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Tubulars and pros

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Tubulars and pros

Old 02-13-18, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001
... I’ve known women who are pros that make more than that but according to you aren’t pros because they are women.

....and with that Doge is on a block list due to blantant sexism.
...
You can name the woman paid over $30K/year to race if you wish.
But no women to be used as examples for the OP (but the OP can answer), because they don't have the average speed or power, or weight (average) that makes them good data points for testing equipment in road racing.

That and when you are talking pro teams women's teams don't do the distance or the courses, and very few choose to ride over sidewalks and curbs and -in general- their equipment is much less under stress. So not really all that useful for testing.

Last edited by Doge; 02-13-18 at 07:35 PM.
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Old 02-13-18, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnJ80
Getting a tubular off a rim is a fair bit easier than getting a tubeless clincher off and back on again as far as I'm concerned. I don't think this is a mechanic issue at all. It's simply not that difficult anymore especially when you bring road tubeless clinchers into the discussion.
LoL...... Your funny. No, changing a tubular on the side of the road is no big deal but properly cleaning a rim of old cement, curing the new cement, stretching the tire....etc...etc..... is a huge pain in the ass and anyone who does it know thats the truth. Tubeless was not part of the conversation.
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Old 02-14-18, 01:54 PM
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See: Joseba Beloki
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Old 02-14-18, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by pickettt
See: Joseba Beloki
How is this relevant? His wreck wasn't caused by a puncture.
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Old 02-14-18, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by noodle soup
How is this relevant? His wreck wasn't caused by a puncture.
I wasn't aware that the thread was about punctures.
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Old 02-14-18, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by pickettt
I wasn't aware that the thread was about punctures.
Well, his wreck was caused by a loss of traction. How is that relevant to the Tubular/Clincher/Tubeless debate that this thread has become?
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Old 02-14-18, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by pickettt
I wasn't aware that the thread was about punctures.
This thread ISN'T about punctures, you're right.

There's a possibility Beloki wouldn't have crashed on a clincher.

And clinchers can go flat without coming off the rim and causing crashes... tubulars are maybe a little better in this regard.
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Old 02-14-18, 04:00 PM
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I was telling my wife about this.
Originally Posted by Psimet2001
....and with that Doge is on a block list due to blantant sexism.
Originally Posted by Psimet2001
Define "pro".
Originally Posted by Doge
... or cookie baking.
And while she read it as me saying women should bake cookies, and to be clear, I think everyone should bake cookies for me, she pointed out my reference was a bit subtle.

I was referring to someone that did not make it as a pro cyclist, who is making a living on his marketing and entertaining - and cookies.
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Old 02-14-18, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by garysol1
LoL...... Your funny. No, changing a tubular on the side of the road is no big deal but properly cleaning a rim of old cement, curing the new cement, stretching the tire....etc...etc..... is a huge pain in the ass and anyone who does it know thats the truth. Tubeless was not part of the conversation.
The Effetto Mariposa tape is pretty easy to get off the little bit that remains. Really like the stuff.

J.
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Old 02-14-18, 09:55 PM
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Tony Martin indeed runs clinchers for his TT, the Irish team Aqua Blue uses clinchers in the pro peloton, GCN did a video of Adam Blythe bike and stated the whole team would be running those that year and next.
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Old 02-15-18, 10:16 PM
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No pro is going to use clinchers in anything but training rides due to the insurmountable performance disadvantages. Look at the cross section of a clincher rim... see the two hooks that are required to keep the clincher tire on? Not required on tubular rims. The hooks are heavy at the very worst possible place on a bike (rotating mass).

The rim weight advantage is why tubulars are used in elite level competition past, present, and will be until the end of time.
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Old 02-15-18, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
No pro is going to use clinchers in anything but training rides due to the insurmountable performance disadvantages.
Incorrect.
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Old 02-16-18, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by noodle soup
Incorrect.
You're correct. Pros may use race clinchers under the following limited conditions:
  1. You are an world-class time-trialist, and your tire and wheel sponsors drive a dump truck full of money up to your house so that you can hold your nose and suffer it out once a year on clinchers over a short & flat time trial.
  2. You belong to some poor-boy third-tier pro team and your team cannot afford to run tubulars
  3. Or your tire or wheel sponsors do not have tubular options. In that case you have to relabel your (real) tubular wheels and tires with your sponsors stickers and tire labels.
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Old 02-17-18, 10:07 AM
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Something being overlooked here is that professional road cycling is deeply rooted in tradition. Tubular tires are part of that tradition. The advantages of tubular tires have slowly been chipped away by advances in tubeless tires and rim shape.
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Old 02-17-18, 02:07 PM
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Tubeless tires use clincher rims, with all the same weight, safety and structural strength disadvantages relative to tubular rims.

Pro cyclists are early adopters; they get the latest beta tech years before the target consumer market (dentists). If there is a 0.001% advantage of the new stuff relative to the old stuff, they are on it immediately.

They are purely interested in winning tech, so the good stuff gets rapidly adopted (carbon everything, and electronic shifting), and the stupid stuff get ignored (disk brakes and tubeless).
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Old 02-17-18, 07:28 PM
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As in interesting aside to this conversation. I got a bike recently that came with a set of wheels identified by ex team members as the standard Team Saturn wheels from back in the 90s. Nice alloy wheels that I will be setting up and using. But weight-wise they have been hugely passed by even modern clinchers. A set of Fulcrum Racing 3's with standard butyl tubes and 700 x 25 Conti GP 4000s II clinchers comes in a pound lighter than the complete tubular setup they used to use. So now we say after 25 years clinchers have caught up and passed the tubulars of the 90s, weight wise....
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Old 02-17-18, 10:49 PM
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+1 to pros not using clinchers or tubeless "most of the time" but it does happen occasionally during a TT.

--

FWIW, from an interview with Jonathon Vaughters, Director of Cannondale-Drapac, in advance of the 2017 Tour de France Stage 20 ITT:

Ridemedia: "With regard to the specifics of the time trial, you have disc brake bike options; what’s Rigo’s set-up going to be?"

Vaughters: “We’re using just the rim brake bike. We’re using a front, tubeless aerodynamic wheel which is new technology, and a rear disc with a clincher tyres which is almost the same design as the tubeless but not quite.”

Vaughters Q&A: "There?s a chance..." - Ride Media

I also seem to recall Vaughters saying something on the telecast about the team, or at least some of their riders, using tubeless during the rainy prologue. Something about being able to use lower air pressure for added traction. I can't find a reference for this though.
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Old 02-18-18, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by pickettt
See: Joseba Beloki
beloki's tire came off the rim as a result of the crash; not the cause of the crash.

FWIW, I was there that day, and rode the course ahead of the race.
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Old 02-18-18, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
No pro is going to use clinchers in anything but training rides due to the insurmountable performance disadvantages. Look at the cross section of a clincher rim... see the two hooks that are required to keep the clincher tire on? Not required on tubular rims. The hooks are heavy at the very worst possible place on a bike (rotating mass).

The rim weight advantage is why tubulars are used in elite level competition past, present, and will be until the end of time.
Dude,
Give it up. You've been spouting this same line for years, with no acknowledgement of changing technology, or observable facts.
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Old 02-18-18, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
beloki's tire came off the rim as a result of the crash; not the cause of the crash..
Yep.

He was out of control because of the slick road surface.
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Old 02-18-18, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
beloki's tire came off the rim as a result of the crash; not the cause of the crash.

FWIW, I was there that day, and rode the course ahead of the race.

I would say yes and no. Rather, no and yes; No, it did not cause the loss of traction, but the tire rolled before the crash, making it near impossible to recover (not that that one was going to be easy to recover from anyway.) I'll tell you why I say this; As I watch the DVD (not YouTube), after the tire breaks traction, it hooks up again. When it hooks up, I can clearly see three hoops....the rim, the tire, and what I presume to be the shadow of one of the aforementioned two. This is the point I would say that tire rolled.

Last edited by pickettt; 02-18-18 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 02-18-18, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by pickettt
I would say yes and no. Rather, no and yes; No, it did not cause the loss of traction, but the tire rolled before the crash, making it near impossible to recover (not that that one was going to be easy to recover from anyway.) I'll tell you why I say this; As I watch the DVD (not YouTube), after the tire breaks traction, it hooks up again. When it hooks up, I can clearly see three hoops....the rim, the tire, and what I presume to be the shadow of one of the aforementioned two. This is the point I would say that tire rolled.
The tire rolled, but it didn't cause the wreck.
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Old 02-18-18, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
Dude,
Give it up. You've been spouting this same line for years, with no acknowledgement of changing technology, or observable facts.
Well: here are the facts... out of thousands of individual stages ran by racers at the world tour level, less than a handful are run on clinchers. Tony Martin: maybe one stage per year? These occurrences are invariably flat solo time trials, where weight and safety are not critical. There are more stages run using disk brakes than clinchers, which is also close to zero.

Second fact is that tubular rims are and always will be lighter than clincher rims because they don't need the rim hooks/protrusions required to keep the tire on. There is no way for clinchers to catch up to tubulars. The weight spread is currently about 100 grams per rim, and if anything, with carbon rims, this weight spread has increased due to carbon tubulars being better at heat dissipation.

Finally, safety. We've all experienced rapid tire blowouts. With clinchers, this is a terrifying and usually unrecoverable experience. With tubulars, as long as you are not going sideways already (Beloki), it is a much more manageable and safe experience.

I'm not in the industry, so I don't have to flog product and false expectations to dentists. So here are the straight goods: the pros ride tubulars and always will.
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Old 02-18-18, 11:25 PM
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@Dave Mayer
Thought I'd ask. For a TT - Vittoria Corsa Speed G+ 23 (really 21.8), Velofex Record 22 (really 22.5) or FMB Record Silks?
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Old 02-18-18, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
...observable facts.
No logic or argument is needed here. Just the facts - to the OP which was about teams that race with clinchers most of the time. I already posted it is done in the TT. But for "real pros" road racing - hard to find. and if they really do, I'd think they would publish it.

What world tour teams state they road race clinchers? I know of none.

What pro continental teams state they road race with clinchers? Maybe Aqua Blue Sport? I have not seen the statement. I'd believe it as they are running disc brakes and 1X so clearly not main stream.

I don't really think the rest count.

I'm happy to read data.

Last edited by Doge; 02-20-18 at 11:56 AM.
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