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Group Rides with the Big Boys

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Group Rides with the Big Boys

Old 09-12-18, 09:00 AM
  #76  
TimothyH
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Even if I can't pull as much as others, I still think it is important to show up to faster rides once in a while as a means to get faster.

People get annoyed when a rider gets on point and lets the pace drop. If 30 seconds is all someone has and they give it, then they have given everything. Its better to do what you can and contribute something rather than be a hindrance.

I love when a slower rider shows up and works his ass off, even if he can't do as much as everyone else.


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Last edited by TimothyH; 09-12-18 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 09-12-18, 09:01 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by memebag View Post
No power data, but I don't coast. I pedal.
Check back in when you have power - you'll see that you're wrong and that you spend a lot of time in z1.
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Old 09-12-18, 09:04 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
I like the drop/regroup rides vs. some of the race sim rides since those can be dangerous if egos start running signs into cars. As it's fair from a weight standpoint that us skinny guys can pull gaps on hills and riding solo or in tiny groups isn't as fun.

But, I notice a lot of folks who otherwise wouldn't be able to keep up on these rides skip turns and finish with the group to post "look at my avg speed".

To keep pace, a lot of the time in these groups I see people taking 30 seconds and tapping their butt to pull off. C'mon man. If the group ride is 75 min and three of us pulled each 10 minutes, that's crap. And annoying.

Knowing we can drop people easier, we do feel it's fair to take our turns. But it gets a bit silly sometimes. You can either keep up or you can't.
Are you saying that you pull for 10 minutes at a time? That would be a hell of a lot more silly than pulling for 30 seconds at a time.
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Old 09-12-18, 09:11 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Check back in when you have power - you'll see that you're wrong and that you spend a lot of time in z1.
You can define "coast" any way you like. I define it as "not pedaling". The hub makes that noise when I coast.
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Old 09-12-18, 09:19 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by memebag View Post
You can define "coast" any way you like. I define it as "not pedaling". The hub makes that noise when I coast.
You are absolutely not pedaling as much as you think you are, unless you're doing 5-mile long straight shots up and down an uninterrupted bike path. Getting to less than 10% non-pedaling time takes a focused effort, and if on open roads, a fair amount of luck. On even a spirited group ride, I doubt riders are pedaling even 75% of the time. Pro racers, in races, are producing little or no power (on average) 20% of the time.
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Old 09-12-18, 09:20 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by memebag View Post
You can define "coast" any way you like. I define it as "not pedaling". The hub makes that noise when I coast.
And you can move the goal posts all you'd like, but the context here is resting -

Originally Posted by memebag View Post
Is that supposed to be a joke? People who ride long distances build stamina. They do that by not stopping to rest (or regroup).
It's pretty easy to turn the pedals over without any meaningful output, but by all means, avoid power meters so that you don't shatter your illusions/delusions.
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Old 09-12-18, 09:44 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
You are absolutely not pedaling as much as you think you are, unless you're doing 5-mile long straight shots up and down an uninterrupted bike path.
We do that, and longer. How do you know how much I am pedaling?

Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
And you can move the goal posts all you'd like, but the context here is resting -



It's pretty easy to turn the pedals over without any meaningful output, but by all means, avoid power meters so that you don't shatter your illusions/delusions.
Those are unrelated quotes. One is about stopping to rest/regroup. The other is about coasting. If they are goal posts then they are for different sports.

I'm not avoiding a power meter. If one comes my way I will definitely grab it.
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Old 09-12-18, 09:50 AM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by memebag View Post
We do that, and longer. How do you know how much I am pedaling?
So post up your cadence data.

Originally Posted by memebag View Post
Those are unrelated quotes. One is about stopping to rest/regroup. The other is about coasting. If they are goal posts then they are for different sports.
They're completely unrelated although they're all within the same a back-and-forth exchange? Okay, cool.

Originally Posted by memebag View Post
I'm not avoiding a power meter. If one comes my way I will definitely grab it.
Cool - when you do, it'll confirm that you're wrong. Or do you think that it's just a coincidence that everyone with a PM is on the same side of the conversation?
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Old 09-12-18, 09:50 AM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by memebag View Post
You can define "coast" any way you like. I define it as "not pedaling". The hub makes that noise when I coast.
Did you just mention a noisy hub? That is one reason NOT to do group rides with the big boys. Life is too short to have to listen to buzzy hubs. I get enough of that when I am running the Weedeater.
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Old 09-12-18, 09:56 AM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
So post up your cadence data.
No cadence data, either.

Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
They're completely unrelated although they're all within the same a back-and-forth exchange? Okay, cool.

Cool - when you do, it'll confirm that you're wrong. Or do you think that it's just a coincidence that everyone with a PM is on the same side of the conversation?
You'll confirm that I'm wrong when I say I'm pedaling and not coasting? Are you OK?

There's no "side" of the conversation about how I ride my bike. There's my observations and anyone else's guesses.

Originally Posted by seypat View Post
Did you just mention a noisy hub? That is one reason NOT to do group rides with the big boys. Life is too short to have to listen to buzzy hubs. I get enough of that when I am running the Weedeater.
Not a buzz, that noise when you coast. From the thingies inside it.
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Old 09-12-18, 10:02 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by memebag View Post
No cadence data, either.
So you've go no data for coasting, soft pedaling or meaningful output, yet you're convinced that you're right? Cool.

Originally Posted by memebag View Post
You'll confirm that I'm wrong when I say I'm pedaling and not coasting? Are you OK?
You either have comprehension issue or poor eyesight - "it'll confirm" It. Will. Not me. It.

Anywho - ya borin', so I'll bow out. Cheers.
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Old 09-12-18, 10:10 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
So you've go no data for coasting, soft pedaling or meaningful output, yet you're convinced that you're right? Cool.
All I have are my memories. I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
You either have comprehension issue or poor eyesight - "it'll confirm" It. Will. Not me. It.

Anywho - ya borin', so I'll bow out. Cheers.
OK.

So back to stamina ...

It sounds like rubiksoval is saying riders don't build stamina by avoiding stops. Is that really so?
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Old 09-12-18, 10:19 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by memebag View Post
No cadence data, either.



You'll confirm that I'm wrong when I say I'm pedaling and not coasting? Are you OK?

There's no "side" of the conversation about how I ride my bike. There's my observations and anyone else's guesses.



Not a buzz, that noise when you coast. From the thingies inside it.
That's a buzzy hub. You roll on someone allergic to bee stings with that buzzing, they might have a heart attack.
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Old 09-12-18, 10:26 AM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
That's a buzzy hub. You roll on someone allergic to bee stings with that buzzing, they might have a heart attack.
It doesn't sound anything like a bee. Unless the bee was wearing flip flops or something.
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Old 09-12-18, 10:28 AM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by memebag View Post
All I have are my memories. I could be wrong.


OK.

So back to stamina ...

It sounds like rubiksoval is saying riders don't build stamina by avoiding stops. Is that really so?
Sports training through the years has changed so much. Why do you think we have extremely detailed sports specific training plans in the first place. Why do you think there are zones, recovery rides, rest days, etc, etc, etc now? The old days of going hard as long as you can, withholding water/breaks to "make em tough and conditioned" and all the rest of that crap are not good for the overall health of an athlete.
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Old 09-12-18, 11:01 AM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by memebag View Post
All I have are my memories. I could be wrong.


OK.

So back to stamina ...

It sounds like rubiksoval is saying riders don't build stamina by avoiding stops. Is that really so?
That's not exactly what he's saying. He's saying that a short rest to regroup, won't affect stamina. At least not any more than the "rest" one gets when riding in a group.
What length rides are we talking here anyway? 30 mi, 50 mi, 100 mi?
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Old 09-12-18, 11:09 AM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
I absolutely guarantee you your power was in z1 for way, way more than 10%. Probably higher than 30% on a group ride with a course profile like that.

Another example of where heart rate falls short. You just don't realize how easy you pedal a lot of the time without a power meter. It's an eye-opener.

ETA: I noticed you said you coasted for 12% of the ride. So yeah, if coasting amounted to that much, then easy/soft pedaling/z1 will include that and be much higher.
Yay, conversation! Tee, hee. Another way to look at it is - do you want to measure the mechanical stress on your bicycle, which is what power measures, or do you want to measure physiological stress on the human component of the package? As @Hermes and basically everyone else points out, HR lags power. But on the other end, HR overruns power when it drops off, so it comes out more even as a measurement. Also, as he points out, HR will be more even than power in rolling terrain, which also means HR will show less Z4 & Z5 than power. My stoker and I see that every ride because we both monitor HR. So her HR lags mine because she doesn't power up until she sees my HR move, and then on the other end, I have to soft pedal a bit while her HR comes back down after an effort. So team power is less up and down than the HR of either of us shows. Taking that into account is one of the tricks of captaining. I do wish we had pedal PMs, but I'm not going to spend $2000 on them, considering the short time of amortization still available.

Even descending and not pedaling, my HR will be mostly Z2 simply from the effort of operating the bike, movement, braking, weight shifts into the pedals, tucking, standing on the rough bits and taking it in our legs, all that sort of stuff. Zero power, though, as you point out. Your 30% is probably pretty accurate. Drafting with a tandem is pretty much impossible. Most singles don't know how to pull a tandem. Anyway, the above excuses are some of the reasons I choose to do most of my training on the tandem. More of you tough guys ought to go out with your wives on one. It's harder. @Hermes & wife don't count. The rest of the data:
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Old 09-12-18, 11:16 AM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Are you saying that you pull for 10 minutes at a time? That would be a hell of a lot more silly than pulling for 30 seconds at a time.
I total 10 min and the other two guys total 10 min. So, if you exclude hills where the line doesn't matter, three of us end up pulling for half of a 75min group ride.

We try to take smaller turns and cycle through, but ends up more and more people start skipping turns and taking shorter ones so that we end up on front a lot. I think a lot of people can "hang" in an A group ride, but can't lead.

If we hold 22ish mph up a false flat, the fitter guys are right on the wheels but usually we'll start to gap about 5 to 6 people who can't do the power even in the draft up a little rise.

The road race I did, people want to conserve energy so actually found that better.
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Old 09-12-18, 11:21 AM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by memebag View Post
All I have are my memories. I could be wrong.


OK.

So back to stamina ...

It sounds like rubiksoval is saying riders don't build stamina by avoiding stops. Is that really so?
Yes, he's correct. One learns to eat and drink, but peak effort will drop off, and lots of peak effort is the best way to build endurance. Old bro science was that one did endurance rides to build endurance. New science is that one does sufficient endurance work to be able to do the interval work necessary to build real long distance endurance. I've done fast 400k rides with no training ride longer than 60 miles with a pee stop and a coffee stop in the middle. Brevets are ridden at moderate effort, with controls about 50 miles apart, so one does have to know how to eat and drink to do them, but that's really the only reason for doing long rides with few stops. Once one learns that, it's not terribly useful. An SR series is normally 200k, 300k, 400k, 600k. What one learns from that is pacing and good saddle practices.
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Old 09-12-18, 11:38 AM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
Sports training through the years has changed so much. Why do you think we have extremely detailed sports specific training plans in the first place. Why do you think there are zones, recovery rides, rest days, etc, etc, etc now? The old days of going hard as long as you can, withholding water/breaks to "make em tough and conditioned" and all the rest of that crap are not good for the overall health of an athlete.
I guess I ride with people from the old days? They skip rest stops to build their ability to skip rest stops. The same as they ride longer to build their ability to ride longer.

Originally Posted by mvnsnd View Post
That's not exactly what he's saying. He's saying that a short rest to regroup, won't affect stamina. At least not any more than the "rest" one gets when riding in a group.
What length rides are we talking here anyway? 30 mi, 50 mi, 100 mi?
No, I'm talking about his first post:

Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
It's weird, now, to see a couple of groups (not that many, but still a couple) that have no regrouping spots and you're on your own as soon as you're dropped.

Dumb and misses the point of a group ride.
He isn't talking about short rests. He's talking about "regrouping spots". Later he describes regrouping at these spots after cashes and mechanicals.

Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Yes, he's correct. One learns to eat and drink, but peak effort will drop off, and lots of peak effort is the best way to build endurance. Old bro science was that one did endurance rides to build endurance. New science is that one does sufficient endurance work to be able to do the interval work necessary to build real long distance endurance.
Maybe this new science doesn't apply to me? I can do a bunch of 30 mile rides, but I'm not ready for a 100 mile ride until I work up to some 60 and 70 mile rides. And I can't skip rest stops on the 100 mile ride if I stop frequently on the 70 mile ride.
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Old 09-12-18, 11:45 AM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by memebag View Post
Maybe this new science doesn't apply to me? I can do a bunch of 30 mile rides, but I'm not ready for a 100 mile ride until I work up to some 60 and 70 mile rides. And I can't skip rest stops on the 100 mile ride if I stop frequently on the 70 mile ride.
The thing is your data isn't quantitative at all. I bet I could train you to ride 100 miles faster than you've ever ridden them before using solely <20 mile rides. Using distance alone and not skipping rest stops as a measure of your fitness is a pretty poor metric.
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Old 09-12-18, 11:52 AM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by memebag View Post
I guess I ride with people from the old days? They skip rest stops to build their ability to skip rest stops. The same as they ride longer to build their ability to ride longer.
Must be real old. I started cycling over 30 years ago and even then we knew better.
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Old 09-12-18, 11:58 AM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
Even if I can't pull as much as others, I still think it is important to show up to faster rides once in a while as a means to get faster.

People get annoyed when a rider gets on point and lets the pace drop. If 30 seconds is all someone has and they give it, then they have given everything. Its better to do what you can and contribute something rather than be a hindrance.

I love when a slower rider shows up and works his ass off, even if he can't do as much as everyone else.


-Tim-
I am more of a speed guy physiology, but do like going out riding with riders who are more enduros. I do a couple things to survive and still get invited back. When the pace really heats up, I take short pulls. When I start getting tired, I let the group know I am sitting on and stop pulling through. On climbs I know I am going to be dropped on, I try to stay out of the way of everyone else by letting riders by at the base of the climb. The guys I ride with will slow up at the top and wait or ride back down, so I figure stay out of the way and let them suck it out. I have found as long as your riding safe and not getting in the way, faster people don’t mind it when are slower.

Last edited by colnago62; 09-12-18 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 09-12-18, 12:01 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by memebag View Post
No power data, but I don't coast. I pedal.

Stamina is built by going longer without resting. Are you really saying that isn't how athletes build stamina?



Then let's recap and maybe I will understand what you are saying.

You said group riders were dumb if they don't stop to regroup and wait for riders who have been dropped, had mechanicals or crashed.
I said some group riders build stamina by not stopping to regroup (and implied they aren't dumb).
You said stopping 2 to 3 minutes had no effect on stamina.
I thought you meant 2 to 3 minutes was long enough to wait on riders who have been dropped, had mechanicals or crashed.
If that isn't what you meant, what did you mean?
I'm sure you think you don't coast or softpedal. But you do. Get a pm. It'll quickly show you what's up.

Endurance is built by increasing training load. You can do that in any number of ways. Stopping isn't going to affect it. It's not that difficult to go ride 100 miles if youre riding 200 miles a week, even if you've never done over 60 or 70. How is that possible?

I said leaving people for dead on a group ride was dumb, with an aside concerning crashed riders as a response to someone else's post.

Your entire notion of what builds fitness is off base, so whatever argument you're trying to build from that is also very off base.
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Old 09-12-18, 12:15 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post

To keep pace, a lot of the time in these groups I see people taking 30 seconds and tapping their butt to pull off. C'mon man. If the group ride is 75 min and three of us pulled each 10 minutes, that's crap. And annoying.

Knowing we can drop people easier, we do feel it's fair to take our turns. But it gets a bit silly sometimes. You can either keep up or you can't.
That's how you ride a paceline. Keep the pace up with short pulls. They're doing it right. Why are you anmoyed about that?

10 min pulls isn't a paceline. It's just you riding and other people drafting. Barely even constitutes a group ride at that point. Might as well ride solo.

You don't ride with people that race much, do you? Flip that last sentiment around for a second.
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