 04:32 PM
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If anyone here finds this complicated, we should not even venture into 26 x anything tires
The E.T.R.T.O findings for 26" tires are so arcane that they are almost witchcraft

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Old 02-04-18, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
They got a lot of that right. But they missed on some very important points.

First, I'm a little surprised and disappointed that those brits gave "credit" (a dubious honor, to be sure) to the French for the tire sizing scheme. It was a British system that the French adopted! Then metricated, and then kind of ruined. If you convert the metric BSD to inches, it might start to make sense. More in a sec.

Second, GCN call the rim sizes "arbitrary." But they aren't. What was arbitrary, in a sense, was the outside diameter. 28" (which size you may see on a tire from time to time) was the British standard outside diameter of larger road wheels. I suppose they arrived at that after much trial and error, but it was pretty standardized by the mid-1890s.

GCN was correct that the idea was to keep outside diameter the same, but have options for tire width. In Britain, the tire sizes changed in fractional increments. The 28" tires (smallest to largest) were 1¼", 1⅜", 1½", and 1¾".

To calculate the rim diameters, you double the tire width (because you're using two sections of the tire for the measurement, top and bottom) and subtract that from 28". That gives you rim diameters of (largest to smallest) 25½", 25¼", 25", and 24½". So far so good.

So now let's swim on over to France. I guess inches wouldn't do for a proud Metric country like France so they rounded 28" down a bit to 700mm. Close enough. And they adopted the rim and tire sizes as the were, also metricating them.
So your rim diameters end up as 647mm, 642mm, 635mm, and (voilà!) 622mm. Any of those sound familiar?*

They kind of ruined things by naming these rim and tire sizes 700, 700A, 700B, and 700C. Unlike the English system it appropriated, the French tire size naming convention is relative, not absolute. In the English system, the tire size is clear. Some simple math tells you your rim size.
In the French system, all you know is that 700A is different from 700, 700B, and 700C, but it's not clear whether it's smaller or bigger. If you figure out that the tire size gets bigger as you go through the alphabet, you still can't calculate how big the differences are. Only when you know the English units that were originally used can you figure that out.

This is why I would prefer the French system go the way of the dodo, and we can stick to the ETRTO/ISO designations, which return to a rational and absolute measurement naming convention. It's not like they're new; they've been around since 1964. Can we please get on board with that?

BTW you can do all the same maths with most 26"/650 rims and tires. Arcane? yes. Witchcraft? not really.

(*700 is totally obsolete, AFAIK. 700A is still available, though rare. 700B is still found on "Dutch" city bikes, and of course we all know 700C. And the GCN guys missed one thing because of the 28"-to-700mm rounding off. An "original" 700C tire would be, of course, 1¾", which is about 45mm, not 40mm.)

And now you know.
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Old 02-04-18, 07:08 PM
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Read this:

https://jclindbikes.com/2016/01/23/w...hey-are-weird/
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Old 02-04-18, 07:12 PM
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By the way, these old French size conventions properly refer ONLY to clincher rims and tires! Tubular/single tube tires, for some reason, seem only to have used the smallest rim size of a given range. That's why 28" tubulars use a 24½"/622mm rim, and 26" tubulars use a 22½"/571mm rim, which correspond to the French clincher sizes of 700C and 650C, respectively. But it is incorrect to refer to a tubular as those French sizes.
Not only that, but the ETRTO naming convention for tubulars sticks to the original inch size, and uses a mm width. Thus you will have a 23-28" tubular, or a 19-26" tubular. Not all tire makers use that convention, but European ones like Vittoria and Conti do. The equivalent clinchers, of course, would be 23-622 and 19-571 (700C x 23 and 650C x 19 in old money.)
Tire manufacturers themselves don't always know their history. So yes, you will see many tires labeled as such. It's an error. So please don't send me a bunch of old catalogs that show "700C tubulars," I've seen them.
The original scheme was clinchers, period.
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Old 02-04-18, 07:14 PM
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I got 28" for my 29er


& They fit
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Old 02-04-18, 07:19 PM
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Oh, one more thing, sorry!:

The small "c" often appended to the end of a French tire size originally meant the tire was for "crochet" rims, or hook beads, and not straight-sided rims. Apparently since it seemed redundant to have a "700C x 23c" or even a "700 x 23Cc" tire, someone eliminated one of them. Not like anyone knew what the Cs meant anyway.

Originally, the distinction was important. You had to match the rim and the tire bead, as you could not pump up a tire for straight-sided rims nearly as hard as a hook-bead tire, even on a hook-bead rim. And a hook-bead tire would not hold pressure on a straight-sided rim. Nowadays of course pretty much everything is hook bead so it's mostly academic.

But once again, now you know.
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Old 02-04-18, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Ghrumpy View Post
Oh, one more thing, sorry!:

The small "c" often appended to the end of a French tire size originally meant the tire was for "crochet" rims, or hook beads, and not straight-sided rims. Apparently since it seemed redundant to have a "700C x 23c" or even a "700 x 23Cc" tire, someone eliminated one of them. Not like anyone knew what the Cs meant anyway.

Originally, the distinction was important. You had to match the rim and the tire bead, as you could not pump up a tire for straight-sided rims nearly as hard as a hook-bead tire, even on a hook-bead rim. And a hook-bead tire would not hold pressure on a straight-sided rim. Nowadays of course pretty much everything is hook bead so it's mostly academic.

But once again, now you know.

The other 700 sizes used hooked rims and tires too.

Find any 700A or 700B or 700D, you'll have hooked rims in need of clincher-style tires too. Which is why "700C" has less to do with "crochet" and more to do with differentiating from the other 3 or 4 clincher rim/tire sizes that were all 700 nominal.

https://restoringvintagebicycles.com/tag/700a-rims/
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Old 02-04-18, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
They totally got one thing wrong. He admits he got all that info by osmosis, and not by research.

But just to clear that one thing up: The 700D size was never part of the French scheme. It was a made-up size that GT invented for their hybrids, supposedly to avoid some kind of import duties. AFAIK nobody else ever used it.

And even the French wouldn't do something as irrational as making a 700-series rim diameter that is smaller than the biggest two 650-series rims.

As far as the 26 x 2.125"/559mm/22" rim size, that was referred to by the French as "650 Ballon," not 650D. There were no D sizes in the French scheme.
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Old 02-04-18, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
The other 700 sizes used hooked rims and tires too.

Find any 700A or 700B or 700D, you'll have hooked rims in need of clincher-style tires too. Which is why "700C" has less to do with "crochet" and more to do with differentiating from the other 3 or 4 clincher rim/tire sizes that were all 700 nominal.

https://restoringvintagebicycles.com/tag/700a-rims/
Right, "700C" has nothing directly to do with "crochet" rims, nor with any of the other 700-series clincher tire sizes. That's what I was saying, at least regarding rims. You can make a crochet rim in any size you like. But in olden tyme, all of these would be wired-on or straight-sided rims, at least in the first three-fourths of the twentieth century, so I'm not sure what you mean by "hooked rims and tires." There are a few different tires those terms could conceivably refer to. That's also why the ISO terms might be preferable to the French, because the "C" used in their designations means something more specific than in the obsolete French system.

So as not to add to the confusion, or maybe to add to it inadvertently, let me establish some terms here, acknowledging that such terms are not consistent across time, or languages. Not an exhaustive list either.
I'm not saying these are the preferred terms, just explaining where they came from, and what some standards mean. Subject to correction, of course, because I'm still in the middle of researching some of this stuff. But as of right now, I can say this with moderate confidence:

"Clincher" originally referred to a detachable tire that fit to a rim with a pronounced hooked bead. The tire bead had a correspondingly pronounced edge to fit that hook, but not necessarily with a metal wire in it. It was mostly held on by the bead, as the tire sat more or less on top of the beads. The tires were generally rounder than "wired-on" tires. Some, unsurprisingly, were known as "beaded-edge" tires. There were a few competing versions of these, but they all lost out to the "wired-on" system eventually.

"Wired-on" originally referred to a detachable tire that fit to a rim that had straight inside walls, at least compared to a "clincher." Tires had a wire bead without a pronounced edge and were mostly held on by the pressure inside the tire pressing down and out on the rim.
What are now called "clinchers" in the USA descended from antique-era "wired-on" tires, and the latter term is still used by some old-timers in Britain, as I have been told. It's rare to see an actual "wired-on" tire in the USA. I've only seen them on Chinese and Indian roadsters that were imported here.
"Wired-on" rims appeared to get the name "straight-sided" when they assumed the deep U-shape they have now, sometime in the 1930s I believe. Maybe earlier.

"Hook-bead" originally referred to what I understand was an American development, where steel rims got actual rolled and hooked edges. The rims are now designated with a different marking ("HB"), but the tires do not always carry the designation. Their tires are now conventionally known as "beaded-edge" tires. (I know, it's confusing.) Not part of the French alphanumeric system. But common enough to have an ISO designation. Now found mostly on children's bikes, I believe.

"Crochet" (French for "hook") refers to a relatively recent development, originally mostly to accommodate higher pressures, narrower tires, and kevlar beads. It's a French name because it was pioneered by Michelin, working with French rim manufacturers. The rims are basically as the "wired-on", but have a small channel just below the top of the inside wall, or a small hooked edge. Much much smaller and less pronounced than the original "hook-bead" and "clincher" rims, the latter being obsolete. "Crochet" rims are now ISO designated with an upper-case "C".

This last "crochet" rim and tire combination is what almost everyone calls clinchers nowadays, at least in the USA, and what practically every adult bike in bike shops will have. Of course there are now different types of hooks and beads for tubeless tires, it's an evolving system, as it ever was. But for your modern standard high-performance clincher tire, you have "crochet" rims. Which I earlier referred to as hook beaded rims, because that's what most people call them, but which is sort of technically incorrect by some standards.

What were we talking about again?
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Old 02-04-18, 11:07 PM
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If anyone is interested, ETRTO is not just for bicycles; It is also used for everything from airplanes to wheelbarrows.
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Old 02-05-18, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Ghrumpy View Post
By the way, these old French size conventions properly refer ONLY to clincher rims and tires! Tubular/single tube tires, for some reason, seem only to have used the smallest rim size of a given range. That's why 28" tubulars use a 24½"/622mm rim, and 26" tubulars use a 22½"/571mm rim, which correspond to the French clincher sizes of 700C and 650C, respectively.
Unless it's a MTB tubular, which is 559.
https://www.bike24.com/p2110598.html
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Old 02-05-18, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets View Post
Unless it's a MTB tubular, which is 559.
https://www.bike24.com/p2110598.html
Good catch! Of course I was referring to road/track/CX tubulars. (And I don't really wanna get into the 26-27.5-29 thing right now....)

By the way, Dugast will transplant a size-compatible tread of your choice onto one of their tubular casings if their own treads don't suit your needs. (For a modest fee, of course.) This could be a cool way to get an antique 26" or 28" single-tube bike back on the road. I don't know of anyone making a rideable single-tube tire any more.
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Old 02-05-18, 03:58 PM
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I'm so sorry I read this thread. I knew everything I thought I needed to know and now I'm totally confused.
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Old 02-05-18, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil View Post
The E.T.R.T.O findings for 26" tires are so arcane that they are almost witchcraft
The ETRTO markings for nominal 26" tires are perfectly clear; it's the pre-ETRTO size designations that are a hot mess.
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Old 02-05-18, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by popeye View Post
I'm so sorry I read this thread. I knew everything I thought I needed to know and now I'm totally confused.
What part do you need clarified?

But really, unless you are interested in vintage or antique bikes, or arcana and esoterica, all you really need to know is the ETRTO/ISO designations. Srsly. And there is a really good Wikipedia page for that. Tires made since 1964 will have the numbers you need to know printed right on them.

All that historical stuff is academic. I like it, but it just makes me one of those annoying people who knows too much about things that nobody else cares about. IOW I'm not much fun at parties.
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Old 02-06-18, 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Ghrumpy View Post
all you really need to know is the ETRTO/ISO designations.
ISO has nothing to do with it. These number come from ETRTO.
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