Aero Frame Real World Testing
#27
Senior Member
I wonder given the advances in CFD, if bike designers have moved to using CFD as the primary design tool with testing either in the wind tunnel or field used primarily to validate the CFD results rather than the designs themselves. I know that's where we're moving in my field.
#28
- Soli Deo Gloria -
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 14,779
Bikes: 2018 Rodriguez Custom Fixed Gear, 2017 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2015 Bianchi Pista, 2002 Fuji Robaix
Mentioned: 235 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6844 Post(s)
Liked 736 Times
in
469 Posts
TimothyH, I know all sorts of data exists for wind tunnel testing, however as learned from racing auto sports, the wind tunnel does not always accurately translate to the road environment. I am interested in timed tests on the road where there are hills, valleys, cross winds, etc. Very curious as to the efficiency level of these frames when put to the test.
It has a decent section on aerodynamics, especially as it pertains to individual components; round vs bladed spokes for example.
I think the lack of published data acquired outside of a lab environment simply reflects the relative difficulty of measuring things in the field. Let us know what you find.
-Tim-
#29
Perceptual Dullard
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,421
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 919 Post(s)
Liked 1,156 Times
in
494 Posts
I wonder given the advances in CFD, if bike designers have moved to using CFD as the primary design tool with testing either in the wind tunnel or field used primarily to validate the CFD results rather than the designs themselves. I know that's where we're moving in my field.
#30
Senior Member
That's cuz you don't appear to know what the big manufacturers (like Specialized, Trek, Cervelo, Cannondale, etc.) actually do. They use all three of CFD, wind tunnels, and field testing.
You also don't appear to be familiar with the implications of the Central Limit Theorem.
You also don't appear to be familiar with the implications of the Central Limit Theorem.
Pretty much, though they had to validate the CFD models first (usually by tunnel testing). Now that the CFD models are more mature, they mostly use them for primary design cuz it's quicker than building a physical model (or physical scale model) for testing. Eventually, however, they take completed models into the tunnel and on the road. One example of real-world testing I'm peripherally familiar with is the left-side drive on the US Olympic track bikes for the 2016 Olympics, and the testing we did for the 2012 and 2016 Olympics on the team pursuit -- there weren't tunnels large enough for the entire pursuit teams so the bikes/riders were instrumented and tested on the velodrome. That was a tricky optimization problem, but pretty cool.
#31
Perceptual Dullard
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,421
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 919 Post(s)
Liked 1,156 Times
in
494 Posts
Except 1) you admitted you hadn't read my presentation, and 2) you brought up the +/- 2% error in instantaneous power measurement as if it were dispositive (hint: I cover why it's less important than you think in that presentation). So while I may not know the amount of stuff you're not familiar with, I certainly know enough about the stuff you're not familiar with to know that you have opinions that are not backed by knowledge.
#33
Senior Member
Thread Starter
"but don't you think lab testing would be more helpful than real world? How could you possibly isolate just aerodynamics in a meaningful way for testing on a moving bike outside a wind tunnel? I have a feeling the margin for error introduced by any number of factors would be greater even than the aero differences you're trying to test. You would never know how 'real' any result is. "
I think what I am after is how meaningful are aero dynamics of a frame when put to the test and all the elements of riding the road are incorporated. It is assumed it makes a difference, however it has not been proven outside of a laboratory environment. I know aero wheels make a difference as we comparison tested them over several time trials on the same course with similar weather conditions. Results were consistently huge. If it can be done with wheels, it can be done with a frame. Timed results will be small so It might be difficult to find consistency.
I think what I am after is how meaningful are aero dynamics of a frame when put to the test and all the elements of riding the road are incorporated. It is assumed it makes a difference, however it has not been proven outside of a laboratory environment. I know aero wheels make a difference as we comparison tested them over several time trials on the same course with similar weather conditions. Results were consistently huge. If it can be done with wheels, it can be done with a frame. Timed results will be small so It might be difficult to find consistency.
#34
Perceptual Dullard
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,421
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 919 Post(s)
Liked 1,156 Times
in
494 Posts
I think what I am after is how meaningful are aero dynamics of a frame when put to the test and all the elements of riding the road are incorporated. It is assumed it makes a difference, however it has not been proven outside of a laboratory environment. I know aero wheels make a difference as we comparison tested them over several time trials on the same course with similar weather conditions. Results were consistently huge. If it can be done with wheels, it can be done with a frame. Timed results will be small so It might be difficult to find consistency.
The bottom line is that you don't often hear about "real-world tests" not because they're not done, but because the results you get from the field and wind tunnel tests tend to validate each other.
That said, if you're interested in total drag (as you should be) as opposed just to aero drag, you have to take into account rolling resistance, which you can't do in a wind tunnel. In a wind tunnel you only measure aero drag (obviously) so, for example, narrow tires always do better than wider tires. However, in field tests we can look at total drag on varying surfaces, and that's when you can determine that there are instances where you can trade off some aero drag for better rolling drag and end up lowering total drag. I've done that for a couple of the recent world hour record attempts, and for some road race championships. As mentioned above, I've done a little bit of work with Olympic pursuit teams. That worked well, and In another Olympic test, in the run-up to the 2016 Olympics, the Swiss MTB team tested various tires at various pressures using my method, and it worked out for Nino Schurter.
Last edited by RChung; 07-11-18 at 03:06 AM.
#35
Senior Member
Thread Starter
The whole is made from the sum of all the parts. Total drag is the measurement of course. I find the Cervelo info interesting and wish there were more comparisons like this.
#37
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,764
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1975 Post(s)
Liked 232 Times
in
173 Posts
I wonder given the advances in CFD, if bike designers have moved to using CFD as the primary design tool with testing either in the wind tunnel or field used primarily to validate the CFD results rather than the designs themselves. I know that's where we're moving in my field.
#38
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,534
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3889 Post(s)
Liked 1,938 Times
in
1,383 Posts
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
#39
Aluminium Crusader :-)
Tour Magazine did a long test which I gather was outdoors, but I dunno if that's what you're looking for.
There's a long thread about it on here:
Tour Magazine 2016 Aero Road Bike Test
There's another thread on Weight Weenies about it. I'll have a look later
There's a long thread about it on here:
Tour Magazine 2016 Aero Road Bike Test
There's another thread on Weight Weenies about it. I'll have a look later
#40
Me duelen las nalgas
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 13,513
Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel
Mentioned: 199 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4560 Post(s)
Liked 2,802 Times
in
1,800 Posts
The mysterious Mr. Hematocrit, for Peloton Magazine video reviews. Probably the best you'll find for real world aero bike testing. He compares two or more bikes per test. He's built like a beast, too muscular for long climbs, but perfect for downhill runs. Useful insights into handing characteristics too.
#41
Aluminium Crusader :-)
I guess they wanted to test the whole package of an aero vs non-aero bike, but it's not a wheel test.
#42
Perceptual Dullard
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,421
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 919 Post(s)
Liked 1,156 Times
in
494 Posts
I wonder given the advances in CFD, if bike designers have moved to using CFD as the primary design tool with testing either in the wind tunnel or field used primarily to validate the CFD results rather than the designs themselves. I know that's where we're moving in my field.
https://www.tue.nl/en/university/new...ously-assumed/
#43
Aluminium Crusader :-)
Here ya go: 37 pages of arguments about aero frames. I thought the test was outdoors, but now I'm not sure. I'll read Tour Mag article on the first page later
https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=136752
The test was done in 2016
The times in the black bars for the bikes using 404s
https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=136752
The test was done in 2016
The times in the black bars for the bikes using 404s
#44
Aluminium Crusader :-)
Ooops! This was the test I was thinking of. Jee, 4 years has gone fast. It's an "aero vs light" frames test from 2014. Interestingly, some of the supposedly non-aero frames were faster than the aero frames. Once again, I'm not sure if it was outdoors. No Treks, Pinarellos, or some other big brands.
Only 19 pages of bickering on this one https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=123175
Most links to the related article have been removed from the Weight Weenies thread, so I dunno what the parameters were. I think it was 100km covered with a constant wattage which wasn't that high; I think well under 300W.
The differences are obviously relatively small, considering the duration of over 4.25 hours.
I stuck them all on the one list. In bold are the "non-aero" frames
4:17:11 Cervelo S5
4:17:34 Merida Reacto EVO
4:17:51 BMC Time Machine TMRO1
4:18:01 Giant Propel Advanced SLO
4:18:02 Specialized S-Works Venge
4:18:06 Simplon Nexico
4:18:18 Scott Foil Team
4:18:25 Cervelo R5
4:18:29 Canyon Aeroad CF
4:18:33 Neil Pryde Bura S1
4:18:37 Scott Addict SL
4:18:45 Neil Pryde Alize
4:18:46 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX
4:18:48 Giant TCR Advanced SL
4:18:52 Ridley Noah Fast
4:18:54 BMC Time Machine SLR 01
4:18:56 Rose Xeon CW-8800
4:18:57 Simplon Pavo 3
4:19:04 Storck Fascenario 0.6
4:19:05 Storck Aerario
4:19:07 Specialized S-Works Tarmac
4:19:12 Ridley Helium SL
4:19:27 Rose Xeon CR5
4:19:42 Merida Scultura CF Team
Only 19 pages of bickering on this one https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=123175
Most links to the related article have been removed from the Weight Weenies thread, so I dunno what the parameters were. I think it was 100km covered with a constant wattage which wasn't that high; I think well under 300W.
The differences are obviously relatively small, considering the duration of over 4.25 hours.
I stuck them all on the one list. In bold are the "non-aero" frames
4:17:11 Cervelo S5
4:17:34 Merida Reacto EVO
4:17:51 BMC Time Machine TMRO1
4:18:01 Giant Propel Advanced SLO
4:18:02 Specialized S-Works Venge
4:18:06 Simplon Nexico
4:18:18 Scott Foil Team
4:18:25 Cervelo R5
4:18:29 Canyon Aeroad CF
4:18:33 Neil Pryde Bura S1
4:18:37 Scott Addict SL
4:18:45 Neil Pryde Alize
4:18:46 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX
4:18:48 Giant TCR Advanced SL
4:18:52 Ridley Noah Fast
4:18:54 BMC Time Machine SLR 01
4:18:56 Rose Xeon CW-8800
4:18:57 Simplon Pavo 3
4:19:04 Storck Fascenario 0.6
4:19:05 Storck Aerario
4:19:07 Specialized S-Works Tarmac
4:19:12 Ridley Helium SL
4:19:27 Rose Xeon CR5
4:19:42 Merida Scultura CF Team
Last edited by 531Aussie; 07-12-18 at 02:38 AM.
#45
Senior Member
The fastest earo bike you can get is a clip on bar and some tight fitting clothes. An aero drop bar bike is close to an oxymoron.
Last edited by Racing Dan; 07-12-18 at 03:07 AM.
#46
Senior Member
Ooops! This was the test I was thinking of. Jee, 4 years has gone fast. It's an "aero vs light" frames test from 2014. Interestingly, some of the supposedly non-aero frames were faster than the aero frames. Once again, I'm not sure if it was outdoors. No Treks, Pinarellos, or some other big brands.
Only 19 pages of bickering on this one https://weightweenies.starbike.com/f...p?f=3&t=123175
Most links to the related article have been removed from the Weight Weenies thread, so I dunno what the parameters were. I think it was 100km covered with a constant wattage which wasn't that high; I think well under 300W.
The differences are obviously relatively small, considering the duration of over 4.25 hours.
I stuck them all on the one list. In bold are the "non-aero" frames
4:17:11 Cervelo S5
4:17:34 Merida Reacto EVO
4:17:51 BMC Time Machine TMRO1
4:18:01 Giant Propel Advanced SLO
4:18:02 Specialized S-Works Venge
4:18:06 Simplon Nexico
4:18:18 Scott Foil Team
4:18:25 Cervelo R5
4:18:29 Canyon Aeroad CF
4:18:33 Neil Pryde Bura S1
4:18:37 Scott Addict SL
4:18:45 Neil Pryde Alize
4:18:46 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX
4:18:48 Giant TCR Advanced SL
4:18:52 Ridley Noah Fast
4:18:54 BMC Time Machine SLR 01
4:18:56 Rose Xeon CW-8800
4:18:57 Simplon Pavo 3
4:19:04 Storck Fascenario 0.6
4:19:05 Storck Aerario
4:19:07 Specialized S-Works Tarmac
4:19:12 Ridley Helium SL
4:19:27 Rose Xeon CR5
4:19:42 Merida Scultura CF Team
Only 19 pages of bickering on this one https://weightweenies.starbike.com/f...p?f=3&t=123175
Most links to the related article have been removed from the Weight Weenies thread, so I dunno what the parameters were. I think it was 100km covered with a constant wattage which wasn't that high; I think well under 300W.
The differences are obviously relatively small, considering the duration of over 4.25 hours.
I stuck them all on the one list. In bold are the "non-aero" frames
4:17:11 Cervelo S5
4:17:34 Merida Reacto EVO
4:17:51 BMC Time Machine TMRO1
4:18:01 Giant Propel Advanced SLO
4:18:02 Specialized S-Works Venge
4:18:06 Simplon Nexico
4:18:18 Scott Foil Team
4:18:25 Cervelo R5
4:18:29 Canyon Aeroad CF
4:18:33 Neil Pryde Bura S1
4:18:37 Scott Addict SL
4:18:45 Neil Pryde Alize
4:18:46 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX
4:18:48 Giant TCR Advanced SL
4:18:52 Ridley Noah Fast
4:18:54 BMC Time Machine SLR 01
4:18:56 Rose Xeon CW-8800
4:18:57 Simplon Pavo 3
4:19:04 Storck Fascenario 0.6
4:19:05 Storck Aerario
4:19:07 Specialized S-Works Tarmac
4:19:12 Ridley Helium SL
4:19:27 Rose Xeon CR5
4:19:42 Merida Scultura CF Team
#47
Aluminium Crusader :-)
I've got no idea about, it, even though I've read those threads on Weight Weenies. People on both sides of the argument -- "aero road frames are worth" vs "it's just marketing bollocks" -- make good points, it seems to me, at least
#48
Aluminium Crusader :-)
Yes, good point. However, as someone claimed in that thread, the target output for the 4+ hours was "only" 200 Watts, and the "pro aero frame" guys reckon that higher speeds/output would've produced more drag, and, therefore, bigger differences.
Last edited by 531Aussie; 07-12-18 at 03:17 AM.
#49
Perceptual Dullard
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,421
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 919 Post(s)
Liked 1,156 Times
in
494 Posts
Different people have different goals and different incentives. By minimizing aero and rolling drag, I've helped a couple of people set world records, a couple of teams win Olympic medals, and one guy to finally beat his brother-in-law in their annual family race. That was sweet.