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Average speed: my frenemy

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Average speed: my frenemy

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Old 09-14-18, 06:30 AM
  #76  
burnthesheep
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For the folks asking the questions in here, a question for you: what's your goal with using this information?

-move up to a faster group ride?
-bag a local KOM?
-try out a race of some kind?
-get to work faster on your commute with the same or less sweat?
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Old 09-14-18, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
I think you're somewhat of an outlier.
That's a far more charitable comment than I was going to suggest!
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Old 09-14-18, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
For the folks asking the questions in here, a question for you: what's your goal with using this information?

-move up to a faster group ride?
-bag a local KOM?
-try out a race of some kind?
-get to work faster on your commute with the same or less sweat?
You don't have to have specific goals, it's a matter of personal satisfaction.
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Old 09-14-18, 09:04 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
For the folks asking the questions in here, a question for you: what's your goal with using this information?

-move up to a faster group ride?
-bag a local KOM?
-try out a race of some kind?
-get to work faster on your commute with the same or less sweat?
More speed = more enjoyment.
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Old 09-14-18, 09:07 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
I think you're somewhat of an outlier. Most people find they do better with a warm up. And every coach I've ever had has talked about the value of cooling down. A few minutes of easy spinning is the start of the recovery for the next day.

I get that trying to maintain a high average speed for a long endurance ride can have some advantage. My point however is that focusing regularly on average speed is going to cause you to ride too hard when you're supposed to go easy, and ride to slow when you're supposed to go hard.

If your training routine is to go out and ride every ride for the highest average speed you can obtain you're quickly going to plateau and stagnate.

I'm not saying to eschew average speed all the time. I am saying focusing on average speed of all your rides, particularly to the exclusion of intervals and to a lesser degree recovery rides, is a bad idea.
I don't. Especially not in regards to a cool down. How many people end group rides with extra laps around the parking lot? Almost none that I've been to, though a few people ride to the ride and then ride home, so who knows what they're doing.

Same for most races I do. Guys finish the race and they're done. They're not going out and doing 4-5 miles to "cool down".

As for the warm up, I think it depends on age, experience, and ride volume. Ride the day before or the morning of and a warmup is likely superfluous for many people. Older riders, riders doing insane training loads, etc. ,may need more time. I doubt I'm much of an outlier, though.
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Old 09-14-18, 09:08 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by Bob Ross View Post
That's a far more charitable comment than I was going to suggest!
Well don't stop there.
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Old 09-14-18, 09:10 AM
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Well, I do find that getting the HR down before getting off the bike helps with not being woozy later. But that can usually be done in the 1/4 mile or so on my street on the way home. Unless I've dehydrated myself... again. Does that count as cooldown?
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Old 09-14-18, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
More speed = more enjoyment.
Fallacy of misplaced concreteness....
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Old 09-14-18, 09:22 AM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by Brofessor View Post
Fallacy of misplaced concreteness....
You don't seem to understand fallacies very well.
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Old 09-14-18, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
You don't seem to understand fallacies very well.
Please elaborate.
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Old 09-14-18, 10:38 AM
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Ceteris paribus is just a statistical cya for what generally means, taking into consideration the obvious, which in this instance essentially means, with other things held constant or, "all else equal." In practice, it may take a little common sense but withal, you can know when you've worked harder if you're serious about it without investing in a power meter. For example, if you compare your avg. mph on many solo rides over a 12 loop and it generally takes about an hour --e.g., ~12 mph but, you've never achieved >12.6 avg. mph... you may never see more than that without a lot of hard work, at which time an ephemeral "13" avg. mph on your Cateye display will be your deservedly rewarded experience.
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Old 09-14-18, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Brofessor View Post
Please elaborate.
You assert, I question your knowledge pertaining to the assertion.
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Old 09-14-18, 11:59 AM
  #88  
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I no monitor speed during a ride. I have found monitoring power has allowed for a more consistent pace, which has improved my average pace.
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Old 09-14-18, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
Ceteris paribus is just a statistical cya for what generally means, taking into consideration the obvious, which in this instance essentially means, with other things held constant or, "all else equal." In practice, it may take a little common sense but withal, you can know when you've worked harder if you're serious about it without investing in a power meter. For example, if you compare your avg. mph on many solo rides over a 12 loop and it generally takes about an hour --e.g., ~12 mph but, you've never achieved >12.6 avg. mph... you may never see more than that without a lot of hard work, at which time an ephemeral "13" avg. mph on your Cateye display will be your deservedly rewarded experience.
It's funny that you used a two word Latin phrase to apparently save you time, but then went back and typed 4 lines to explain how you wanted everyone else to understand said two words.

Maybe next time, just start with the latter.

And in response to your extended elaboration: no, you can't always tell when you're working harder. Sometimes I feel like crap but I'm absolutely railing it. Sometimes I just feel normal but my watts are low. That's the problem with subjectivity, and that's the boon for devices that measure objectively.
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Old 09-14-18, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
For the folks asking the questions in here, a question for you: what's your goal with using this information?

-move up to a faster group ride?
-bag a local KOM?
-try out a race of some kind?
-get to work faster on your commute with the same or less sweat?
For me, many of my friends ride a lot. I have one good friend who consistently does 9,000 plus a year. I don’t want to ride miles like that. I can with a structured program put in a lot less miles and still keep up with my friends.
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Old 09-14-18, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
It's funny that you used a two word Latin phrase to apparently save you time, but then went back and typed 4 lines to explain how you wanted everyone else to understand said two words.

Maybe next time, just start with the latter.

And in response to your extended elaboration no, you can't always tell when you're working harder. Sometimes I feel like crap but I'm absolutely railing it. Sometimes I just feel normal but my watts are low. That's the problem with subjectivity, and that's the boon for devices that measure objectively.
Not so at all... the 'extended elaboration' is a single sentence, just to make sure we're talking about the same thing which I thought was necessary because of preceding posts as well as your conclusion which in my opinion is erroneous. Average mph clearly is an objective indicator of performance and if you apply a little common sense, it provides meaningful information-- again... just my opinion.
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Old 09-14-18, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
You assert, I question your knowledge pertaining to the assertion.
Alright, let me explain my assertion as succinctly as possible. You claimed "more speed = more enjoyment", which is an abstraction you made based on your personal preference that may or may not apply to other people's reality (i.e. some might argue that more speed = less fun, simply because one needs to be more vigilant while riding at higher speeds). Since you used a mathematical formulation, it is implied that you think this equality is a universal observation. Hence, you fell in to the fallacy of misplaced concreteness, the definition of which can be found here:Fallacy of Misplaced Concreteness. Perhaps you meant to express this as a personal opinion. In that case, a rephrasing of your assertion would be necessary to reflect the subjective nature of it.

Now, would you please be kind enough to explain how I got my fallacies wrong?
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Old 09-14-18, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Brofessor View Post


Hence, you fell in to the fallacy of misplaced concreteness, the definition of which can be found here:Fallacy of Misplaced Concreteness. Perhaps you meant to express this as a personal opinion. In that case, a rephrasing of your assertion would be necessary to reflect the subjective nature of it.

Now, would you please be kind enough to explain how I got my fallacies wrong?
Rather than fallacies of loopy logic, I'd suggest what we see more often are examples of shibboleths...
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Old 09-14-18, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
Rather than fallacies of loopy logic, I'd suggest what we see more often are examples of shibboleths...
True. Fallacies are created by those who mistake shibboleths for universal facts.
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Old 09-14-18, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Brofessor View Post
Fallacies are created by those who mistake shibboleths for universal facts.
aka Philosopher's Syndrome: "Mistaking a failure of the imagination for an insight into necessity"
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Old 09-14-18, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Brofessor View Post
Alright, let me explain my assertion as succinctly as possible. You claimed "more speed = more enjoyment", which is an abstraction you made based on your personal preference that may or may not apply to other people's reality (i.e. some might argue that more speed = less fun, simply because one needs to be more vigilant while riding at higher speeds). Since you used a mathematical formulation, it is implied that you think this equality is a universal observation. Hence, you fell in to the fallacy of misplaced concreteness, the definition of which can be found here:Fallacy of Misplaced Concreteness. Perhaps you meant to express this as a personal opinion. In that case, a rephrasing of your assertion would be necessary to reflect the subjective nature of it.

Now, would you please be kind enough to explain how I got my fallacies wrong?
Because there's no fallacy to begin with. You erroneously assumed my quote was in general. It was not. I don't need to express that in any other way than I did. Perhaps you shouldn't make such egregious assertions on faulty assumptions in the future.

But be sure to let me know if you need any additional logic tips or clarifications.
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Old 09-14-18, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
Not so at all... the 'extended elaboration' is a single sentence, just to make sure we're talking about the same thing which I thought was necessary because of preceding posts as well as your conclusion which in my opinion is erroneous. Average mph clearly is an objective indicator of performance and if you apply a little common sense, it provides meaningful information-- again... just my opinion.
Average mph is an objective indicator of performance in a race, sure. Or it can even show trends in aggregate over larger periods of time. But not in a day to day sense for pure performance assessments.

But that wasn't your premise, anyway. You stated that you can tell that you worked harder, which is a subjective assertion. I can very easily "feel" I work much harder or easier than I actually do. A false flat with a headwind may 'feel" harder than going the other way with a tailwind, even though I put out the same power. And then speed is clearly going to be significantly different for either situation should that wind change. Lots of various scenarios to debunk said premise.

But this topic may extend past the pinnacle of common sense you're so adamantly declaring, so...
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Old 09-14-18, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Ross View Post
aka Philosopher's Syndrome: "Mistaking a failure of the imagination for an insight into necessity"
It's like a consortium of strawmen in here.
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Old 09-15-18, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
I don't. Especially not in regards to a cool down. How many people end group rides with extra laps around the parking lot? Almost none that I've been to, though a few people ride to the ride and then ride home, so who knows what they're doing.

Same for most races I do. Guys finish the race and they're done. They're not going out and doing 4-5 miles to "cool down".

As for the warm up, I think it depends on age, experience, and ride volume. Ride the day before or the morning of and a warmup is likely superfluous for many people. Older riders, riders doing insane training loads, etc. ,may need more time. I doubt I'm much of an outlier, though.
When I race crits, I typically do a lap after the race, and maybe a little more off the course as a cool down. That seems pretty typical in my observation.

The hard group training rides around here have the final sprint point a couple of miles from the shop, with an easy ride in from there.
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Old 09-15-18, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
When I race crits, I typically do a lap after the race, and maybe a little more off the course as a cool down. That seems pretty typical in my observation.
Okay, sure. I see people doing that. But does an extra 2-3 minutes (or .5 - 1 mile) of riiding really constitute a proper cool down as you were describing? I mean, that's no more of a cool down than riding back to the car and then walking back to the podium.

At that point it seems more an exercise in continuing on around the course to get back to the start line rather than braking from 35 mph to 0 and possibly getting hit from behind.

I think the entire notion of a cool down as prescribed by the majority of people is an archaic holdover from gym class in which you also did static stretches to "warm up". Old school stuff that has no practical performance application at all.

Now if these guys doing a lap of the crit course afterwards are then hopping on a trainer for 15-20 minutes a la Team Sky or something, then that might be something else.
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