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How do you increase your speed if you’re already averaging over 20mph (10 miles)

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How do you increase your speed if you’re already averaging over 20mph (10 miles)

Old 08-10-18, 07:35 PM
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kevinabbot
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How do you increase your speed if you’re already averaging over 20mph (10 miles)

So I plan on starting hardcore training over the fall/winter and I have never really seriously trained before. For 10 miles I average 23 in a TT. I want to be able to average 26mph for 10 miles. I notice watching crit cat 5 races on YouTube that they can maintain 25mph without being aero and with little aggressive and casual like peddling. For me if I wanted to hit 35 for 30 seconds + on a flat I would have to really pedal hard. I want to know what kind of training got them to that point?

Just some stats:
Age: 17
Height: 5’3”
Weight: 115lbs
Average weekly miles: 200

Thanks!
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Old 08-10-18, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by kevinabbot View Post
So I plan on starting hardcore training over the fall/winter and I have never really seriously trained before. For 10 miles I average 23 in a TT. I want to be able to average 26mph for 10 miles. I notice watching crit cat 5 races on YouTube that they can maintain 25mph without being aero and with little aggressive and casual like peddling. For me if I wanted to hit 35 for 30 seconds + on a flat I would have to really pedal hard. I want to know what kind of training got them to that point?
Read Joe Friel’s “Cyclist’s Training Bible.”
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Old 08-10-18, 08:30 PM
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eBike?
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Old 08-10-18, 08:31 PM
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Take a look at the power curve published by Kurt kinetic.

23 mph takes about 325 watts.
26 mph takes about 475 watts.

At 26mph, it will take 23 minutes to go 10 miles.
That's an insane power to hold for someone as light as you are currently.

Maybe you're able to cut down on the power required by getting into an efficient TT position.
A wind tunnel, expensive bike, and a coach would be needed.

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Old 08-10-18, 08:44 PM
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You are doing well at 23mph over 10 miles. Local shops can connect you with local racers who will provide a lot of coaching if they are decent about it. My son got into racing this year (Only commuted before this) and tried out for a team and was given a position. He was able to ride like yourself, but not hold 25mph for very long at all. Has a sprinters body so is considerably heavier than you in build and it is tougher for him to maintain higher speeds for extended periods of time. He can wind up pretty quick and put out the watts for a stop sign sprint fairly well.

The team took him on because his personality fit the bill and he was able to ride in the pack with them over several longer rides without falling off the back. I think working with someone who has experience (Cat 3 racer and rides with a serious team) will benefit you more than following tips in a book. It has worked well for my son as he is able to do 80 miles averaging 23mph and will only get better. At the races he is a mid-packer, and has finished in the top ten several times as a Cat 5.
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Old 08-10-18, 08:46 PM
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Start training with a power meter
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Old 08-10-18, 08:48 PM
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With your build TT will never be your strength.

You're built like a climber. So climb.
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Old 08-10-18, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
I think working with someone who has experience (Cat 3 racer and rides with a serious team) will benefit you more than following tips in a book.
I wonder if you’ave ever looked at “Trainig Bible.” It’s much more than a collection of “tips.” Friel includes the basics of cycling physiology and covers principles of training. For example, he explains how what’s required for riding 35 mph for 30 sec. is completely different from riding 26 mph for 10 miles.
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Old 08-10-18, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
You are doing well at 23mph over 10 miles. Local shops can connect you with local racers who will provide a lot of coaching if they are decent about it. My son got into racing this year (Only commuted before this) and tried out for a team and was given a position. He was able to ride like yourself, but not hold 25mph for very long at all. Has a sprinters body so is considerably heavier than you in build and it is tougher for him to maintain higher speeds for extended periods of time. He can wind up pretty quick and put out the watts for a stop sign sprint fairly well.

The team took him on because his personality fit the bill and he was able to ride in the pack with them over several longer rides without falling off the back. I think working with someone who has experience (Cat 3 racer and rides with a serious team) will benefit you more than following tips in a book. It has worked well for my son as he is able to do 80 miles averaging 23mph and will only get better. At the races he is a mid-packer, and has finished in the top ten several times as a Cat 5.
wow. He can average 23mph for 80 miles straight? That’s incredible
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Old 08-10-18, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by kevinabbot View Post


wow. He can average 23mph for 80 miles straight? That’s incredible
No, if he can do it solo, on a non-TT bike, it's incredible. If it's in a race, it's typical. The local amateur weekend races around here will regularly average +25mph. Race speed has nothing to do with solo speed. The guys mid-pack are doing 25mph on 160 watts. That speed solo takes about 400 watts.

For you OP, at your diminutive size, you're going to need to put out a nearly astonishing amount of power to sustain that speed for any period of time. Like... 6W/kg or better. CAT1 power, basically.
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Old 08-10-18, 10:06 PM
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Well you have already gone from 27min for 10 miles (22.2mph) to 23mph in less than a week so I would suggest you carry on doing what you are doing.
You will be up to 26mph quite soon.
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Old 08-11-18, 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
.... If it's in a race, it's typical. The local amateur weekend races around here will regularly average +25mph. Race speed has nothing to do with solo speed. The guys mid-pack are doing 25mph on 160 watts. That speed solo takes about 400 watts.
Let's not make it TOO intimidating. The takeaway, and the easy answer to the original question is simply: find a peloton to sit in the middle of.
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Old 08-11-18, 04:01 AM
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Train seriously. There is a forum for that here. (https://www.bikeforums.net/training-nutrition/)

Don't listen to the naysayers. You are built like a climber, so you will never succeed in TTs ... they never said to Chris Froome. Ridiculous.

You need a serious training program, and you need to stick with it. I am sure, in the internet age, the hardest part is picking one which suits both your needs, schedule, and abilities at this time .... which is just more work, and obviously you are willing to work to go faster.
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Old 08-11-18, 06:06 AM
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Old 08-11-18, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
Well you have already gone from 27min for 10 miles (22.2mph) to 23mph in less than a week so I would suggest you carry on doing what you are doing.
You will be up to 26mph quite soon.
Just 3 weeks in fact
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Old 08-11-18, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by f4rrest View Post
Take a look at the power curve published by Kurt kinetic.

23 mph takes about 325 watts.
26 mph takes about 475 watts.

At 26mph, it will take 23 minutes to go 10 miles.
That's an insane power to hold for someone as light as you are currently.

Maybe you're able to cut down on the power required by getting into an efficient TT position.
A wind tunnel, expensive bike, and a coach would be needed.

That's not a good example. Kurt says it's power curve is similar to riding up a 1% grade. I can go considerably faster on the road than on my Kurt trainer for the same effort. This chart doesn't apply to a rider out on the road.

Their power curve chart is very useful for estimating power while on the trainer. Just look at the current wheel speed to convert it to a power number. (It's can be a little off the actual power numbers, though.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Originally Posted by kevinabbot View Post
So I plan on starting hardcore training over the fall/winter and I have never really seriously trained before. For 10 miles I average 23 in a TT. I want to be able to average 26mph for 10 miles. I notice watching crit cat 5 races on YouTube that they can maintain 25mph without being aero and with little aggressive and casual like peddling. For me if I wanted to hit 35 for 30 seconds + on a flat I would have to really pedal hard. I want to know what kind of training got them to that point?

Just some stats:
Age: 17
Height: 5’3”
Weight: 115lbs
Average weekly miles: 200

Thanks!





I don't think that most amateur racers can hold 25 mph with a "casual" effort. It's hard to see if they are going all-out. Check their heart rates on the race videos with the stats boxes, it's usually quite high, not too much lower than the max efforts on the last lap.

Getting more aero can boost your speed:
On this speed-power calculator, with height 63 inches, weight 115, bike weight 17. (This calculator is just an estimate, of course, but it shows the effects of changes.)
240 watts, hands on the bar tops: 21.1 mph
240 watts, hands on the drops: 23.5 mph
240 watts, triathlon bike (aerobars, etc): 24.9 mph

It takes a lot more power to go just a little faster:
240 watts, hands in the drops: 23.5 mph
288 watts, hands in the drops: 25.1 mph. That's 20% more power to go 1.6 mph faster.
Just a half mph speed increase needs 255 watts instead of 240 watts. Even small speed increases means you are getting stronger.

~~~~~~~
Your goals
What are your goals?
Time trials really benefit from getting more aero, especially an aero riding position that still lets you go full power. On flatter courses, it's holding the maximum sustainable power for the whole race.
Hill climbs are about watts per kilogram, going hard on the steep parts, and knowing how hard to ride to get to the top the fastest way. (and moderate grades are still partly about aero)
Racing is repeated sprints and quick recovery, and smart racing tactics, staying out of the wind.

Last edited by rm -rf; 08-11-18 at 07:06 AM.
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Old 08-11-18, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Abe_Froman View Post
Just 3 weeks in fact
29 mph in 6 weeks
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Old 08-11-18, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by kevinabbot View Post
So I plan on starting hardcore training over the fall/winter and I have never really seriously trained before. For 10 miles I average 23 in a TT. I want to be able to average 26mph for 10 miles. I notice watching crit cat 5 races on YouTube that they can maintain 25mph without being aero and with little aggressive and casual like peddling. For me if I wanted to hit 35 for 30 seconds + on a flat I would have to really pedal hard. I want to know what kind of training got them to that point?

Just some stats:
Age: 17
Height: 5’3”
Weight: 115lbs
Average weekly miles: 200

Thanks!
You have a lot of room left to add muscle to your frame. It doesn't happen in the blink of an eye, but I'm envious that you're only 17

Really you just need to ride the heck out of your bike. I'm a complete newb when it comes to racing (I don't!) but thanks to Strava I follow different levels of racers. And they all put in significant mileage, most of them have a minimum of 6k miles now. The one guy I follow, who is part of a sponsored team, has 11k miles by now this year. He was often doing 80 miles/day throughout the winter and into the spring before racing. These guys will solo a 100 miles at around 21mph here with about 2,500ft of climb.

Being 17 means you'll be looking at life after high school very soon, so maybe you should start planning on where you want to go that has a good cycling community. Whether it's community college, University, or a trade school, or heck just a job in a community with a lot of cycling.

I'll say this - find a mentor!!!!!! Humble yourself, and seek out people that seem willing to let you tag along. Never take a helping hand for granted - and be aware of when someone is trying to help. You'll face alot of competition for others attention, and don't let jealousy get the best of you.
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Old 08-11-18, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by rm -rf View Post
That's not a good example. Kurt says it's power curve is similar to riding up a 1% grade. I can go considerably faster on the road than on my Kurt trainer for the same effort.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
well duh. Trainers are stationary.
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Old 08-11-18, 06:43 AM
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The kreuzotter.de bike calculator indicates that you're holding about 230 watts now (23 mph on flat road), and that to get up to 26 mph on a flat road, solo, you'll need to maintain 320 watts. That's 6.1 watts per kilogram at your current weight. 6.1 w/kg for 20+ minutes is elite. You're at 4.4 w/kg now, which is quite good. But that means more when you're battling gravity, uphill, than when you're battling air resistance, on the flat.

edit: Also, as mentioned, 25 mph in the pack is way different than 25 mph solo. Crits aren't won by one rider going solo with massive power and riding away from the peloton for the whole race. You don't need 6.1 w/kg to win a crit. You need enough power to stay in the pack when you need to, to make the break when you need to, and then to break in front before the end.

Originally Posted by kevinabbot View Post
... For 10 miles I average 23 in a TT. I want to be able to average 26mph for 10 miles....

Height: 5’3”
Weight: 115lbs
...

Last edited by Athens80; 08-11-18 at 06:49 AM.
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Old 08-11-18, 11:23 AM
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These calculations are all stupid. Are they accounting for CdA? How can you possibly know what that is for this new rider? He hasn't posted power data so we have no way of estimating that. There can be *huge* variations in CdA for a rider of a given size given their bike fit and body proportions. With the right build, little dudes can be world-class in the TT (think Leipheimer). Also he's only 17 so he might get a little more muscular in the next few years and if he's a newbie rider he's only going to get more powerful.

OP I say screw the advice of everyone here and just keep at it. Experiment with pacing and position and as long as you keep riding you'll get faster.
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Old 08-11-18, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
These calculations are all stupid. Are they accounting for CdA? How can you possibly know what that is for this new rider? He hasn't posted power data so we have no way of estimating that. There can be *huge* variations in CdA for a rider of a given size given their bike fit and body proportions. With the right build, little dudes can be world-class in the TT (think Leipheimer). Also he's only 17 so he might get a little more muscular in the next few years and if he's a newbie rider he's only going to get more powerful.

OP I say screw the advice of everyone here and just keep at it. Experiment with pacing and position and as long as you keep riding you'll get faster.
No they're not accounting for CdA as measured in a wind tunnel. They're using the information available.

Certainly OP will get more muscular and more powerful.

I wouldn't use Leipheimer at 130-something pounds as the example. Levi used EPO and testosterone and underwent prohibited blood transfusions off-and-on between 1999 and 2007. He was stripped of all race results from June 1, 1999 to July 30, 2006, and July 7 to 29, 2007. Which TT's did he win?

[edit: Leipheimer retained his third place finish in the 2008 Olympics ITT, so world class there.]

[more off-topic info: Leipheimer does retain 10 professional ITT wins, at races below the World Tour level, plus 3 prologue wins, including the 2008 Critérium Du Dauphiné Libéré prologue.]

What is the lowest power you could conceive of for a 5'3" rider to cover 10 miles at 26 mph?

Last edited by Athens80; 08-11-18 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 08-11-18, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Athens80 View Post
What is the lowest power you could conceive of for a 5'3" rider to cover 10 miles at 26 mph?
With a very low CdA of 0.19, Crr of 0.002, and total equipment weight of 15 lbs., it could be done with ~200 W. per analyticcycling.com. At ~3.40 W/kg, that's not an exceptional number.
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Old 08-11-18, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
With a very low CdA of 0.19, Crr of 0.002, and total equipment weight of 15 lbs., it could be done with ~200 W. per analyticcycling.com. At ~3.40 W/kg, that's not an exceptional number.
Agreed. I'd be interested to hear what it takes to get that slippery, and who's achieved it.
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Old 08-11-18, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Athens80 View Post
The kreuzotter.de bike calculator indicates that you're holding about 230 watts now (23 mph on flat road), and that to get up to 26 mph on a flat road, solo, you'll need to maintain 320 watts. That's 6.1 watts per kilogram at your current weight. 6.1 w/kg for 20+ minutes is elite. You're at 4.4 w/kg now, which is quite good. But that means more when you're battling gravity, uphill, than when you're battling air resistance, on the flat.

edit: Also, as mentioned, 25 mph in the pack is way different than 25 mph solo. Crits aren't won by one rider going solo with massive power and riding away from the peloton for the whole race. You don't need 6.1 w/kg to win a crit. You need enough power to stay in the pack when you need to, to make the break when you need to, and then to break in front before the end.
That’s something I don’t get I haven’t been in a group (yet) but I hear so much about how it’s soooo much faster. With the effort I put into 23mph solo could I hit 25 with the same effort in a group. It just seems wild that air can make that kind of difference. And you’re gonna feel some wind because you won’t be perfectly in line but you won’t get a lot. I ride a Trek ALR Domane 4 Disc which is a road bike but not a “race” bike like the Madone. I can’t afford that kind of bike as a 17 year old.
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