Road Cycling ďIt is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.Ē -- Ernest Hemingway

Not-so-friendly ride

Old 07-02-18, 11:14 AM
  #176  
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Originally Posted by chicagogal View Post
I was invited by a few friends...f (there were only four people in the group)
If they were nice people.... the group would have been larger.
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Old 07-02-18, 11:53 AM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by chicagogal View Post
With all due respect, the joke is not on me. You are absolutely wrong. A B-ride will not be a training ride for a racer, and it won't be an every week thing, but I have plenty of friends who race bikes (and even win mens pro/1/2 races) and choose to do the B-ride a few times a month. They do it for recovery, to get in some extra miles, and/or to serve in a mentorship capacity for developing riders.
Same experience, but surprisingly some just enjoy hanging out with friends and riding bikes.
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Old 07-02-18, 04:19 PM
  #178  
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Originally Posted by Heathpack View Post
My observation that most men are clueless about the magnitude of the physiologic difference between men & women was intended to explain the behavior of the typical group ride.
Most men whoíve played just about any sport with women, or wrestled with their girlfriend, or grew up with a sister completely and 100% know thereís a huge difference, physiologically, between men and women.

It only gets muddled by the people who dont participate in sport or are half wits when it comes to male/female athletic performance observation.

No, most men know about the gap.
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Old 07-02-18, 04:28 PM
  #179  
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Originally Posted by tagaproject6 View Post
Your friends are awful...find new ones. But then again, humans are awful. Get a dog.
The dog will just get in the way. It certainly doesn't follow you around cleaning your crap up, so why would you want to do that for it? Plus, why put something in your life that you have to worry about getting home from long rides or traveling just so you can follow it around to pick up its crap? Sounds kind of illogical to me.

If you "have" to have friends, +1 for finding new ones.
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Old 07-02-18, 04:41 PM
  #180  
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Originally Posted by aplcr0331 View Post


Most men who’ve played just about any sport with women, or wrestled with their girlfriend, or grew up with a sister completely and 100% know there’s a huge difference, physiologically, between men and women.

It only gets muddled by the people who dont participate in sport or are half wits when it comes to male/female athletic performance observation.

No, most men know about the gap.
FWIW there is a lady I ride with who can drop the majority of men riders on this forum. Top female athletes can crush most men at any sport. Are you willing to get into a cage and fight a professional lightweight woman figher? My guess is not. Can you beat one in the 100 yd dash. She would dust you. Can you beat a top woman tennis player or golfer? Wouldn't be close.
There are some extremely talented woman athletes out there. Yes men are stronger 'generally'. But a top woman athlete even at the amateur level can beat 90% of all men at everything.
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Old 07-02-18, 05:02 PM
  #181  
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
FWIW there is a lady I ride with who can drop the majority of men riders on this forum. Top female athletes can crush most men at any sport. Are you willing to get into a cage and fight a professional lightweight woman figher? My guess is not. Can you beat one in the 100 yd dash. She would dust you. Can you beat a top woman tennis player or golfer? Wouldn't be close.
There are some extremely talented woman athletes out there. Yes men are stronger 'generally'. But a top woman athlete even at the amateur level can beat 90% of all men at everything.
Not sure what your point is here. Men and Women's athletic capabilities follow a normal distribution for just about any metric you care to look at. The mean for Women in any strength related sport is significantly lower than the mean for men. Most people recognize this at an early age. Of course there are outliers that go against the trend but that wasn't the point being made.
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Old 07-02-18, 05:17 PM
  #182  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
Not sure what your point is here. Men and Women's athletic capabilities follow a normal distribution for just about any metric you care to look at. The mean for Women in any strength related sport is significantly lower than the mean for men. Most people recognize this at an early age. Of course there are outliers that go against the trend but that wasn't the point being made.
My response is...you need to compete in more sports. I grew up playing everything. At the state championship level if you are an average male that plays a given sport, you are going to get beat. If you competed at this level you would realize this. I am all for male power...lol. But woman can be highly skilled to compensate for lack of nth degree strength. The strongest woman in the US likely have twice your strength. Just a guess...and my strength as well. In cycling, I may even put out more watts than the lady who is well known in my town to crush men's soul...strong riding men's souls. She rides incredibly aero in addition to being very strong. She is also very light compared to most men. Power to weight and low aero profile. If you get in the arena and compete...I grew up competitive swimming for example, you will come away with respect for how good top amateur and pro level woman are compared to probably 95% of the male population.
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Old 07-02-18, 05:25 PM
  #183  
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
My response is...you need to compete in more sports. I grew up playing everything. At the state championship level if you are an average male that plays a given sport, you are going to get beat. If you competed at this level you would realize this. I am all for male power...lol. But woman can be highly skilled to compensate for lack of nth degree strength. The strongest woman in the US likely have twice your strength. Just a guess...and my strength as well. In cycling, I may even put out more watts than the lady who is well known in my town to crush men's soul...strong riding men's souls. She rides incredibly aero in addition to being very strong. She is also very light compared to most men. Power to weight and low aero profile. If you get in the arena and compete...I grew up competitive swimming for example, you will come away with respect for how good top amateur and pro level woman are compared to probably 95% of the male population.
Do you understand what a 'normal' distribution is? The women you're talking about are outliers in the tails of the distribution.
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Old 07-02-18, 05:41 PM
  #184  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
Do you understand what a 'normal' distribution is? The women you're talking about are outliers in the tails of the distribution.
Lol...yes..and other non ****geneous distributions.

From the following article:
https://www.livestrong.com/article/3...een-men-women/

The gender gap in athletic performance, as shown in records from Olympic competition, has remained stable since 1983. The mean difference has been about 10 percent between men and women for all events. The mean gap is 10.7 percent for running, 8.9 percent for swimming and 17.5 percent for jumping. When performances improve, the improvements are proportional for each gender. Still, in sports such as running, a woman who is fit and well-trained can outperform a man who is not. In shooting and equestrian competition, where physical balance and mental concentration are essential, women can compete on a par with men.

So 10% again among speed, endurance and strength sports. But with some sports like cycling, this maybe less...or not...because a woman can ride more aero and climb better because she is lighter. Also slightly less in swimming due to the buoyancy and musculature difference between men and woman. I have been around some pretty amazing woman swimmers who can beat 99% of any swimmer you know that has competed.

Now, 10% in the amateur world isn't a wide swath. You probably know other guys for example that are this much stronger and weaker than you out on the road for say a delta of 20% for general difference per gender. There is a lot of overlap in other words if you get the same size population together.

That means a strong woman cyclist will beat an average man on the bike. Not uncommon if you have ridden with strong woman cyclists...or pick another sport to compete against them at.

I believe what makes many men egotistical about their cycling prowess, is they haven't spent much time riding with strong female riders because their circle of riding is mostly male. Also your so called normal distribution is skewed because more men compete in sport compared to woman...this statistic changing a bit more with time.

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Old 07-02-18, 05:42 PM
  #185  
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Originally Posted by COBikeLover View Post
The dog will just get in the way. It certainly doesn't follow you around cleaning your crap up, so why would you want to do that for it? Plus, why put something in your life that you have to worry about getting home from long rides or traveling just so you can follow it around to pick up its crap? Sounds kind of illogical to me.

If you "have" to have friends, +1 for finding new ones.
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Old 07-02-18, 05:43 PM
  #186  
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
But a top woman athlete even at the amateur level can beat 90% of all men at everything.
This is so wrong as to be comical. Or a troll.

Good lord.



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Old 07-02-18, 05:47 PM
  #187  
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Old 07-02-18, 05:52 PM
  #188  
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Originally Posted by aplcr0331 View Post


This is so wrong as to be comical. Or a troll.

Good lord.







I believe you took it wrong. I didn't mean if a pro or top woman can beat you at something she can beat you at everything. I meant the same applies to any athletic endeavor or at least most. Let's take you for example. How many woman do you believe are in the US that can beat you at anything? Probably thousands...lol. Oh, we can throw in weight lifting, arm wrestling, cage fighting, bowling, badminton and crocket.


Last edited by Campag4life; 07-02-18 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 07-02-18, 06:28 PM
  #189  
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
I believe you took it wrong. I didn't mean if a pro or top woman can beat you at something she can beat you at everything. I meant the same applies to any athletic endeavor or at least most. Let's take you for example. How many woman do you believe are in the US that can beat you at anything? Probably thousands...lol. Oh, we can throw in weight lifting, arm wrestling, cage fighting, bowling, badminton and crocket.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AHRSFLduuw
Itís not about me. There are women that are better than me at everything I do. Better at cycling, basketball, skateboarding, skiing, Judo every sport or activity that I do. But Iím significantly better than the vast majority of all women at all of those things.

When I was in college me and 2 friends played 3-on-3 with PAC-10(at the time) female b-ball starters. We were mediocre at best high school players and we beat them handily in every game. We were gracious and so were they. But the games werenít close. High school boys soccer teams routinely and easily beat the USA womenís soccer team.

Im an average guy. Take an average woman with the same amount of experience, training and time as me in those pursuits? Iíd kill them and it wouldnít be close.

Your inability to understand math and normal distributions, a denial of basic biological differences, coupled with your ďcoming to the rescue, maí fair ladyĒ white knighting cloud your judgement.

Iím not the best at anything. Iím not the worst at anything. Again itís not about me.

OP says men donít understand the physiological differences between men and women and I insist that most men do.

Clearly youíre one that doesnít.

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Old 07-02-18, 07:30 PM
  #190  
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Actually, I don't group ride and don't have any real value to add so no need for me to chime in.

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Old 07-02-18, 07:32 PM
  #191  
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
That means a strong woman cyclist will beat an average man on the bike. Not uncommon if you have ridden with strong woman cyclists...or pick another sport to compete against them at.

I believe what makes many men egotistical about their cycling prowess, is they haven't spent much time riding with strong female riders because their circle of riding is mostly male. Also your so called normal distribution is skewed because more men compete in sport compared to woman...this statistic changing a bit more with time.
There aren't many female cyclists period. Take a look at the Strava results for any decent length hill climb and you'll quickly see the difference in power. I'm a 58 yr old, avg cyclist and there are 18 (out of 940) women faster than me on a popular local climb. There are 584 (out of 5787) men ahead of me. I don't think those results are unique to our area. There are plenty of Cat 3 and below men who are faster than the domestic pro women at the top of the leaderboard.

Whether the normalized distribution for men and women is skewed by participation is debatable. It's quite possible the women that do ride are better than average women. Hard to say.
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Old 07-02-18, 07:41 PM
  #192  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
Take a look at the Strava results for any decent length hill climb and you'll quickly see the difference in power. I'm a 58 yr old, avg cyclist and there are 18 (out of 940) women faster than me on a popular local climb. There are 584 (out of 5787) men ahead of me.
There are more than that, they just don't use strava because they know it will make guys like us cry.
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Old 07-02-18, 08:04 PM
  #193  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
There are plenty of Cat 3 and below men who are faster than the domestic pro women at the top of the leaderboard.
Exactly. There's a reason women can race two categories down in the men (A cat 1 woman can race cat 3 men), and very few actually do it because they get dropped. It's a rare woman that can even hang with an elite men's field (I can think of just one that tried and managed to finish back of the pack).. There's just too massive of a power difference, and the racing is simply too different and aggressive.. I've ridden with some very talented women and it's just night and day compared to even a mediocre cat 2 man.
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Old 07-02-18, 10:28 PM
  #194  
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Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
I beg your pardon then. I have a lot of racer friends I ride with who would never do a B level ride. In fact, I can't remember the last time, I did a B level group ride.
Sorry. Our experience is quite different.
hmm... I race, and Iíve got a ton of friends that race and are what youíd call a ďtrue cat1/ proĒ and will do the B ride. Itís nice leasurely recovery
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Old 07-02-18, 10:42 PM
  #195  
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When I was involved in racing, I rode on a coached team. Each ride had parameters set out at the beginning. For example, the climbers were told to go full gas on the climbs and then go back down and ride up with the rest of the group. We always pretty much got to the top together that way and the climbers still got their work in. The coach would ride along on a motorcycle with a roller in the back. If someone had to stop to remove a coat or something, he would pace them back so the whole group didnít have to stop. He also didnít not tolerate riders who would not stick to the training goals for that day. It made for very satisfying group rides because you always knew what to expect.
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Old 07-02-18, 10:43 PM
  #196  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Exactly. There's a reason women can race two categories down in the men (A cat 1 woman can race cat 3 men), and very few actually do it because they get dropped. It's a rare woman that can even hang with an elite men's field (I can think of just one that tried and managed to finish back of the pack).. There's just too massive of a power difference, and the racing is simply too different and aggressive.. I've ridden with some very talented women and it's just night and day compared to even a mediocre cat 2 man.
And this is *exactly* my point. Your typical male cyclist is pretty clueless about the magnitude of the difference between men and women on a bike.

If I, as a woman, fully recognize this, the assumption is that Iím doing it wrong, or Iím talentless, or in need of advising, or disloyal to my sex, or Iím not working hard enough. As opposed to I know fully that of which I speak.

Its not a ďproblemĒ. Women racing against women is plenty compelling. Women riding with women works too. Or women riding with select male friends. But for 99% of women, attempting the fast race group ride with a bunch of higher category racing men just doesnít work. And for 90% of women, even a fast paced group ride comprised mostly of men does not work unless the men are committed to keeping the group together and they understand the magnitude of the physiologic difference between men and women.

But that understanding is uncommon, most men donít give it much thought. Plus it makes people feel good to be faster than someone else, the last thing you want to recognize is that when weíre talking men v women, itís something you were born with, not something you earned through any particular merit.
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Old 07-03-18, 05:14 AM
  #197  
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OK, I know this is diverging from the original question about how wrong it is to be dropped and abandoned on a group ride, but I have to ask, what with the "vast physiological difference" between men and women, why shouldn't a Cat 4 or 5 man be disappointed in himself, and motivated to do better when he gets "chicked?" Nobody is insulting anyone who doesn't want to be insulted.

But back to the original situation (kind of)... As much as we may recognize this physiological difference in principal, how well do we understand it's extent and significance? If some group of men see themselves as average and recognize some woman as a strong rider, it shouldn't come as a surprise if they think that their gap has been closed up, especially if they've finished more than leisurely rides together in the past. They probably thought she could keep up. It didn't work out. Sure, since it was a group ride, they might have seen what was happening and maybe stopped for a moment to come to an agreement on how to continue and finish the ride.

That's the thing, and the original cause for concern really has nothing to do with fitness or ability or cycling - it's about agreements. If it's a planned group ride, it's an agreement. When people find themselves having trouble keeping up, it's polite for them to say something to let the others go on ahead. But if they are unceremoniously dropped and abandoned, they don't get a chance to make the offer or participate in a new agreement to ride together or separately. With planned rides, abandoning a participant is kind of like theft - he or she had a group ride, but the others took it away without asking.
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Old 07-03-18, 05:32 AM
  #198  
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Originally Posted by Heathpack View Post


And this is *exactly* my point. Your typical male cyclist is pretty clueless about the magnitude of the difference between men and women on a bike.

If I, as a woman, fully recognize this, the assumption is that I’m doing it wrong, or I’m talentless, or in need of advising, or disloyal to my sex, or I’m not working hard enough. As opposed to I know fully that of which I speak.

Its not a “problem”. Women racing against women is plenty compelling. Women riding with women works too. Or women riding with select male friends. But for 99% of women, attempting the fast race group ride with a bunch of higher category racing men just doesn’t work. And for 90% of women, even a fast paced group ride comprised mostly of men does not work unless the men are committed to keeping the group together and they understand the magnitude of the physiologic difference between men and women.

But that understanding is uncommon, most men don’t give it much thought. Plus it makes people feel good to be faster than someone else, the last thing you want to recognize is that when we’re talking men v women, it’s something you were born with, not something you earned through any particular merit.
But the point many of the guys on here are making is that we do know this.

You keep saying the typical male doesn't. Yet save for one person who doesn't get hardly anything, everyone else on here completely gets it. No one is arguing with you.
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Old 07-03-18, 05:36 AM
  #199  
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Originally Posted by kbarch View Post

But back to the original situation (kind of)... As much as we may recognize this physiological difference in principal, how well do we understand it's extent and significance?

That's the thing, and the original cause for concern really has nothing to do with fitness or ability or cycling - it's about agreements. If it's a planned group ride, it's an agreement. When people find themselves having trouble keeping up, it's polite for them to say something to let the others go on ahead. But if they are unceremoniously dropped and abandoned, they don't get a chance to make the offer or participate in a new agreement to ride together or separately. With planned rides, abandoning a participant is kind of like theft - he or she had a group ride, but the others took it away without asking.
This seems to be the bigger issue in general (outside of the husband-wife dynamic of this specific instance).
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Old 07-03-18, 05:49 AM
  #200  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
But the point many of the guys on here are making is that we do know this.

You keep saying the typical male doesn't. Yet save for one person who doesn't get hardly anything, everyone else on here completely gets it. No one is arguing with you.
Exactly. The folks I ride with all know that it's a special woman rider who can hang with the "A" group - special doesn't mean nonexistent, just rare. If a woman rides with us, we don't try to make her feel bad and specifically try to drop her. Quite the opposite actually. Then if she completes the ride with the group, she gets tons of congrats.
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