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Group Rides with the Big Boys

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Group Rides with the Big Boys

Old 09-11-18, 03:45 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
It's a joke on a silly statement.

Regrouping for 2-3 minutes at an intersection has zero effect on "stamina".

You realize that any time you're coasting you're "resting", right? Coasting/stopping/etc. is not going to have an effect on "stamina".
We don't coast. Maybe people with hills do that?

We have rest stops, which I assumed is what others meant by a "regroup point". Our rest stops are 10 to 15 minutes usually. The A group tends to skip them to build stamina.

So you're arguing that group riders are dumb if they don't wait at intersections for 2 to 3 minutes for people who have crashed? I don't really follow that.
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Old 09-11-18, 03:51 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by memebag View Post
We don't coast. Maybe people with hills do that?

We have rest stops, which I assumed is what others meant by a "regroup point". Our rest stops are 10 to 15 minutes usually. The A group tends to skip them to build stamina.

So you're arguing that group riders are dumb if they don't wait at intersections for 2 to 3 minutes for people who have crashed? I don't really follow that.
You coast. You coast in the draft, you coast to intersections, you coast all the time. In fact, I bet if you have power data that you're coasting >10% of your ride time.

Again, whatever you think stamina is is not built because a group does or does not stop for a few minutes. Like I said, there's lots and lots of coasting going on.

You don't follow that because you apparently made it up. I didn't say that.
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Old 09-11-18, 03:58 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by memebag View Post
Is that supposed to be a joke? People who ride long distances build stamina. They do that by not stopping to rest (or regroup).
You raise an interesting question. IMO @rubiksoval is correct. But why or why not? What's the scientific basis? I gave up training harder long ago in favor of training smarter. Please present your evidence. Or is that another thread for the LD forum?

On all our group rides of over about 40 miles, we have a coffee stop. Some split a sandwich or something also, but never "lunch." After the stop, if anything we can work harder than had we not stopped, which is the whole idea of stopping, because it's lots of high end work 'til your legs fall off that builds "stamina." That's a fact. Our group rides are specific prep for the PNW's long endurance rides - STP, RAMROD, and SIR brevets. We're not out there in the effing rain to just dick around. We know what works.

And mostly we do have regroup points, usually hill tops. A regroup means you get to beat the crap out of your buddies again.
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Old 09-11-18, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
A regroup means you get to beat the crap out of your buddies again.


This comment was the best part of this whole thread my friend. I like your philosophy.


-Tim-
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Old 09-11-18, 05:06 PM
  #55  
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After rubiksoval's comment I went back and looked some training peaks data on some group rides. On a 50 mile group ride, between 45-55% of the time is in Z1. That's a lot of coasting and soft pedaling.
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Old 09-11-18, 05:36 PM
  #56  
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Remember, if any of them "big boys" dress like Lance, you must drop them.
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Old 09-11-18, 06:27 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post

Racing, thankfully, is not solely about fitness.

Being able to ride efficiently and effectively in a group is probably THE most important aspect of racing. Once you're able to do that, however, you've got to work on the engine
.
In the Training With A Powermeter book, I remember reading about that the authors found, from analyzing the data of their winning riders, that they had spent less time pedaling than their opponents. When they did expend energy, it was at a much higher level then the rest of the field

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Old 09-11-18, 08:35 PM
  #58  
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Tales from the crypt: I gave up leading the fast boys and girls when I couldn't anymore, aged out. So for a new challenge I took up tandeming with my wife. So one Sunday she was sick and couldn't come out to the ride. A buddy 30 years younger than I offered to stoke. We have a few pretty fast guys in the group, all faster than I ever was, but there's still tactics, right? And my stoker was one of those fast guys. On our route this day there was a long rather gentle downhill before the queen climb of the day, last climb before the easier last 10 miles to the brewery. When we hit that downhill, I took the tandem out in front and just pedaled the heck out of it, both of us on our aero bars and the fast guys strung out behind us. If you've ever ridden with a good tandem, you'll know that they work you hardest on the downhill. So by the time we got to the climb I had 'em right where I wanted 'em. We spun it up and just rode those fast guys with their tongues hanging out right off our wheel. That was pretty funny, me with the white beard and all. When my buddy got out of the truck instead of my wife that morning, there had been a chorus of "Oh No!"
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Old 09-11-18, 09:38 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Tales from the crypt: I gave up leading the fast boys and girls when I couldn't anymore, aged out. So for a new challenge I took up tandeming with my wife. So one Sunday she was sick and couldn't come out to the ride. A buddy 30 years younger than I offered to stoke. We have a few pretty fast guys in the group, all faster than I ever was, but there's still tactics, right? And my stoker was one of those fast guys. On our route this day there was a long rather gentle downhill before the queen climb of the day, last climb before the easier last 10 miles to the brewery. When we hit that downhill, I took the tandem out in front and just pedaled the heck out of it, both of us on our aero bars and the fast guys strung out behind us. If you've ever ridden with a good tandem, you'll know that they work you hardest on the downhill. So by the time we got to the climb I had 'em right where I wanted 'em. We spun it up and just rode those fast guys with their tongues hanging out right off our wheel. That was pretty funny, me with the white beard and all. When my buddy got out of the truck instead of my wife that morning, there had been a chorus of "Oh No!"

The stoker had aero bars? That sounds uncomfortable/kinky for the captain.
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Old 09-11-18, 10:01 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by caloso View Post
After rubiksoval's comment I went back and looked some training peaks data on some group rides. On a 50 mile group ride, between 45-55% of the time is in Z1. That's a lot of coasting and soft pedaling.
Wow! It really depends on the group. Not what I'm used to. On our last 40 mile local ride with the group this summer, I was:
Anaerobic 5%
Threshold 35%
Tempo 33%
Moderate 22%
Z1 4%

Course profile, normal for our rides:


That's how one gets/stays strong. Those are HR zones, not power, but I don't drift much this late in summer. This was a very hard ride even for this group. I was in Z4 for 56 minutes. Usually, it's more like 45 minutes total. Z1 is very normal, not usually over 5 minutes. My average HR was 92% of LTHR, whereas 88% is more usual. I was on the tandem with my wife, who matches me very closely for effort, not so much for watts. It wouldn't have been much different had I been on my single: I just would have been nearer the front. The finish was pretty tandem friendly, the rest not so much. We worked extra hard on the tandem friendly part, making up time. Our ride time was 2:40, 88% pedaling time. Not too bad for a 142 y.o. tandem team.

It's not just me. We've all always done this, ride as hard as we can. You need to find faster friends. We only coast when we've spun out at max effort. We might soft pedal for a minute or 2 to allow someone to catch back on, but that's rare. Usually it's a cruelty to do that and then hurt them again. Sometimes they break. It's like @Hermes and the moto that you can't catch.
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Old 09-11-18, 10:09 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by woodcraft View Post
The stoker had aero bars? That sounds uncomfortable/kinky for the captain.
You're not familiar with tandems. I don't notice her at all back there. She's really good. I do feel her hands by my butt, but that's nice.:

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Old 09-11-18, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
You're not familiar with tandems. I don't notice her at all back there. She's really good. I do feel her hands by my butt, but that's nice.:


I was picturing like your aero bars
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Old 09-12-18, 05:26 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Wow! It really depends on the group. Not what I'm used to. On our last 40 mile local ride with the group this summer, I was:
Anaerobic 5%
Threshold 35%
Tempo 33%
Moderate 22%
Z1 4%

Course profile, normal for our rides:


That's how one gets/stays strong. Those are HR zones, not power, but I don't drift much this late in summer. .
I absolutely guarantee you your power was in z1 for way, way more than 10%. Probably higher than 30% on a group ride with a course profile like that.

Another example of where heart rate falls short. You just don't realize how easy you pedal a lot of the time without a power meter. It's an eye-opener.

ETA: I noticed you said you coasted for 12% of the ride. So yeah, if coasting amounted to that much, then easy/soft pedaling/z1 will include that and be much higher.

Last edited by rubiksoval; 09-12-18 at 05:49 AM.
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Old 09-12-18, 05:40 AM
  #64  
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To give an example: my rides are typically 400-500 feet of elevation every 10 miles. There are zero redlights on my routes and a minimum of intersections. About the very best I can do is less than 8% of total time in Z1. 10% is usually the goal on my solo rides to ensure I'm maximizing my time. That's 6 minutes of z1 in 60.

And that's with about the minimum interruptions I can achieve on open roads.

In a group ride, it gets closer to 40-50% as Caloso mentioned simply because any time you're not on the front you're having to check up and coast in the draft. Then there's the additional slowing at turns and intersections and downhills and the like. Any downhill grade in a group in which you're not on the front is almost always in z1 or coasting simply to avoid rolling up into the person in front of you.

All of those seconds quickly add up to minutes and on longer rides add up to hours.
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Old 09-12-18, 06:47 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
I absolutely guarantee you your power was in z1 for way, way more than 10%. Probably higher than 30% on a group ride with a course profile like that.

Another example of where heart rate falls short. You just don't realize how easy you pedal a lot of the time without a power meter. It's an eye-opener.

ETA: I noticed you said you coasted for 12% of the ride. So yeah, if coasting amounted to that much, then easy/soft pedaling/z1 will include that and be much higher.
I'd qualify that by saying that, for some people, even sitting in the middle of a fast paceline is real work, and only stops and the longest descents allow any coasting. I think a rider has to be pretty fit for a sprited ride to have as much Z1 time as you experience, but I'm sure you're right in principle; there's no way anyone's heart rate drops off as fast as ones watts.
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Old 09-12-18, 07:42 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by kbarch View Post
I'd qualify that by saying that, for some people, even sitting in the middle of a fast paceline is real work, and only stops and the longest descents allow any coasting. I think a rider has to be pretty fit for a sprited ride to have as much Z1 time as you experience, but I'm sure you're right in principle; there's no way anyone's heart rate drops off as fast as ones watts.
Bit of an extreme example but the data below are from a 40min crit. NP for the crit was 297W but I spent 49% of the time under 213W and 39% of the time in active recovery. In contrast, HR was 0% in Z1 & Z2


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Old 09-12-18, 08:01 AM
  #67  
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Can confirm that group rides = A LOT of Z1. Even the fast ones with the "big boys."
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Old 09-12-18, 08:07 AM
  #68  
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Probably true. I know you get a really good draft sitting behind a bunch of big boys.
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Old 09-12-18, 08:30 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
You coast. You coast in the draft, you coast to intersections, you coast all the time. In fact, I bet if you have power data that you're coasting >10% of your ride time.

Again, whatever you think stamina is is not built because a group does or does not stop for a few minutes. Like I said, there's lots and lots of coasting going on.
No power data, but I don't coast. I pedal.

Stamina is built by going longer without resting. Are you really saying that isn't how athletes build stamina?

Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
You don't follow that because you apparently made it up. I didn't say that.
Then let's recap and maybe I will understand what you are saying.

You said group riders were dumb if they don't stop to regroup and wait for riders who have been dropped, had mechanicals or crashed.
I said some group riders build stamina by not stopping to regroup (and implied they aren't dumb).
You said stopping 2 to 3 minutes had no effect on stamina.
I thought you meant 2 to 3 minutes was long enough to wait on riders who have been dropped, had mechanicals or crashed.
If that isn't what you meant, what did you mean?

Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
You raise an interesting question. IMO @rubiksoval is correct. But why or why not? What's the scientific basis? I gave up training harder long ago in favor of training smarter. Please present your evidence. Or is that another thread for the LD forum?

On all our group rides of over about 40 miles, we have a coffee stop. Some split a sandwich or something also, but never "lunch." After the stop, if anything we can work harder than had we not stopped, which is the whole idea of stopping, because it's lots of high end work 'til your legs fall off that builds "stamina." That's a fact. Our group rides are specific prep for the PNW's long endurance rides - STP, RAMROD, and SIR brevets. We're not out there in the effing rain to just dick around. We know what works.

And mostly we do have regroup points, usually hill tops. A regroup means you get to beat the crap out of your buddies again.
We do they same, but the strongest riders skip stops. While the average rider may stop every 20 miles, the strongest will ride 40 or 60 without stopping. They do that to build stamina for organized charity centuries.

My evidence is just what I've observed.
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Old 09-12-18, 08:32 AM
  #70  
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@Carbonfiberboy Heart rate lags power by 20 to 30 seconds. After a very hard effort, my HR drop will be even a little slower. However, power drops instantaneously with reduction in pedal force.

When we are warming up on the track, at 21-22 mph in a pace line at the relief line (middle of the track) my power swings from 90 watts on the straights to 220 watts in the turns due to the bowl shape of the track when I am sitting in the pace line. My HR stays about constant. As speed goes up, my HR goes up but power continues to swing in that range albeit higher. So I record a lot of z1 power on warmup. HR would record no z1.

I think you are doing great cycling and contribute a lot. If you had the data, you may have different comments. And some may consider a beating heart at a certain rate being in a zone even if pedal force is zero. YMMV
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Old 09-12-18, 08:37 AM
  #71  
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Until you have power, you really never realize how much time is spent not pedaling/not making power. These are both solo, but indicative of how much time is spent benefiting from the fact that a bicycle, you know... rolls.

Here's an hour, pretty quick, but an intersection here and there, or some proper turns, and this is about as close as I can get to "pedaling the entire time."



This is much more common. In any ride of 2+ hour duration, I'm just along for the ride about 25% of the time.



I looked up the final stage of the annual Bicycle Classic here, and on a 100-mile road race-- with 7,000ft of climbing-- where they average 22-23mph, riders are typically pedaling 77-83% of the time, from the sampling I looked at.
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Old 09-12-18, 08:37 AM
  #72  
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I like the drop/regroup rides vs. some of the race sim rides since those can be dangerous if egos start running signs into cars. As it's fair from a weight standpoint that us skinny guys can pull gaps on hills and riding solo or in tiny groups isn't as fun.

But, I notice a lot of folks who otherwise wouldn't be able to keep up on these rides skip turns and finish with the group to post "look at my avg speed".

To keep pace, a lot of the time in these groups I see people taking 30 seconds and tapping their butt to pull off. C'mon man. If the group ride is 75 min and three of us pulled each 10 minutes, that's crap. And annoying.

Knowing we can drop people easier, we do feel it's fair to take our turns. But it gets a bit silly sometimes. You can either keep up or you can't.
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Old 09-12-18, 08:51 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
To keep pace, a lot of the time in these groups I see people taking 30 seconds and tapping their butt to pull off.
That sounds perfectly reasonable.
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Old 09-12-18, 08:55 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
... tapping their butt to pull off.
That word. I don’t think it means what you think it means.
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Old 09-12-18, 08:59 AM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by kbarch View Post
I'd qualify that by saying that, for some people, even sitting in the middle of a fast paceline is real work, and only stops and the longest descents allow any coasting. I think a rider has to be pretty fit for a sprited ride to have as much Z1 time as you experience, but I'm sure you're right in principle; there's no way anyone's heart rate drops off as fast as ones watts.
He's talking about z1 power, not z1 HR - that's not apples and oranges, it's apples and bowling balls.
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