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Question on power

Old 03-23-18, 07:57 AM
  #151  
asgelle
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
I suspect you're significantly overestimating the length of effort where muscular strength becomes less important than aerobic ability ...
An oldie but goodie (though perhaps not the final word). Strength vs. power
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Old 03-23-18, 08:24 AM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
An oldie but goodie (though perhaps not the final word). Strength vs. power
Also this:
How anaerobic is the 800m? - Book of Running

Even < 5 minute efforts are mainly aerobic in nature, to say nothing of a 20 minute effort or 45 like what I suggested. Unless you're somehow building your aerobic energy system in the gym, it stands to reason that the performance gains you're going to get for any effort over a minute or two is going to be limited.

I DO think lifting is going to make cyclists faster. Just that it is something to supplement your bike riding with, not a focus of your training (except perhaps for a few weeks in the off-season). There are studies that show lifting improves performance when compared to just cycling. However, it's important to note that most of the time, these studies are done on cyclists that have spent far more time riding than lifting previously and thus, are seeing "beginner gains" in the gym, while being far past the time where they can make rapid improvements on the bike. They are also generally short term studies. I'm not aware of any multi-year study where a cyclist (or other endurance athlete) makes lifting weights a focus of their training.
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Old 03-23-18, 08:26 AM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
Yes it is clear. But as johnlvs2run says, you're making an apples to oranges comparison.

A PM is a tool to track your power output, either in real time or after the fact, on a bike. It is not a separate activity from riding your bike. ...
I use them as you say. In that I agree with your logic. It is not the same as weights.

It is a separate activity when using them to train. A book like Training and Racing with a power meter by Hunter Allen and Andrew Coggan are familiar to many. That book specifically lies out things to do as a separate activity to train to power. The rider is adjusting their effort based on what the number on their head unit says. There are of course variations of this that coaches even have businesses around. They tell the rider how to ride and use a PM to guide it. If the goal of these riders is usually to get faster in the least amount of time, I suggest weights, and reducing bike time, even training to a power number. If the goal is to spend time on the bike, as it often is...just ride, but I am not convinced anything you can do on the bike alone will be as effective in the same time period as lifting (for the 5-20 hour/week USA kinda rider). Maybe it can be - I am not convinced and BF logic, or books are not going to change my mind. I registered my opinion on this thread - and others as that is a purpose of forums - to have contrasting opinion. I frankly post less on threads I agree with. Lube is good, yea lube is good, this lube is better are not my kinda threads, although I do get taken in.

For me, now in my late 50s and wife in 60s we still ride with PM. We don't train to get better. We ride because we like bikes. We run because it is time efficient.
Of the group of friends my son started racing with (he started age 8) about 30% stopped the bike, 30% are rec Cat 1s and in college, 30% are pros. Some of the pros are not as fast as some of the college kids. I'm sure that will change. Many had coaches. I got to see contrast training styles. I'm in no position to use names. There are some very fast kids who's training methods I don't know. But the weight lifting kids are at the top for speed.
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Old 03-23-18, 08:50 AM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
So you say... and yet the last 10? 20? 50? world time trial championships would seem to prove otherwise.
Can you show me how they trained? We do not know how the TT champions train.
We can see how they race. Most have a PM in races. But we don't know if it is just a recording device or if they are looking at the numbers and responding to what the numbers say. Guys like Taylor Finney - a world junior ITT champion, and USA's best (maybe) say they do not use a PM for racing. I'd argue if nothing is coming next - no running, no next stage - turn the display off and go for it. We do know that the world hour record, and every track event is set without using one to look at - that is the rules for the track. But they have someone calling time, so similar. But the track is a very repeatable thing you don't get on the road. And certainly don't get with other people.

For training, it is very hard to tell what is done in what combo. I know some lift. The more skewed toward speed events (track) the more you see lifting. I don't think the RAAM guys need to lift, but it might not hurt. The muscle give the body something to eat.
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Old 03-23-18, 09:11 AM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Can you show me how they trained? We do not know how the TT champions train.
We have a fairly good idea how they train. Lots of pros have given some insight into their training, and there is no reason to expect these guys to be significantly different.

My point was: the guys winning the World TT Championships, which are typically less than an hour, are pretty much always the "slow" (your description) World Tour guys. Why is that? Why isn't it someone who spends a lot of time lifting? Most TTs are fairly flat, so there's no reason why a larger and stronger man can't win. Why don't they?

You compared a HS miler to a marathon runner in a previous post, why isn't a 4k individual pursuit rider dominating these <1 hour time trials?
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Old 03-23-18, 09:15 AM
  #156  
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Not sure if it's been said or not, but riding against the wind, even though 250 watts is 250 watts, you may be sitting at a different angle, than what you're used to? Possibly using a different muscle group? Crosswinds, I've noticed i can be a little more tired than a 'no wind' day, i guess because it's a constant effort to stay in a straight line?
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Old 03-23-18, 09:27 AM
  #157  
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doge knows what hes talking about because i think he has a son who races, or something
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Old 03-23-18, 11:27 AM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Guys like Taylor Finney - a world junior ITT champion, and USA's best (maybe) say they do not use a PM for racing.
First, you may want to consider Taylor Phinney, not Taylor Finney (Albert's son?) You've gotten it wrong twice in this thread.

Second, Phinney's objection to power meters is basically a philosophical viewpoint, not a rejection of their utility:

"If you keep on with this trend, it's like a human that doesn't think, doesn't process anything, like a hamster on a wheel, you just set him and he goes, like a video game. But cycling is the most beautifully sensory experience you can have as a human. Like, you're flying, you're levitating, riding on two wheels magically balancing, going up and down mountains, you can ride for like 12 hours and still keep going. That's the heart and soul of cycling - not the numbers. It has to keep coming back to that."
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Old 03-23-18, 07:38 PM
  #159  
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My question is, when I look at my zone distribution on Strava, what is good and what is bad? Cards on the table, I'm getting ready for a century with about 5000 feet of climbing in a month or so. Today I went out and did a solo 50 miles with about 2500 feet of climbing. I'm trying to manage my very limited supply of energy, so I have my Garmin set to show me what zone I'm in. I try to keep zones 3 and 4 showing as much as possible. So how do I know when I did well at managing energy? What is a zone distribution supposed to look like when a skillful user of a power meter rides for endurance?
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Old 03-23-18, 09:07 PM
  #160  
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Originally Posted by ZippyThePinhead View Post
My question is, when I look at my zone distribution on Strava, what is good and what is bad? Cards on the table, I'm getting ready for a century with about 5000 feet of climbing in a month or so. Today I went out and did a solo 50 miles with about 2500 feet of climbing. I'm trying to manage my very limited supply of energy, so I have my Garmin set to show me what zone I'm in. I try to keep zones 3 and 4 showing as much as possible. So how do I know when I did well at managing energy? What is a zone distribution supposed to look like when a skillful user of a power meter rides for endurance?
I can't speak to my own skill level, but this is fairly typical of my longer efforts, if I'm out there to make distance and not just burn matches. Most of your time will really be in Z1-- that is, if your zones have been set based on an FTP test.


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Old 03-23-18, 09:09 PM
  #161  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
First, you may want to consider Taylor Phinney, not Taylor Finney (Albert's son?) You've gotten it wrong twice in this thread.

Second, Phinney's objection to power meters is basically a philosophical viewpoint, not a rejection of their utility:

"If you keep on with this trend, it's like a human that doesn't think, doesn't process anything, like a hamster on a wheel, you just set him and he goes, like a video game. But cycling is the most beautifully sensory experience you can have as a human. Like, you're flying, you're levitating, riding on two wheels magically balancing, going up and down mountains, you can ride for like 12 hours and still keep going. That's the heart and soul of cycling - not the numbers. It has to keep coming back to that."
Is this true? From https://www.bikeradar.com/forums/vie...php?t=12739741
"In the new mens fitness it states that Fab deadlifts 200kg even though he only weighs 80kg
Also i think it was the tour of britain where they said that in winter Greipel does a lot of upper body work in the gym.
Allan Peiper in his book says that Robbie Mccewen does a lot of weight training in the gym.
Has anyone got any ideas what exercises these guys do?
Ive seen Lance's training video's on youtube and i remember a piece on the tour back in 91 that showed lemonds home gym and he talked about doing heavy squats and leg presses."


Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
....
My point was: the guys winning the World TT Championships, which are typically less than an hour, are pretty much always the "slow" (your description) World Tour guys. Why is that? ...
They lift weights?

Last edited by Doge; 03-23-18 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 03-23-18, 10:21 PM
  #162  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
I can't speak to my own skill level, but this is fairly typical of my longer efforts, if I'm out there to make distance and not just burn matches. Most of your time will really be in Z1-- that is, if your zones have been set based on an FTP test.


This is helpful. I had thought I was looking for something more normal-looking. I have a friend, who is a few years older, super-fit, lives to ride (unlike me, I ride to live). Rides every day, just about. 7000 miles in a year, and in 2017, more than 380,000 feet of climbing.

He goes out for TT practice, and his distribution looks like this:



I go out for 50 miles with some climbing, and this is my distribution:



To be direct, my distributions often look less normal. I'm trying to become more disciplined, less based on how I feel at any given moment. So am I looking for a distribution more right-skewed (i.e., skewed towards Z7)?
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Old 03-23-18, 11:35 PM
  #163  
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I have to ask, how did you set your power zones? Because unless you are very small and light, I really don't see neuromuscular being +255W. I'm not a particularly powerful rider (though I am fairly large) and 255 is in my Z3.

As to the other guy, that's not really what a TT practice breakdown should look like. That's a relatively spirited ride, but there should be a lot more zoot (Z4/Z5/Z6) if it is at all meant to look like a TT effort. Your 50 mile ride looks like a TT effort, and with that zone distribution-- if accurate-- you should have been completely wrecked afterward. You would have spent literally half of the time above threshold-- like an hour and 40 minutes. That would be exceptionally tough to do. I personally do not do TTs, and the notion of them is despicable, but I can make a decent effort every now and again.

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Old 03-24-18, 12:51 AM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Is this true? From https://www.bikeradar.com/forums/vie...php?t=12739741
"In the new mens fitness it states that Fab deadlifts 200kg even though he only weighs 80kg
Also i think it was the tour of britain where they said that in winter Greipel does a lot of upper body work in the gym.
Allan Peiper in his book says that Robbie Mccewen does a lot of weight training in the gym.
Has anyone got any ideas what exercises these guys do?
Ive seen Lance's training video's on youtube and i remember a piece on the tour back in 91 that showed lemonds home gym and he talked about doing heavy squats and leg presses."
I think you need to find better sources for your info. First you used a humorous advertisement as a source, and now you're using a post from another forum by some random dude on the internet. On top of that, your post isn't even relevant -- no one has claimed that pro cyclists don't train with weights or that weight training is not useful.
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Old 03-24-18, 08:39 AM
  #165  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
I have to ask, how did you set your power zones? Because unless you are very small and light, I really don't see neuromuscular being +255W. I'm not a particularly powerful rider (though I am fairly large) and 255 is in my Z3.
Strava uses power data to suggest an approximate FTP. I just went with that recommendation. I rode with the power meter gathering data for a few months, usual rides (some short, some long, varied terrain), and the modeled FTP value wasn't changing much. To be direct, I thought it was low, but what do I know?

Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
As to the other guy, that's not really what a TT practice breakdown should look like. That's a relatively spirited ride, but there should be a lot more zoot (Z4/Z5/Z6) if it is at all meant to look like a TT effort. Your 50 mile ride looks like a TT effort, and with that zone distribution-- if accurate-- you should have been completely wrecked afterward. You would have spent literally half of the time above threshold-- like an hour and 40 minutes. That would be exceptionally tough to do. I personally do not do TTs, and the notion of them is despicable, but I can make a decent effort every now and again.
My friend was training for the El Dorado Tuesday races, where the pace is usually around 25 mph average for about an hour. So, maybe not a TT in the usual sense, but that's what he called it. He's been riding with a power meter for a good number of years, so I'm guessing his zone distribution looked exactly as he wanted it to look. As for my ride, I came home, grabbed a bite, and napped for about 45 minutes. I was pretty tired. But, I am back on the bike for about six weeks only, after being off for about 4 months, so maybe that is part of it.

That is why I was wondering about the distribution. When I was riding, I was consciously making an effort to show some restraint (I have my Garmin displaying the zone on the main screen), but I was expecting to see a mode in Z4, because I was seeing a lot of Z4 on my Garmin during the ride. It's hard to imagine exercising more restraint, to achieve a distribution as you showed for endurance rides, however it seems I need to do just that.
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Old 03-24-18, 09:00 AM
  #166  
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It’s not restraint, it’s properly set zones. You at the very least need to perform a 20-minute FTP test. There is simply no need to rely on an estimated FTP when you have a PM right there ready to give you a proper one.

I’ll tell you right now— it won’t be fun.
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Old 03-24-18, 04:35 PM
  #167  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
It’s not restraint, it’s properly set zones. You at the very least need to perform a 20-minute FTP test. There is simply no need to rely on an estimated FTP when you have a PM right there ready to give you a proper one.

I’ll tell you right now— it won’t be fun.
How far is your Strava-estimated FTP from your 20-minute number, if I may ask?
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Old 03-24-18, 06:14 PM
  #168  
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Originally Posted by ZippyThePinhead View Post
How far is your Strava-estimated FTP from your 20-minute number, if I may ask?
Significantly. Strava bases their estimates off of patterning, basically— and I am very seldom making threshold power for extended periods of time during everyday rides. Last time I looked, Strava had my estimated FTP somewhere around 235W, and the result of my last 20 minute FTP was 290W.
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