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First puncture on a tubeless tire

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Old 06-28-18, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope;20416373


"[i
Tubeless will NEVER become ubiquitous,[/i]" he says. Automobiles haven't had tubes in their tires in over 60 years. Why must the bicycle remain an anachronism?

Because bike and tire manufacturers cant seem to agree on one standard for road bikes that eliminate the faff and uncertainties. Cars puncture MUCH less than road bikes and still need a mechanic and special equipment to put on and inflate the tyre, much like tubeless road. If you want to compare to cars you need road bike tyres that are much more puncture proof and no one wants that, because of the associated weight and high rolling resistance. Once bike manufacturers agree on a standard that doesn't require a compressor or special boost pump to seat the tyre, Im sure tubeless will become more popular.
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Old 06-28-18, 07:57 AM
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tubeless tires dont work because some of his customers dont know that pneumatic tires are supposed to be re-aired.
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Old 06-28-18, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope
Do you just copy-paste that whole diatribe now? I've seen it enough times it's starting to feel like a well-worn episode of an almost forgotten sitcom.

I live in the goathead and bottle glass capital of the world. The roads are also terrible. On tubes, I was averaging a flat every 200 miles. That's a flat a week. Just for me. Before converting her to tubeless, my wife (who has far fewer opportunities to ride) was getting a flat every other ride.

I maintain 4 sets of tubeless wheels/tires, and use right around $25 in sealant per year. I will agree that if you don't suffer from puncture flats where you live, tubeless won't gain you much. But if you do, it's worth the time and effort.

"Tubeless will NEVER become ubiquitous," he says. Automobiles haven't had tubes in their tires in over 60 years. Why must the bicycle remain an anachronism?
Oh I thought this was the rational discussion of it. Didn't realize you guys treat tubeless like most people nowadays treat political discussions.

It will never become ubiquitous because of the vast number of actual customers in this industry. It doesn't fit or work for them. believe it or not the individuals on this forum represent a tiny subset of the overall industry and sales within the industry. The "enthusiasts" will continue to try any technology thrown at them and tubeless will never go away. It will never be on every tire ever sold on every bike. So it will never take over everything. That is what I am saying.

I don't "hate" the technology at all....I ride 1 wheel as tubeless and 1 as tubed most of the time. That being said - I have had more problems with the tubeless one than the tubed one. Just is what it is.

As for whomever said it's anecdotal....I'm sure your all the rage at cocktail parties. Anecdotal, sure, based on the following experience though: 30 years as a bike mechanic, 10 years as a wheel designer and builder, Owner of a bicycle shop, Running an actual race team with 75 licensed racers and 150 "club/enthusiast" members. Neutral Race Mechanic for more races than I can count. Pit mechanic for the US team during 2 World Cup races in 2017. Data compiler from pro racers running tubeless vs tubular in competition (check out the podcast).

......but yeah... anecdotal.

Come to my shop and look into the eyes of the vast majority of actual cyclists and riders who come in for a flat service and tell me that tubeless will be a great solution for them.

I get that you guys love tubeless more than your first born child. You can have it. If you are riding often and take care of your gear anyway then it will perform JUST AS WELL as a tubed system if you are anywhere outside of goathead country (or where the vast majority of the US population is). If you think it's better then your anecdotal experience with it will make up your own mind. That's not the point. The point is that for the vast majority of actual riders a tubed system still and will continue to make sense for the vastly foreseeable future.

As for me being against it - I sell tubeless wheels nearly daily. I have a high flow tubeless valve system in process. I have invested in the technology....but you have to know when it's appropriate.
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Old 06-28-18, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by redfooj
tubeless tires aren't the best choice of tire system because the vast majority of cycling customers don't even know they are supposed to air up tubed tires- let alone know that they have to add sealant and that the sealant will eventually dry out and rot away the tire.
Fixed that for you../...

...oh and it's not pneumatic tires. That's pretty un-informed. all of these tires are pneumatic. We are talking about clincher tires systems that run with innertubes or as tubeless - without innertubes. I'm starting to believe you're one of those rider with whom I would have to spend a half an hour explaining the difference between hook and bead, hookless clinchers, tubeless, tubular, Open tubulars, and tubeless tubulars... as a start.
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Old 06-30-18, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001
Fixed that for you../...

...oh and it's not pneumatic tires. That's pretty un-informed. all of these tires are pneumatic. We are talking about clincher tires systems that run with innertubes or as tubeless - without innertubes. I'm starting to believe you're one of those rider with whom I would have to spend a half an hour explaining the difference between hook and bead, hookless clinchers, tubeless, tubular, Open tubulars, and tubeless tubulars... as a start.
Im only recounting what you said. Because you have nice stories, and you tell it so well.

I particularly like the story you told about how professional bike racers don't even have a clue about what equipment they ride.

With this profile of clientele, you are in a good commercial position to capitalize on it, so congratulations.
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Old 06-30-18, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by redfooj
Im only recounting what you said. Because you have nice stories, and you tell it so well.

I particularly like the story you told about how professional bike racers don't even have a clue about what equipment they ride.

With this profile of clientele, you are in a good commercial position to capitalize on it, so congratulations.
Indeed. It turns out people that care more about gear than riding find forums and talk gear and there’s a whole other portion of the riding population that don’t really care about gear, know how it works, etc. they just ride it.

Turns out the same array of people people are represented in pros. About a month back - race ends - pro I know rolls up - “What happened? You were looking good going into the last couple of laps” “eh...I took some time off and my first time back on the bike in months was Joe Martin. I’ve only had like 3 races since then. I was good here but something was messed up on the bike. I went into the pits after my bike stopped dead - locked up- when I got out of the saddle on the last lap. Pit mechanic had no idea. Can you look at it for me?”

”wheel locked up? Guessing your lever is loose and moved down the bar when you got out of the saddle- stretching the cable and seizing the brake. Yup. There...good to go”

”thanks. I knew you’d figure it out. See you next week.”


I’ve sponsored Laura Van Gilder for years. She’s won more races than just about any other American ever. Has been riding Dura Ace 7800 for years. Refused to change. Why? Every time she changed there were problems. She travels to just about every race. Can tear down and pack a bike like nobody’s business and re-assemble with no problems. Still....shows up to a race and if there’s any question about how she feels about the bike she bee-lines to a mechanic she trusts. Doesn’t want the explanation. Understands a lot of it but just wants a mechanic she knows to look her in the eye and tell her it will be top notch for her race.

Also a little known fact but pertinent to this thread - she refuses to race on tubulars anymore as she doesn’t glue and doesn’t want to travel with glue. Can swap a clincher (tube) just like everyone else. I set her up on tubeless ready rims this year. Had no interest in doing it. Doesn’t make sense for as much as she travels (in her opinion).

But whatever. You guys can keep living in your made up world where somehow pros are the technical experts in the industry.

FWIW - I hope you guys understand that when we (companies in industry) sponsor a team we have to educate all of them on the company line. Train them. And then we have all sorts of clauses in our contracts that say they have to post, tag, etc ad nausiam about the product. They get torn up one side and down the other if they are ever caught being non-sponsor correct. Most actual pro teams understand that’s almost as important to more important than actual race results because sponsors pay for the program and sponsors outside of the actual industry are few and far between at any level other than title name or lowest level.
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Old 06-30-18, 08:58 PM
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Old 07-02-18, 06:16 AM
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such vitriol! I ride tubeless and I love maintaining my own bikes, to a flaw, and learn something new almost daily.

If you don't want, like, or understand tubeless don't ride them. I personally enjoy and understand tubeless and work to perfect my setups and have had about the same problems with tubes as with tubeless.

I think as the industry moves forward with tubeless technology, as it has in the last decade, it will become even better.

opinions are like elbows, almost everyone has one or two. one right and the other one.
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Old 07-03-18, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001
But whatever. You guys can keep living in your made up world where somehow pros are the technical experts in the industry.
They're not. They're experts in riding.

How does that fit in your made up world where a guy who lubes bike chains knows more about the performance and response of equipment than someone who spends 1000 hours a year on top of them.

Fernando Alonso doesn't know how to tweak the aerodynamic balance of his car but he probably can tell when its appropriate for the track.
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Old 06-16-20, 11:15 PM
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Well, I get that this thread is two years old now and the principals have all likely become experts in the topic and have moved on. I'm sharing only because I suspect that other, less familiar folk, might be looking for input.

I got back into cycling a few years ago after a long layoff from cycling in college and my 20s. I did about 3500 miles on clinchers (tubes) on tubeless rims. My rationale hanging with tubes was simple (if undermotivated); I know how to change a tube. I know what happens when I get a flat. I knew that tubeless was "better" but I wasnt all that interested in working my way up the learning curve. I just wanted to ride the bike. That worked fine. And, frankly, I was right; there is a learning curve with tubeless and I wasnt being silly not wanting to take it on.

But I got over my lack of motivation and switched to tubeless on both my 700c & 650b (gravel) wheels as well as my "travel" bike. Here's a few things I learned along the way;
* tubeless is easier assuming you dont have a catastrophic failure of some sort (then it's about the same; hike-a-bike/uber.)
* I carry a tube anyway. And I've used them.
* I carry 2oz of goop (because it all blew out once & I didnt have any. Would have been faster to put more goop in than put a tube in). I have a 2oz little plastic jar with a needle nose lid & cap. . . that I wrap in gorilla tape to keep it from leaking. (Here's what i got on amazon; TrendBox 2oz / 60ml Plastic Bottle Pointed Mouth Top Cap for Essential Oils, Liquid - 6 Pack"
* I carry a "Kool Stop Tire Bead Jack." In fact, I carry one I cut down to fit in my saddlebag. Tubeless rims are deeper. Getting tires on/off can be a bear. Or impossible. This thing is a life saver.
* I carry a core remover tool. In fact, it's the presta valve cover for my muc off stems. Gotta take the core out of the stem to put more goop in if you dont want to pull the tire partially off
* When you pump your tires, have the stem at 3 or 9 o'clock. Keeps the goop out of them. Truthfully though, my experience is the goop gets in them and it makes them harder to inflate. Like a lot harder. Happens. Removing, cleaning, replacing, reseating tire, etc is a pain in the ass but at some point you'll wonder why you're not getting air to go into the damn tire. I dont hear many people talk about this but my bike-rabbi told me I wasnt just creating my own problems . . . Happens.
* Replace the tires. I average about 100 miles / week. So, not hero worthy but I throw my leg over 3-5 days a week. If I get two punctures in a one week period, I replace the tire if it's more than two or three months old. If I get 3 or more in a couple week period, I swap the tire regardless. I've only done this twice . . . and I was glad each time. I'm not super enthusiastic about doing extensive root cause analysis work on why a tire keeps failing. Let it go. Move on. (I also dont believe in patching tubes. I'm not 12 anymore & I have finite faith in my ability to do a trust worthy repair on a tube that has demonstrated that its fallible. . . let it go. move on. I look for other ways to reduce my carbon footprint . . . like riding my bike.) I really like the Conti GP5000s (I've run both tubeless and clinchers.) I had Schwalbe Pro One (still running them on my gravel wheels). Didn't like them as much. Had more flats. Could be I was in a period where I wasnt watching where I was going. But before and after I've run the Contis and they're pretty bomb proof for me. . . but you still gotta watch where you're going i think.
* If you get a puncture, you'll lose air before it self seals. I was riding once in Las Vegas on a fairly steep, downhill bike trail (which was super fun) and the tire started to roll off the rim and I ended up rolling into the desert into a bunch of drainage rock. Tire got soft. It had punctured & resealed and I didnt notice. So, you know, gotta pay attention
* Getting the bead to reseat is a thing. If you struggle with this, you're not a dipswitch (well, not because the bead wont reset anyway). If I'm out on the road, I try for a minute or two then . . . let it go. move on. Use the tube. At home, I learned a cool trick where I take a camping compression strap (~1-2" wide x ~85" long) and buckle it around the entire circumference of the tire (uninflated.) Just tight enough to stay on. Then I inflate the tire. You can hear the bead seat! Kinda pops. Release some air so you can pull off the strap, then inflate the tire and . . . boom! Bobs your uncle! I have a compressor and shop inflator at home (which is a total, indefensible indulgence but it's wicked awesome!) but I'm 99% positive this would work fine with a floor pump. On YouTube, search for "How to inflate and seat a tubeless tyre that will not hold air". Great video. (and I cant yet post links)

So, that's about the sum total of my "wealth of ignorance" on the topic.I like the fact that I can run a little lower pressure in the tires. Word is that doesnt impact rolling resistance. I dont know if that's actually true but it's more comfortable; particularly on gravel. I also REALLY like the self healing bit. A lot actually.

Here's what I dont know on the tubeless front (as I kick off on a couple hundred mile gravel tour in a few weeks.)
* I ordered a plug set to carry with me. (KOM Cycling Tubeless Tire Repair Kit)
* I bought some 1/32" polycarbonate. I'm gonna cut a few pieces to carry with in case I get a slash or a sidewall gash. My plan, if I get a material tire issue, is to pour the goop out of the tire, dry it out with a rag (really, I gotta pack/haul a rag?!?! I see a handkerchief making it's debut on my packing list) then super glue the thing over the hole . . . then use a tube.

The ride is a couple hundred miles in rural central oregon. Unsupported & solo but not camping (small hotels.) Doubt there will be a bike shop for 100 miles.

I'd be grateful for any input about stuff that I'm not thinking about in my "emergency tire management plan"

thanks!
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Old 11-03-22, 09:21 AM
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I well know this is an old thread & was last resurrected 2 years ago. Got here via searching for "glitter" I think. Had my 1st road tubeless fail yesterday. Orange Seal Endurance failed to seal sidewall punture & I was wondering if adding some glitter would possibly improve it's effectiveness. I typed a new post about this last night but my Ipad ate it & I decided not to bother w' another effort.

Regardless, I enjoyed reading through the whole thread. Lots of good & useful info in here.

Mildly curious if bike shop owner Psimet2001 has changed his tune a bit on road tubeless now that we're 4 years down the road on his last comment in this thread. I'd imagine/guess he's seeing more folks embrace tubeless now than back then....

Last edited by biglmbass; 11-03-22 at 09:26 AM. Reason: added detail
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Old 11-03-22, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by biglmbass
I well know this is an old thread & was last resurrected 2 years ago. Got here via searching for "glitter" I think. Had my 1st road tubeless fail yesterday. Orange Seal Endurance failed to seal sidewall punture & I was wondering if adding some glitter would possibly improve it's effectiveness. I typed a new post about this last night but my Ipad ate it & I decided not to bother w' another effort.

Regardless, I enjoyed reading through the whole thread. Lots of good & useful info in here.

Mildly curious if bike shop owner Psimet2001 has changed his tune a bit on road tubeless now that we're 4 years down the road on his last comment in this thread. I'd imagine/guess he's seeing more folks embrace tubeless now than back then....
How big of a puncture and when was the OSE put in the tire?

I've posted about it before, somewhere, but my experience is that OSE can look viable, in tire, longer than it really is. I forget how long mine had been in there, it was probably 5 or 6 months, but the sealant still looked right and the volume was fine. In any event, I took a small puncture, maybe 3mm, that should have been no problem for the sealant... but it wouldn't seal and I had to throw in a tube for the ride home. When I got home, I took out the tube, re-seated the tire, put in a fresh dose of sealant and it sealed in literally less than a second, as I would have expected from previous experience.

My hunch is that the majority of the particulate in the sealant was stuck to the inside of the tire carcass and no longer free-flowing, but I don't know for sure. Regardless, since the puncture was well within the sealant's effective range, the solution was just a fresh dose.
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Old 11-03-22, 11:12 AM
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Short answer is the front tire got re-mounted & new sealant added 4 weeks ago. (2 ounces worth)

I first set-up this bike & tire/wheel combo in April of this year & the tires never really held a good amount of air for more than 24 hours. Would have to top off air before every ride (something I do anyway typically) but these would be half flat the day after a ride. Knew something wasn't right so finally tore into it a month ago. I completly removed front tire & removed all old sealant & remounted it. Was surprised to find most of sealant was dried up. Bike is a spare & still getting fit sorted out & it lives indoors. F& R got 2 ounces of OSE each. That seemed to fix them up proper & now they hold air well overnight & beyond.

I've only got 570 miles on this tire/wheel setup, so hope I can fix the front tire puncture I suffered last night. I actually think it was two punctures, but by the time I walked the bike approx 200 yards to the brewery to look at it one puncture had sealed. Was late a'noon in fading light & counld not see the pucture enough to plug it. Even inside the brewery under less than ideal indoor lights could not see puncture well at all. Found it & could hold finger over it but it would not seal. Spun tire to ground, shook bike around, spun wheel, rocked bike side to side, held bike sideways trying to get it to seal. No luck. Used up two C02 catridges trying to air it up. It keep peeing out sealant. Got it slightly less than half inflated & might could have made it the 3 miles home in the dark, but didn't want to risk damage to carbon wheel. Decided instead to have a few beers and call a buddy to pick me up.

What I didn't do was take front wheel off the bike. Might have made a difference holding wheel/tire fully horizontal trying to get it to seal

Haven't had time to look closely at it today. Will update thread later
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Old 11-03-22, 12:00 PM
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Pumped it up to 60 psi & it held air for about 30 seconds . My gut feeling is the best fix is to patch it from the inside. Almost looks like something sharp dragged the length of sidewall there too. The tire also has an abrasion on the other side that looks bad but is otherwise fine & doesn't leak. Found it when I remounted the front 4 weeks ago.

Want to fix this, & will attempt to but am halfway leaning towards just keeping it as a spare tire & putting on a new one now. Thoughts??

New puncture

New puncture close-up

Abrasion discovered 4 weeks back

Last edited by biglmbass; 11-03-22 at 12:18 PM. Reason: punctuation
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Old 11-03-22, 03:44 PM
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I would probably throw it away with damage like that on the sidewall construction. But hard to tell from photos. For me anything goes on the tread, just plug any holes and go, but I don't like riding tyres with gashed sidewalls.
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