TimothyH

Even if I can't pull as much as others, I still think it is important to show up to faster rides once in a while as a means to get faster.

People get annoyed when a rider gets on point and lets the pace drop. If 30 seconds is all someone has and they give it, then they have given everything. Its better to do what you can and contribute something rather than be a hindrance.

I love when a slower rider shows up and works his ass off, even if he can't do as much as everyone else.


-Tim-

WhyFi

Check back in when you have power - you'll see that you're wrong and that you spend a lot of time in z1.

WhyFi

Are you saying that you pull for 10 minutes at a time? That would be a hell of a lot more silly than pulling for 30 seconds at a time.

memebag

You can define "coast" any way you like. I define it as "not pedaling". The hub makes that noise when I coast.

DrIsotope

You are absolutely not pedaling as much as you think you are, unless you're doing 5-mile long straight shots up and down an uninterrupted bike path. Getting to less than 10% non-pedaling time takes a focused effort, and if on open roads, a fair amount of luck. On even a spirited group ride, I doubt riders are pedaling even 75% of the time. Pro racers, in races, are producing little or no power (on average) 20% of the time.

WhyFi

And you can move the goal posts all you'd like, but the context here is resting -

It's pretty easy to turn the pedals over without any meaningful output, but by all means, avoid power meters so that you don't shatter your illusions/delusions.

memebag

We do that, and longer. How do you know how much I am pedaling?

Those are unrelated quotes. One is about stopping to rest/regroup. The other is about coasting. If they are goal posts then they are for different sports.

I'm not avoiding a power meter. If one comes my way I will definitely grab it.

WhyFi

So post up your cadence data.

They're completely unrelated although they're all within the same a back-and-forth exchange? Okay, cool.

Cool - when you do, it'll confirm that you're wrong. Or do you think that it's just a coincidence that everyone with a PM is on the same side of the conversation?

seypat

Did you just mention a noisy hub? That is one reason NOT to do group rides with the big boys. Life is too short to have to listen to buzzy hubs. I get enough of that when I am running the Weedeater.

memebag

No cadence data, either.

You'll confirm that I'm wrong when I say I'm pedaling and not coasting? Are you OK?

There's no "side" of the conversation about how I ride my bike. There's my observations and anyone else's guesses.

Not a buzz, that noise when you coast. From the thingies inside it.

WhyFi

So you've go no data for coasting, soft pedaling or meaningful output, yet you're convinced that you're right? Cool.

You either have comprehension issue or poor eyesight - "it'll confirm" It. Will. Not me. It.

Anywho - ya borin', so I'll bow out. Cheers.

memebag

All I have are my memories. I could be wrong.

OK.

So back to stamina ...

It sounds like rubiksoval is saying riders don't build stamina by avoiding stops. Is that really so?

seypat

That's a buzzy hub. You roll on someone allergic to bee stings with that buzzing, they might have a heart attack.

memebag

It doesn't sound anything like a bee. Unless the bee was wearing flip flops or something.

seypat

Sports training through the years has changed so much. Why do you think we have extremely detailed sports specific training plans in the first place. Why do you think there are zones, recovery rides, rest days, etc, etc, etc now? The old days of going hard as long as you can, withholding water/breaks to "make em tough and conditioned" and all the rest of that crap are not good for the overall health of an athlete.

mvnsnd

That's not exactly what he's saying. He's saying that a short rest to regroup, won't affect stamina. At least not any more than the "rest" one gets when riding in a group.
What length rides are we talking here anyway? 30 mi, 50 mi, 100 mi?

Carbonfiberboy 

Yay, conversation! Tee, hee. Another way to look at it is - do you want to measure the mechanical stress on your bicycle, which is what power measures, or do you want to measure physiological stress on the human component of the package? As @Hermes and basically everyone else points out, HR lags power. But on the other end, HR overruns power when it drops off, so it comes out more even as a measurement. Also, as he points out, HR will be more even than power in rolling terrain, which also means HR will show less Z4 & Z5 than power. My stoker and I see that every ride because we both monitor HR. So her HR lags mine because she doesn't power up until she sees my HR move, and then on the other end, I have to soft pedal a bit while her HR comes back down after an effort. So team power is less up and down than the HR of either of us shows. Taking that into account is one of the tricks of captaining. I do wish we had pedal PMs, but I'm not going to spend $2000 on them, considering the short time of amortization still available.

Even descending and not pedaling, my HR will be mostly Z2 simply from the effort of operating the bike, movement, braking, weight shifts into the pedals, tucking, standing on the rough bits and taking it in our legs, all that sort of stuff. Zero power, though, as you point out. Your 30% is probably pretty accurate. Drafting with a tandem is pretty much impossible. Most singles don't know how to pull a tandem. Anyway, the above excuses are some of the reasons I choose to do most of my training on the tandem. More of you tough guys ought to go out with your wives on one. It's harder. @Hermes & wife don't count. The rest of the data:

burnthesheep

I total 10 min and the other two guys total 10 min. So, if you exclude hills where the line doesn't matter, three of us end up pulling for half of a 75min group ride.

We try to take smaller turns and cycle through, but ends up more and more people start skipping turns and taking shorter ones so that we end up on front a lot. I think a lot of people can "hang" in an A group ride, but can't lead.

If we hold 22ish mph up a false flat, the fitter guys are right on the wheels but usually we'll start to gap about 5 to 6 people who can't do the power even in the draft up a little rise.

The road race I did, people want to conserve energy so actually found that better.

Carbonfiberboy 

Yes, he's correct. One learns to eat and drink, but peak effort will drop off, and lots of peak effort is the best way to build endurance. Old bro science was that one did endurance rides to build endurance. New science is that one does sufficient endurance work to be able to do the interval work necessary to build real long distance endurance. I've done fast 400k rides with no training ride longer than 60 miles with a pee stop and a coffee stop in the middle. Brevets are ridden at moderate effort, with controls about 50 miles apart, so one does have to know how to eat and drink to do them, but that's really the only reason for doing long rides with few stops. Once one learns that, it's not terribly useful. An SR series is normally 200k, 300k, 400k, 600k. What one learns from that is pacing and good saddle practices.

memebag

I guess I ride with people from the old days? They skip rest stops to build their ability to skip rest stops. The same as they ride longer to build their ability to ride longer.

No, I'm talking about his first post:

He isn't talking about short rests. He's talking about "regrouping spots". Later he describes regrouping at these spots after cashes and mechanicals.

Maybe this new science doesn't apply to me? I can do a bunch of 30 mile rides, but I'm not ready for a 100 mile ride until I work up to some 60 and 70 mile rides. And I can't skip rest stops on the 100 mile ride if I stop frequently on the 70 mile ride.

redlude97

The thing is your data isn't quantitative at all. I bet I could train you to ride 100 miles faster than you've ever ridden them before using solely <20 mile rides. Using distance alone and not skipping rest stops as a measure of your fitness is a pretty poor metric.

asgelle

colnago62

rubiksoval

I'm sure you think you don't coast or softpedal. But you do. Get a pm. It'll quickly show you what's up.

Endurance is built by increasing training load. You can do that in any number of ways. Stopping isn't going to affect it. It's not that difficult to go ride 100 miles if youre riding 200 miles a week, even if you've never done over 60 or 70. How is that possible?

I said leaving people for dead on a group ride was dumb, with an aside concerning crashed riders as a response to someone else's post.

Your entire notion of what builds fitness is off base, so whatever argument you're trying to build from that is also very off base.

rubiksoval

That's how you ride a paceline. Keep the pace up with short pulls. They're doing it right. Why are you anmoyed about that?

10 min pulls isn't a paceline. It's just you riding and other people drafting. Barely even constitutes a group ride at that point. Might as well ride solo.

You don't ride with people that race much, do you? Flip that last sentiment around for a second.