Question on power
03-21-18, 10:01 AM
#101
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Not even sure you are on the big ring at that pedestrian speed. 
https://gearjunkie.com/mammoth-chainring-bicycle
dave
https://gearjunkie.com/mammoth-chainring-bicycle
dave
03-21-18, 10:02 AM
#102
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03-21-18, 10:22 AM
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Dave had to remind me of how big an impact AIR resistance has at speed before I was convinced just now. Besides, there's still the matter of whether the road is straight enough.
03-21-18, 10:47 AM
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My point is not that it's impossible, but that the steeper the downhill, the less likely there's high watts.
Taken to the logical extreme, the steepest hill would be vertical, so there's air resistance, but pedaling will not increase speed.
This would be like a bike in a trainer w/ no resistance- just the wheels spinning.
What's the highest wattage you can produce like that?
I guess that it's roughly like my low gear on rollers: ~50w.
Taken to the logical extreme, the steepest hill would be vertical, so there's air resistance, but pedaling will not increase speed.
This would be like a bike in a trainer w/ no resistance- just the wheels spinning.
What's the highest wattage you can produce like that?
I guess that it's roughly like my low gear on rollers: ~50w.
03-21-18, 11:04 AM
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That isn't how it works - gravity is NOT sufficient to "overcome all the resistance" at any speed. Aerodynamic drag (wind resistance) goes up as the square of the velocity. So putting out a constant 250 watts in a good tuck going down a long 10% grade, you can get close to 80 kph. Stop pedaling and you will slow down maybe 6 kph. Start putting out 250 watts and you will feel resistance in the pedals and you will speed up until you get back to that same roughly 80 kph and you will need to keep putting out that level of power or you will slow down again.
dave
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03-21-18, 11:36 AM
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This depends on your tuck. If you are talking about the same position that you use to put out 250w sure, but if you instead choose to sit on the top tube, grab the tops, level the feet, and coast I bet you could maintain the same speed on a 10% downhill grade. The pros do it all the time
dave
03-21-18, 11:49 AM
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This is BF, these same people will say average speed means nothing in their next breath.
Are people honestly trying to argue that speed is a better training metric than power? Do people really believe it is only a marketing stunt that Team Sky uses Power Meters?
The overall goal in cycling competitively is not a specific speed, it is a faster speed than your competitors. If I went out riding and considered speed as the very best metric I would only ride in tailwinds and start at the top of large hills, finishing my ride at the bottom. I would also actively chop out sections of my ride that would be considered warm up and cool down, because who would want that included in the average? Might as well show up to fast group rides and never pull too.
What I'm getting at is making "speed" a priority will actually hurt your training, who wants to climb a hill if you can't do that at 24mph? Who wants to ride when it's windy if a single gust can hurt your average?
Power Meters cut all of this out, with one of these it's super easy to get ridiculous results, you run an FTP test, take a canned plan from TP that fits your goals, and get out there to complete your structured workouts. A headwind makes life easy because you can hold high power and move slowly, having to stop less for traffic lights, being closer to home so you can grab more water, snacks, etc. Hills become fun because it is often times easier to hold high power going up them then on a flat. All of a sudden, with a power meter, you can quantify everything, the only reason not to ride would be a blizzard or lightning.
Even inside, you can take any dumb trainer and have a fantastic experience on Zwift or Trainerroad if your bike happens to be equipped with a power meter.
Honestly, the only downside to a power meter is it is not cheap.
The overall goal in cycling competitively is not a specific speed, it is a faster speed than your competitors. If I went out riding and considered speed as the very best metric I would only ride in tailwinds and start at the top of large hills, finishing my ride at the bottom. I would also actively chop out sections of my ride that would be considered warm up and cool down, because who would want that included in the average? Might as well show up to fast group rides and never pull too.
What I'm getting at is making "speed" a priority will actually hurt your training, who wants to climb a hill if you can't do that at 24mph? Who wants to ride when it's windy if a single gust can hurt your average?
Power Meters cut all of this out, with one of these it's super easy to get ridiculous results, you run an FTP test, take a canned plan from TP that fits your goals, and get out there to complete your structured workouts. A headwind makes life easy because you can hold high power and move slowly, having to stop less for traffic lights, being closer to home so you can grab more water, snacks, etc. Hills become fun because it is often times easier to hold high power going up them then on a flat. All of a sudden, with a power meter, you can quantify everything, the only reason not to ride would be a blizzard or lightning.
Even inside, you can take any dumb trainer and have a fantastic experience on Zwift or Trainerroad if your bike happens to be equipped with a power meter.
Honestly, the only downside to a power meter is it is not cheap.
03-21-18, 04:07 PM
#108
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I totally agree that is what some coaches say. I'm asking for a WT team coach, or rider. SKY is sponsored by Stages, so kinda does not count.
Taylor Finney is on record not using a PM. So there is that.
And I know some of the best junior TT riders (now pros, and not) didn't. And some did. It was not definitive.
It is a training measure, a number.
Eddy did 445W/hour in '76 - in a lab. He may have been doped then too, but he was not training with a PM.
Most pros have one. My kid has several. When it comes to training, or racing, it is not used. Subtle point, but train means they do effort based on what the power number says. In actual use it is record, a guide, like HR and speed.
Speed being the best measure. For training perceived effort is the best measure.
But hey, find me someone - WT level please. USA loves them. How is that working out?
Taylor Finney is on record not using a PM. So there is that.
And I know some of the best junior TT riders (now pros, and not) didn't. And some did. It was not definitive.
It is a training measure, a number.
Eddy did 445W/hour in '76 - in a lab. He may have been doped then too, but he was not training with a PM.
Most pros have one. My kid has several. When it comes to training, or racing, it is not used. Subtle point, but train means they do effort based on what the power number says. In actual use it is record, a guide, like HR and speed.
Speed being the best measure. For training perceived effort is the best measure.
But hey, find me someone - WT level please. USA loves them. How is that working out?
Were cyclists great without power meters? Yes of course. Is PE the best measure? Perhaps, but it is not infallible. PE decouples with duration pretty quickly as you get close to and above threshold. Ever done a 20 minute interval above threshold? The beginning is tough but manageable, the end feels like death. If you kept a constant perceived effort for all 20 minutes, you would simply be doing an effort with a constant decline in output. If anything, a power meter will help you hone your PE in.
I can tell you my N=1, a power meter changed the way I trained and I have no doubt it made me a stronger cyclist. Being able to accurately prescribe and execute intervals, track and manage training load over time for a proper peak, quantify progress, and objectively pace races (I am a triathlete so they are steady state races) have changed my performance as a cyclist. I firmly believe that any amateur that acquires a power meter and learns how to use it will become a better cyclist as a result. Can you achieve the same levels of fitness without one? Yes, but a power meter will make the process considerably easier to manage.
03-21-18, 05:05 PM
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Here are two TdF winners talking about putting out a max of <1,000W.
Here is my 15 yo kid about the same weight as Contador putting out 50% more than claimed above - 22W/kg with a then Sagan teammate (and Kona bike record setter in 2017) chasing. That KOM segment is about 100K attempts now. Other weights only kids can and have done similar.
03-21-18, 06:04 PM
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FWIW I think steady state events a PM is a better training device, vs using it to train for max (peak) speed and power.
The PM teaches you what you should not do / go over. Great for stage races when you need to race the next day. Great for triathlons where if you left a bit in the tank you can empty it on the runs.
In a TT, those holding to power may ask if they could you have gone harder. If they are changing venues ambient conditions change what power they can or should hold.
03-21-18, 06:15 PM
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Here are two TdF winners talking about putting out a max of <1,000W.
https://youtu.be/UzPq0hDdDhs
https://youtu.be/UzPq0hDdDhs
03-21-18, 07:29 PM
#112
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03-21-18, 08:16 PM
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Non omnino gravis
To address the notion of people not making +250w downhill, you're just looking in the wrong place if you're not finding them.
Nigel Ellsay, 2017 Redlands Bicycle Classic Time Trial Stage averaged 350W on the downhill portion of the out-and-back TT, which drops 350ft in 3.4 miles. He did average a paltry 284W on the steepest portion (Florida St,) which drops 171 feet in 0.5 miles... while doing 41mph. And that was only good for 53rd on the Strava segment.
The holder of the KOM (TJ Eisenhart) averaged 315W down Florida St.
Nigel Ellsay, 2017 Redlands Bicycle Classic Time Trial Stage averaged 350W on the downhill portion of the out-and-back TT, which drops 350ft in 3.4 miles. He did average a paltry 284W on the steepest portion (Florida St,) which drops 171 feet in 0.5 miles... while doing 41mph. And that was only good for 53rd on the Strava segment.
The holder of the KOM (TJ Eisenhart) averaged 315W down Florida St.
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03-21-18, 11:41 PM
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To address the notion of people not making +250w downhill, you're just looking in the wrong place if you're not finding them.
Nigel Ellsay, 2017 Redlands Bicycle Classic Time Trial Stage averaged 350W on the downhill portion of the out-and-back TT, which drops 350ft in 3.4 miles. He did average a paltry 284W on the steepest portion (Florida St,) which drops 171 feet in 0.5 miles... while doing 41mph. And that was only good for 53rd on the Strava segment.
The holder of the KOM (TJ Eisenhart) averaged 315W down Florida St.
Nigel Ellsay, 2017 Redlands Bicycle Classic Time Trial Stage averaged 350W on the downhill portion of the out-and-back TT, which drops 350ft in 3.4 miles. He did average a paltry 284W on the steepest portion (Florida St,) which drops 171 feet in 0.5 miles... while doing 41mph. And that was only good for 53rd on the Strava segment.
The holder of the KOM (TJ Eisenhart) averaged 315W down Florida St.
That's some horsepower. You could better say that he tied for 5th on the Strava segment.
03-22-18, 12:09 AM
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03-22-18, 12:12 AM
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03-22-18, 11:34 AM
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I'm pretty certain an Olympic gold medalist marathon runner can not keep up with the best high school and college milers - in a mile.
The teen miler is faster in the mile. I've seen similar in cycling.
They are different. TdF / WT racers are doing longer, more endurance based activities. It would not surprise me at all if their power was lower. If they stopped doing 5 hour races back to back and used weights (instead of PMs) and rest, I'm sure their speed and power would go up. But that is not their job.
Good link on what a pro did over just under 5 hours.
"As you can see almost every peak value was recorded within stage 1 or the 6.4km prologue. The only peak value set within stage 2 was a maximum peak power of the Tour so far, at 961 watts"
Janez Brajkovic’s
Average Watts: 196W
Max Watts: 873 W
Peak 1-minutes: 567 W (highest of the Tour to date)
Peak 6-minutes: 384 W
Peak 20-minutes: 376 W (highest of the Tour to date)
Peak 60-minute: 307 W (highest of the Tour to date)
Chris Anker Sorensen’s Max Watts: 961 W (stage 2)
Read more at https://www.velonews.com/2012/07/tour...qYAU51RrSZj.99
Last edited by Doge; 03-22-18 at 11:48 AM.
03-22-18, 12:57 PM
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I don't know.
I'm pretty certain an Olympic gold medalist marathon runner can not keep up with the best high school and college milers - in a mile.
The teen miler is faster in the mile. I've seen similar in cycling.
They are different. TdF / WT racers are doing longer, more endurance based activities. It would not surprise me at all if their power was lower. If they stopped doing 5 hour races back to back and used weights (instead of PMs) and rest, I'm sure their speed and power would go up. But that is not their job.
I'm pretty certain an Olympic gold medalist marathon runner can not keep up with the best high school and college milers - in a mile.
The teen miler is faster in the mile. I've seen similar in cycling.
They are different. TdF / WT racers are doing longer, more endurance based activities. It would not surprise me at all if their power was lower. If they stopped doing 5 hour races back to back and used weights (instead of PMs) and rest, I'm sure their speed and power would go up. But that is not their job.
Why do you assume that doing weights and training with a power meter are mutually exclusive?
03-22-18, 01:07 PM
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You train to perform. What you do to perform, may be very different than how you train.
The distances WT rides train for is typically not applicable for most USA riders, rec, or pro.
For training to be faster in the few hour riding zone, I have not seen where PMs beat weights.
Quoting someone about use in a race is not training. I was asking how are they used to make the rider faster.
Most of "us" are not discussing how we will be the fastest for 4 and 5 hour events, and especially not for when something else comes after the cycling event, such as a run, or another stage. I think PM are great for controlling effort in the event when it is needed (Stage Race, Tri before running), but they are still not being used for training.
03-22-18, 01:55 PM
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I don't think they are mutually exclusive.
You train to perform. What you do to perform, may be very different than how you train.
The distances WT rides train for is typically not applicable for most USA riders, rec, or pro.
For training to be faster in the few hour riding zone, I have not seen where PMs beat weights.
Quoting someone about use in a race is not training. I was asking how are they used to make the rider faster.
Most of "us" are not discussing how we will be the fastest for 4 and 5 hour events, and especially not for when something else comes after the cycling event, such as a run, or another stage. I think PM are great for controlling effort in the event when it is needed (Stage Race, Tri before running), but they are still not being used for training.
You train to perform. What you do to perform, may be very different than how you train.
The distances WT rides train for is typically not applicable for most USA riders, rec, or pro.
For training to be faster in the few hour riding zone, I have not seen where PMs beat weights.
Quoting someone about use in a race is not training. I was asking how are they used to make the rider faster.
Most of "us" are not discussing how we will be the fastest for 4 and 5 hour events, and especially not for when something else comes after the cycling event, such as a run, or another stage. I think PM are great for controlling effort in the event when it is needed (Stage Race, Tri before running), but they are still not being used for training.
03-22-18, 02:22 PM
#122
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They are different. TdF / WT racers are doing longer, more endurance based activities. It would not surprise me at all if their power was lower. If they stopped doing 5 hour races back to back and used weights (instead of PMs) and rest, I'm sure their speed and power would go up. But that is not their job.
Good link on what a pro did over just under 5 hours.
"As you can see almost every peak value was recorded within stage 1 or the 6.4km prologue. The only peak value set within stage 2 was a maximum peak power of the Tour so far, at 961 watts"
Janez Brajkovic’s
Average Watts: 196W
Max Watts: 873 W
Peak 1-minutes: 567 W (highest of the Tour to date)
Peak 6-minutes: 384 W
Peak 20-minutes: 376 W (highest of the Tour to date)
Peak 60-minute: 307 W (highest of the Tour to date)
Good link on what a pro did over just under 5 hours.
"As you can see almost every peak value was recorded within stage 1 or the 6.4km prologue. The only peak value set within stage 2 was a maximum peak power of the Tour so far, at 961 watts"
Janez Brajkovic’s
Average Watts: 196W
Max Watts: 873 W
Peak 1-minutes: 567 W (highest of the Tour to date)
Peak 6-minutes: 384 W
Peak 20-minutes: 376 W (highest of the Tour to date)
Peak 60-minute: 307 W (highest of the Tour to date)
03-22-18, 02:43 PM
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I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Who cares if a high school miler is faster than an olympic marathoner at short distance? It's irrelevant.
So, now you think that Contador, Schleck, and Brajkovic are all incapable of producing more than 900 W? And this is based on one humorous video and stats from 3 stages of the TdF ...
So, now you think that Contador, Schleck, and Brajkovic are all incapable of producing more than 900 W? And this is based on one humorous video and stats from 3 stages of the TdF ...
-Training (what you do to get fast) is different than the performance (Race, Fondo, just going fast).
-For BF like rides - 30min-3 hours, using weights is a better tool/time training investment than a PM is - for being faster.
-Max power is measured 1-5 sec. Not really where WT riders need to be concerned.
I expect many, particularly Contador, put out less max power than the 20 year old and 18 year old roadies that also got the Olympic Gold/Silver in the Omnium in 2012 or half a dozen USA teens. Change that to 20 min and I tend to favor the TdF pro. Change that to hours and days and there is no question.
