Thinking About Rollers
07-27-18, 03:21 PM
#26
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How does it improve cadence? Anything you do with cadence you can do on the road.
How does it improve endurance? Probably erodes endurance because people generally train less indoors than they do out.
Balance? Any 5 year old that just learned how to ride a bike can balance. Rollers involve balancing in a particular spot in which you don't ever move from. Completely opposite of the road, in which you must negotiate turns, significant changes in speed, debris, obstacles, other riders, cars, etc. Totally different "balancing" needs.
Pedal smoothness? That's a nonsequitor as putting power to the pedals is not a smooth motion and in fact is more effectively done through a stomping motion, at least for higher power outputs, which is something you don't do on rollers.
Riding rollers makes you good at riding rollers. They have nothing to do with riding in a group or in a race. You get good at those things by doing those things.
How does it improve endurance? Probably erodes endurance because people generally train less indoors than they do out.
Balance? Any 5 year old that just learned how to ride a bike can balance. Rollers involve balancing in a particular spot in which you don't ever move from. Completely opposite of the road, in which you must negotiate turns, significant changes in speed, debris, obstacles, other riders, cars, etc. Totally different "balancing" needs.
Pedal smoothness? That's a nonsequitor as putting power to the pedals is not a smooth motion and in fact is more effectively done through a stomping motion, at least for higher power outputs, which is something you don't do on rollers.
Riding rollers makes you good at riding rollers. They have nothing to do with riding in a group or in a race. You get good at those things by doing those things.
07-27-18, 04:53 PM
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People often hit the hills at higher intensity than the flats. Either because they're non-climbers and have no choice, or just because the relative performance boost for increasing power is bigger on climbs than on flats and downhills. And people tend to choose higher cadences at higher power.
On the flip side, some people seemingly also have an easier time delivering high torque in situations with lower crank inertial load (such as climbing), which can result in them choosing lower cadences than would be expected given the power they're doing.
On the flip side, some people seemingly also have an easier time delivering high torque in situations with lower crank inertial load (such as climbing), which can result in them choosing lower cadences than would be expected given the power they're doing.
But riding on rollers has nothing to do with that.
07-27-18, 04:56 PM
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In the same way that training wheels make it harder to learn to ride- you get used to not balancing.
"I'll disagree with all of the above and assert that riding on a trainer does just about nothing for improving riding on the road"
Do you agree with the above statement?
"I'll disagree with all of the above and assert that riding on a trainer does just about nothing for improving riding on the road"
Do you agree with the above statement?
Absolutely I agree as that's not the point of riding on rollers or a trainer.
But for some reason people always seem to think that's the main purpose of rollers.
07-27-18, 04:57 PM
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This is incorrect.....They do in fact smooth your stroke and if you work on your motion you will not be in a stomping motion nor should you have that on the road. The smooth consistent stroke you get from rollers will translate to the road and allow you a faster ride with less work. The is better but when you have to be indoors they are a great training tool.
07-28-18, 02:47 AM
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Nope ....it came from 13 years of racing at a cat 2. I used them extensively during the winter months which included intervals. Without a smooth action you wont be doing much threshold work without flying off into the wall.
It takes concentration and hours of work to develop an efficient stroke. I also will add a single speed helps with this as well....another topic.
It takes concentration and hours of work to develop an efficient stroke. I also will add a single speed helps with this as well....another topic.
07-28-18, 04:46 AM
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Nope ....it came from 13 years of racing at a cat 2. I used them extensively during the winter months which included intervals. Without a smooth action you wont be doing much threshold work without flying off into the wall.
It takes concentration and hours of work to develop an efficient stroke. I also will add a single speed helps with this as well....another topic.
So it sounds like you made it up. You would have the same stroke if you spent all that time on the road or on a trainer. 13 years of higher-level training has a way of making you "efficient" at the thing you're doing. Nothing about staring at your front wheel while riding on rollers is magical in that process.
But an efficient stroke from rollers? What exactly is that? You don't vertically bounce around? Would you if you've never been on rollers? No.
Maybe if you'd spent all those hours doing some harder repeats instead of working on that "smooth pedal stroke" you'd have gotten to a cat 1...
I jest, I jest.
Last edited by rubiksoval; 07-28-18 at 04:51 AM.
07-28-18, 04:53 AM
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True enough. Just makes no sense how riding on rollers somehow made you pedal faster up 2-3% grades, but apparently no where else.
At the end of the day, people do what they want because they want with no justification needed.
It's when the odd justifications start, however, that things stop really making sense.
At the end of the day, people do what they want because they want with no justification needed.
It's when the odd justifications start, however, that things stop really making sense.
07-28-18, 04:55 AM
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That statement makes ZERO sense. You ride faster by increasing power (so more work), or decreasing resistant forces. So already that statement is nonsensical.
So maybe you started producing more power at lower heart rates or something similar only because you rode on the rollers? Did you measure that? No, of course not, because hardly anyone had a power meter in the 80s and 90s.
So we're left with you thinking you rode faster because you want to think you rode faster because you spent the whole winter slogging it out on rollers. Not exactly empirical evidence, here, and when you get right down to it sounds like we're back to making stuff up.
Last edited by rubiksoval; 07-28-18 at 05:03 AM.
07-28-18, 06:29 AM
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You agree that riding rollers lets you "have a faster ride with less work?'
That statement makes ZERO sense. You ride faster by increasing power (so more work), or decreasing resistant forces. So already that statement is nonsensical.
So maybe you started producing more power at lower heart rates or something similar only because you rode on the rollers? Did you measure that? No, of course not, because hardly anyone had a power meter in the 80s and 90s.
So we're left with you thinking you rode faster because you want to think you rode faster because you spent the whole winter slogging it out on rollers. Not exactly empirical evidence, here, and when you get right down to it sounds like we're back to making stuff up.
That statement makes ZERO sense. You ride faster by increasing power (so more work), or decreasing resistant forces. So already that statement is nonsensical.
So maybe you started producing more power at lower heart rates or something similar only because you rode on the rollers? Did you measure that? No, of course not, because hardly anyone had a power meter in the 80s and 90s.
So we're left with you thinking you rode faster because you want to think you rode faster because you spent the whole winter slogging it out on rollers. Not exactly empirical evidence, here, and when you get right down to it sounds like we're back to making stuff up.
07-28-18, 11:58 AM
#39
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You agree that riding rollers lets you "have a faster ride with less work?'
That statement makes ZERO sense. You ride faster by increasing power (so more work), or decreasing resistant forces. So already that statement is nonsensical.
So maybe you started producing more power at lower heart rates or something similar only because you rode on the rollers? Did you measure that? No, of course not, because hardly anyone had a power meter in the 80s and 90s.
So we're left with you thinking you rode faster because you want to think you rode faster because you spent the whole winter slogging it out on rollers. Not exactly empirical evidence, here, and when you get right down to it sounds like we're back to making stuff up.
That statement makes ZERO sense. You ride faster by increasing power (so more work), or decreasing resistant forces. So already that statement is nonsensical.
So maybe you started producing more power at lower heart rates or something similar only because you rode on the rollers? Did you measure that? No, of course not, because hardly anyone had a power meter in the 80s and 90s.
So we're left with you thinking you rode faster because you want to think you rode faster because you spent the whole winter slogging it out on rollers. Not exactly empirical evidence, here, and when you get right down to it sounds like we're back to making stuff up.
A power meter only measures output at the wheel or wherever, so '80s or today it doesn't measure biomechanical efficiency.
If the left leg is working against the right leg (to grossly oversimplify) it will take more work to go a given speed vs if all the parts work efficiently.
Like an engine with the timing belt off a degree or two.
I'm sure you've seen beginning cyclists thrashing in an attempt to go fast. Would you counsel them to stomp harder, or to develop a more efficient pedal stroke?
07-28-18, 01:04 PM
#40
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FWIW I have been tested on one of those Trek/Bontrager computerized machines that measure pedaling efficiency. At the time, I was in my late 60's. I was told that a "good recreational rider" can pedal at 60% efficiency. Then the fitter said, "You're doing 85% with no imbalance in legs. How are you doing that?" I said, "I've never had a trainer but I've used rollers for over 30 years." He replied, "Of course."
07-28-18, 01:39 PM
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A power meter only measures output at the wheel or wherever, so '80s or today it doesn't measure biomechanical efficiency.
If the left leg is working against the right leg (to grossly oversimplify) it will take more work to go a given speed vs if all the parts work efficiently.
Like an engine with the timing belt off a degree or two.
I'm sure you've seen beginning cyclists thrashing in an attempt to go fast. Would you counsel them to stomp harder, or to develop a more efficient pedal stroke?
If the left leg is working against the right leg (to grossly oversimplify) it will take more work to go a given speed vs if all the parts work efficiently.
Like an engine with the timing belt off a degree or two.
I'm sure you've seen beginning cyclists thrashing in an attempt to go fast. Would you counsel them to stomp harder, or to develop a more efficient pedal stroke?
As for "more work", you can conceivably measure if your body is working harder in a specific situation by correlating heart rate and power.
What you can't measure, however, is whether or not you're going "faster with less work", which is the initial assertion. That's a technical performance issue.
And none of it has anything to do with riding or not riding on rollers.
For beginning cyclists, I'd counsel them to get a handle on their upper bodies and be cognizant of that movement. Pedaling, at the end of the day, is a pretty simplified and basic thing to do.
07-28-18, 01:45 PM
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FWIW I have been tested on one of those Trek/Bontrager computerized machines that measure pedaling efficiency. At the time, I was in my late 60's. I was told that a "good recreational rider" can pedal at 60% efficiency. Then the fitter said, "You're doing 85% with no imbalance in legs. How are you doing that?" I said, "I've never had a trainer but I've used rollers for over 30 years." He replied, "Of course."
The numbers don't even make sense.
07-29-18, 04:31 AM
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If you don't know what the numbers mean, how can it not make sense to you? If you're really interested in an answer, call Trek.
07-29-18, 06:13 AM
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I know exactly what it means. You should find out if you're really interested. I won't bother explaining it to you since you seem more interested in arguing than discovering. I'm done now.
07-29-18, 06:47 AM
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That's basically where your posts are at now. Neither of them make a lick of sense.
07-30-18, 01:23 PM
#47
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Wow... amazes me how someone can come here asking for advice and it turns into a guy with a holier than thou attitude who has to let everyone know that he's a Cat 1 and how good he is at riding a bike ****ting in everyone's Wheaties. Online forums are awesome.
@cawallis188 you have like 15 people on here telling you you'll see some benefits from rollers, you got one guy that's telling you otherwise. Personally, from experience I'm in the first camp.
@cawallis188 you have like 15 people on here telling you you'll see some benefits from rollers, you got one guy that's telling you otherwise. Personally, from experience I'm in the first camp.
07-30-18, 01:42 PM
#48
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I want to thank everyone for their opinions and suggestions. I do appreciate you taking the time to help.
Regarding the below...
One goal I hope to achieve from rollers, which I probably will end up buying, is to learn to ride no-handed, be able to take a drink, etc. If it is, in fact, harder to do on rollers...and I can learn it in the safety of my home without fear of injury...I’ll be that much better at it on the road. It might be a mental thing (fear of crashing), and if I can break that block, it’ll be a confidence booster.
Regarding the below...
One goal I hope to achieve from rollers, which I probably will end up buying, is to learn to ride no-handed, be able to take a drink, etc. If it is, in fact, harder to do on rollers...and I can learn it in the safety of my home without fear of injury...I’ll be that much better at it on the road. It might be a mental thing (fear of crashing), and if I can break that block, it’ll be a confidence booster.
07-30-18, 01:53 PM
#49
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Wow... amazes me how someone can come here asking for advice and it turns into a guy with a holier than thou attitude who has to let everyone know that he's a Cat 1 and how good he is at riding a bike ****ting in everyone's Wheaties. Online forums are awesome.
@cawallis188 you have like 15 people on here telling you you'll see some benefits from rollers, you got one guy that's telling you otherwise. Personally, from experience I'm in the first camp.
@cawallis188 you have like 15 people on here telling you you'll see some benefits from rollers, you got one guy that's telling you otherwise. Personally, from experience I'm in the first camp.
It's not a holier-than-thou attitude, it's a "not believing every little thing that people throw out there" attitude. It's about questioning and thinking critically about subject matter.
Have you noticed there's not a single answer to the question of how rollers actually help you ride faster? Instead it's just people saying "it makes my pedal stroke smoother" with absolutely no reasoning behind that statement or what it means to real-world riding.
Like I said further up, people do what they want because they want to and don't have to justify anything. But when people start trying to justify it with assertions that don't make sense, what's the point of just saying "okay, sure"?
Again, discussion forum. And look, now you've got your two cents in, as pointless as it was.
07-30-18, 03:31 PM
#50
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True enough. Just makes no sense how riding on rollers somehow made you pedal faster up 2-3% grades, but apparently no where else.
At the end of the day, people do what they want because they want with no justification needed.
It's when the odd justifications start, however, that things stop really making sense.
At the end of the day, people do what they want because they want with no justification needed.
It's when the odd justifications start, however, that things stop really making sense.
Not trying to challenge or have an argument. I value clarity over agreement and would just like to understand.
-Tim-