Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Why do so many road rides favor flatter routes?

Notices
Road Cycling ďIt is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.Ē -- Ernest Hemingway

Why do so many road rides favor flatter routes?

Old 09-19-18, 11:45 AM
  #26  
HTupolev
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,962
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1814 Post(s)
Liked 1,001 Times in 493 Posts
Originally Posted by Abe_Froman View Post
So, the idea of a hill is completely foreign to me. Why does everybody say hills are hard...flats are easy? I mean, you know you can pedal harder on flat ground anytime you want, right?
Many road bikes are geared inappropriately for their riders and terrain.
HTupolev is offline  
Old 09-19-18, 11:49 AM
  #27  
burnthesheep
Newbie racer
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2,797

Bikes: Propel, red is faster

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1255 Post(s)
Liked 1,173 Times in 733 Posts
Iíve done Mitchell twice, once during the Assaults. Iím totally fine with that speed. Lol. And that isnít fast after the 70 miles beforehand.

Its a fast group, plenty of nice and fast folks. Lots of short hard efforts and recoveries. Just that I like variety. Thatís all. Longest hill is maybe 90 seconds on that ride.

Maybe I need to find a training buddy. Or buy the significant other an e-bike.

burnthesheep is offline  
Old 09-19-18, 12:07 PM
  #28  
Abe_Froman
Senior Member
 
Abe_Froman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,566

Bikes: Marin Four Corners, 1960's Schwinn Racer in middle of restoration, mid 70s Motobecane Grand Touring, various other heaps.

Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9346 Post(s)
Liked 56 Times in 50 Posts
Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
Many road bikes are geared inappropriately for their riders and terrain.
Lol, well yea, I guess if somebody is trying to push a 42/21 combo up a mountain, it might not be the easiest thing .
Abe_Froman is offline  
Old 09-19-18, 12:33 PM
  #29  
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 13,504

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 143 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6538 Post(s)
Liked 1,646 Times in 903 Posts
Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
And as you mentioned, group rides have a tough time on hills unless everyone is of the same fitness level-- lots of regrouping even if the "climbs" are a few minutes long. If the routes are in that 30-40ft/mi avg, the 130lb guys and the 200lb guys can ride together.

Small guys can take advantage of the draft from the big guys on the flats-- little guys are zero help to big guys going up hills.
Originally Posted by Dan333SP View Post
Yes, yes, and yes. Groups work on flat ground because drafting allows riders of varying weights/fitness levels to stay together as it's sooo much easier to sit in the back of a group going fast on the flat than it is to climb, because you can't hide and big dudes are going to get dropped no matter how much power they can put out. I agree with you, FWIW. I like riding uphill even though I'm terrible at it. I just make sure I do my hilly rides solo or with someone who is as close to my fitness level as I can find.
Most folks I know like to go FAST in groups …. And even the guys who can hang on the flat split up on the climbs. We have a couple big guys (I only say “fat guys” when speaking about myself) who are Really fit and really fast on the flat …. But someone who carried 80 lbs less weight is still going to be dropping them by the time the last hills roll around.

Originally Posted by Abe_Froman View Post
So, the idea of a hill is completely foreign to me. Why does everybody say hills are hard...flats are easy? I mean, you know you can pedal harder on flat ground anytime you want, right?
Yeah, that’s funny. If you like climbing, power to you … but if you think it is easy to ride at 40 mph solo on the road, go win the world TT championship.

And no, I am not suggesting that any local groups ride that fast … but the idea that riding on the flat is easy is actually the idea that some riders are lazy.

And Pro Tip: you can swap in different cranks, or in many cases, just different chain rings. Yea, you have to readjust the front derailleur … but once you get the necessary degrees in Rocket Science and Brain Surgery ….

I don’t mind going fast in a paceline---it has its own appeal. But climbing is lonely---unless someone faster decides to ride along and offer encouragement.

I don’t mind climbing alone, either … but it isn’t really a “group ride” at that point.

Originally Posted by ksryder View Post
Group rides in my neck of the woods (that don't have fixed routes) are determined by which direction the wind is blowing. ... just endless rollers, but we have lots and lots of wind, which can cause its own set of problems in a group ride. However, the group ride tends to stick together because no one wants to be alone in the wind.

I was somewhat surprised when a transplant from back east told me that he had never even considered the wind direction as a factor in route choice before moving to Kansas.
In 2015 i did a cross-country tour and coming from west to east in Kansas was a revelation.

First, i had pictured it as part of the plains. Second, i had no idea about the wind. There were some hard, hard miles there.
Maelochs is offline  
Old 09-19-18, 12:43 PM
  #30  
caloso
Senior Member
 
caloso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,432

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur

Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2773 Post(s)
Liked 2,564 Times in 1,183 Posts
Hills means regrouping. The skinny climbers don't like sitting around waiting and the fat roleurs don't like being waited for.
caloso is offline  
Old 09-19-18, 12:51 PM
  #31  
HTupolev
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,962
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1814 Post(s)
Liked 1,001 Times in 493 Posts
Originally Posted by Abe_Froman View Post
Lol, well yea, I guess if somebody is trying to push a 42/21 combo up a mountain, it might not be the easiest thing .
I'm not just referring to vintage stuff, or mountains.

Take someone with an FTP of 3W/kg: an unimpressive number in a racing-oriented discussion, but not low if we're discussing cyclists in general. Stick them on a typical modern road bike with 700x25 tires and a 34-28 low gear. Put them at the bottom of an 8% hill, steep but not outside of the bounds of reason (and lots of non-8% hills have 8% stretches).
They'll be doing around 70rpm at threshold. That's not a situation that'll force this rider off the bike to walk, but they won't really have an option for taking the hill restfully either.
HTupolev is offline  
Old 09-19-18, 12:54 PM
  #32  
burnthesheep
Newbie racer
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2,797

Bikes: Propel, red is faster

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1255 Post(s)
Liked 1,173 Times in 733 Posts
I also had an idea of almost a kind of weekly "dirty dozen" hill kind of ride. Chill in between the hills going slow. Then hammer your hill. Or skip the hill and wait at the bottom. Whatever.

Maybe not 13 hills to go up each week, but several. Talk and ride easy between each one and have everyone bite off what they want to chew on the hills. Or not do a hill and take a skip and watch others take a stab at it.

Then grab some snacks and a beer afterwards.
burnthesheep is offline  
Old 09-19-18, 02:23 PM
  #33  
Bomb Komodo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 287
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 72 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Abe_Froman View Post
So, the idea of a hill is completely foreign to me. Why does everybody say hills are hard...flats are easy? I mean, you know you can pedal harder on flat ground anytime you want, right?
I ride flats because thats what it is here. The wind can be very tough though. I have ridden with guys who come visit and normally ride in the mountains, and they are usually not prepared for the continued speed that groups ride at here. Thatís the standard comment I get. Guys here ride hard and fast for hours at a time. Many come from Latin America and are used to the climbing too. I really want to do some climbing, just as a change of pace. We have some really good places to train for those types of mountain rides, but I cant give too much first hand comparison. Just going by what I here from guys who hop into our group rides and get gassed.
Bomb Komodo is offline  
Old 09-19-18, 03:11 PM
  #34  
Jon T
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: West Orange County, CA
Posts: 1,113

Bikes: '84 Peugeot PH10LE

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 394 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 49 Times in 35 Posts
Because of age and health conditions. 40-50 years ago the terrain mattered a whole lot less.
Jon
Jon T is offline  
Old 09-19-18, 03:46 PM
  #35  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 22,255
Mentioned: 79 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15918 Post(s)
Liked 7,523 Times in 4,195 Posts
Originally Posted by Abe_Froman View Post
So, the idea of a hill is completely foreign to me. Why does everybody say hills are hard...flats are easy? I mean, you know you can pedal harder on flat ground anytime you want, right?
You can ride as hard as you want on the flat, but you can ease up, too. A lot of people will coast from time to time without realizing it. You can't do that going up a hill, hills keep you honest. Also, 50 rpm in 39x25 is unnecessarily fatiguing, but that's as low as a lot of road bikes go. You don't have to take hills at race pace, but there's only so much you can slow down before you fall over.

Hurricane Ridge Road goes from 0' to 5,240' over the course of 17 miles. What would be the flat ground equivalent?
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Old 09-19-18, 03:54 PM
  #36  
Dan333SP
Serious Cyclist
 
Dan333SP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: RVA
Posts: 9,259

Bikes: 2013 Madone 3.1

Mentioned: 97 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5687 Post(s)
Liked 197 Times in 83 Posts
Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
You can ride as hard as you want on the flat, but you can ease up, too. A lot of people will coast from time to time without realizing it. You can't do that going up a hill, hills keep you honest. Also, 50 rpm in 39x25 is unnecessarily fatiguing, but that's as low as a lot of road bikes go
I'd say 34/28 is a far more common low gear than 39/25 for at least the last decade. I'd wager the majority of regularly ridden road bikes these days have compact gearing. Your point stands, though. Regardless of gearing, you have no choice but to HTFU on anything over 5-6%.
Dan333SP is offline  
Old 09-19-18, 04:44 PM
  #37  
HTupolev
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,962
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1814 Post(s)
Liked 1,001 Times in 493 Posts
Originally Posted by Dan333SP View Post
Regardless of gearing, you have no choice but to HTFU on anything over 5-6%.
I wouldn't say it's regardless of gearing at all. Gearing has a huge influence on what grades you can choose to low-effort on.
HTupolev is offline  
Old 09-19-18, 05:05 PM
  #38  
kbarch
Senior Member
 
kbarch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 4,286
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1096 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
I don't know that I've ever seen a group remain a fully cohesive group over the course of a mile-plus climb of 6% or more. One or two re-groups are tolerable, but beyond that, rides with a lot of elevation become sort of antithetical to the notion of group riding - unless that's the whole point. Sometimes you can get a handful of folks to join you for a "climb-a-thon." Set one up - you might find more interest than you expected, especially if its understood to be somewhat social.
kbarch is offline  
Old 09-19-18, 10:41 PM
  #39  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 17,862

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3112 Post(s)
Liked 1,025 Times in 777 Posts
Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
1- suggest routes to your local club. Then listen to feedback and adjust if needed.
2- 50' of climb per mile is about what I average here in Iowa and there is plenty of hill climbing and descending. Some routes are 55, some are 45. Its a pretty good general amount for groups because there are climbs that will still separate everyone, but not frequent enough that the separation is permanent.

Good luck on the 100' routes.
That's just what we do here in the PNW. Groups always shatter on the climbs, but then folks softpedal or wait at intersections for the regoup. It's no big deal. If your area has some elevation gain possibilities, it seems to me that it's up the ride leader(s) to create routes embracing same. I've done 100'/mile routes. They're not suitable for 99% of club riders and besides, they're not really good training, having too little recovery between climbs to allow one to go hard enough to have a strong training effect.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 09-20-18, 07:12 AM
  #40  
friday1970
Senior Member
 
friday1970's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Brighton, Michigan
Posts: 617

Bikes: Optima Baron LR, '14 Nishiki Maricopa,'87 Trek 330 Elance, '89 Miyata 1400, '85 Peugeot PGN10, '04 Fuji Ace, '06 Giant Rincon, '95 Giant Allegre, '83 Trek 620, '86 Schwinn High Sierra

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 206 Post(s)
Liked 134 Times in 90 Posts
Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
Now see folks, that is the level of quality BS-talking that keeps me coming back to this place. Chapeau.
As someone living in SE Michigan, we have some rolling terrain at best, where two old glaciers bumped up against each other and dumped some dirt (Hillsdale to Pontiac). But otherwise, it's mostly flat. So it is nice to have some long climbs as a change of pace, though I do them solo.
I've done 4 climbs so far (Whiteface, Roan Mtn, Gatlinsburg to Clingmans, and Mt Mitchell), and I have to admit. At a nice pace, it's relaxing with fantastic views along the way. And the way back down is simply something than cannot be matched here in Michigan.

But to the OP, I can imagine it's probably both about keeping the group together and seeing average speeds.
friday1970 is offline  
Old 09-20-18, 07:20 AM
  #41  
burnthesheep
Newbie racer
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2,797

Bikes: Propel, red is faster

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1255 Post(s)
Liked 1,173 Times in 733 Posts
I got no takers for the ride last night. Only 2300ft in 28 miles. Not that bad at all. There were a few miles of flatter rolling between the hills.

I'm waiting to repair the carbon roadie, so was on the CX bike with an easiest case of a 40t and 28t in the back. Avg cadence with 40/28 being easiest was still 88 rpm with some grinding and soft pedaling downhill. So it couldn't have been that difficult of a route.
burnthesheep is offline  
Old 09-20-18, 07:29 AM
  #42  
DrIsotope
Non omnino gravis
 
DrIsotope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: SoCal, USA!
Posts: 8,553

Bikes: Nekobasu, Pandicorn, Lakitu

Mentioned: 119 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4900 Post(s)
Liked 1,715 Times in 952 Posts
Originally Posted by Abe_Froman View Post
I looked up the highest and lowest point in my county. 950' and 580', 40 miles apart. So 370' of climbing over 40 miles, or 9.5'/mile is about the max I could expect around here, short of doing highway overpass repeats
I live at the base of Mt. San Gorgonio, the highest peak in Southern California. Riding from my driveway, it's 44 miles to Onyx summit, gaining almost 8,900ft of elevation. So 202ft/mi.

If I don't take the turn at HWY38, I can continue up Valley of the Falls drive, ending at the Vivian Creek Trailhead. 21 miles, 4,700ft. 224ft/mi.

And I will do a ride like that maybe once a month. Because for me, going real fast on flat ground is... fun. Out-and-back on the northern end of the Santa Ana river trail-- 50 miles, 1,000 feet of elevation change (200 on the way out, 800 on the way back.) An easy to figure 20ft/mi.
__________________
DrIsotope is offline  
Old 09-20-18, 08:20 AM
  #43  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 22,255
Mentioned: 79 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15918 Post(s)
Liked 7,523 Times in 4,195 Posts
Originally Posted by Abe_Froman View Post
So, the idea of a hill is completely foreign to me. Why does everybody say hills are hard...flats are easy? I mean, you know you can pedal harder on flat ground anytime you want, right?
Also, long climbs can be hard to dress for. When I did Slate Peak last year, it was t-shirt weather at the bottom of the ride, sunny and 65 F, but there was rhime (ice) covering the trees at the top.
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Old 09-20-18, 10:08 PM
  #44  
jamesdak 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Utah
Posts: 7,109

Bikes: Paletti,De Rosa Neo Pro,Pinarello Monviso,Duell Vienna,Giordana XL Super(2)Lemond Maillot Juane (2) & custom & Versailles,PDG Paramount,Serotta CSI,Fuji Opus III,Davidson Impulse,Pashley Guv'nor,Evans,Fishlips,Jan De Reus,Prologue TT,Y-Foil,Softride

Mentioned: 125 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1782 Post(s)
Liked 1,505 Times in 740 Posts
Originally Posted by Sojodave View Post
You can't go 10 miles without a climb in Utah
LOL, an exaggeration but yeah, we do have our hills out here. My after work ride is a out and back of around 27 miles with only around 380 feet ascending so....

But yeah I have an HC category climb that starts 1/2 mile from the house, Cat 1 about 10 miles away and two Cat 2 climbs closer than that.

But I like speed and putting in the miles to answer the OP. Climbing is just a different kind of workout.
__________________
Steel is real...and comfy.
jamesdak is offline  
Old 09-20-18, 10:16 PM
  #45  
jamesdak 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Utah
Posts: 7,109

Bikes: Paletti,De Rosa Neo Pro,Pinarello Monviso,Duell Vienna,Giordana XL Super(2)Lemond Maillot Juane (2) & custom & Versailles,PDG Paramount,Serotta CSI,Fuji Opus III,Davidson Impulse,Pashley Guv'nor,Evans,Fishlips,Jan De Reus,Prologue TT,Y-Foil,Softride

Mentioned: 125 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1782 Post(s)
Liked 1,505 Times in 740 Posts
Originally Posted by Abe_Froman View Post
Lol, well yea, I guess if somebody is trying to push a 42/21 combo up a mountain, it might not be the easiest thing .
LOL, I'm still dealing with an inner quad problem from an 8 mile Cat 2 climb riding my Opus III up it with a 42/22 combo. And I didn't use the 22, only the 19 keeping the 22 as a bailout. Thanks for reminding me of my stupidity.




Most climbs since then this summer I've opting for the Lemond with it's triple and a 30T small ring. Feels almost like cheating, LOL!


__________________
Steel is real...and comfy.
jamesdak is offline  
Old 09-21-18, 04:32 AM
  #46  
kbarch
Senior Member
 
kbarch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 4,286
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1096 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
I got no takers for the ride last night. Only 2300ft in 28 miles. Not that bad at all. There were a few miles of flatter rolling between the hills.
Sorry no takers, but midweek it's not surprising. I think it's clear that climbs are not a good way to bring people together. However, I'm pretty sure you're not the only one who enjoys them the way you do.

I've known little groups to get together to do repeats of shorter climbs, which is kind of ideal. Falling back and riding off the front aren't an issue. The most enthusiastic climbers might make a couple more passes than those who take a more leisurely approach or struggle more, but everyone will see each other here and there along the way. I think that kind of thing is key for climb-y group rides - knowing that the point isn't so much to ride together in a pace line, but just to be out there doing the same thing, together at the beginning and the end, and occasionally in the middle when conversation might actually be convenient (trying to carry on a conversation in a pace line is not such a great idea)

Speaking of hill repeats, the last time I rode with friends on a ride that netted more than 100'/mile was when I and a few others sort of visited a couple of other guys who were attempting an Alpine Repeat century (Alpine being a climb on a park road which, depending on where you start and end the measurements, is about a mile long and about 6.5%). Only one guy did the full 100 miles, and there were certainly a lot of other riders on the hill over the course of that marathon, but he was joined by at least half a dozen friends for parts of it (I only did the climb a dozen times).

Last edited by kbarch; 09-21-18 at 04:54 AM.
kbarch is offline  
Old 09-21-18, 01:00 PM
  #47  
Tycho Brahe 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Amateur Coachsurfer
Posts: 929
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 227 Post(s)
Liked 70 Times in 52 Posts
I would give up cycling if I could not do any climbing.
Tycho Brahe is offline  
Old 09-22-18, 09:51 AM
  #48  
jeffreythree
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: DFW
Posts: 272

Bikes: '90 Schwinn Traveler(retired), '61 Bottecchia, '86 RS Maxima, '17 Jamis Renegade Exile, '92 Trek 920

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 63 Post(s)
Liked 15 Times in 10 Posts
Not much climbing around these parts other than some rollers and short steep rises, but when I want to climb a bit more I just turn on elevation correction. Strava adds a solid 20-30 feet per mile to my Garmin's numbers. The local clubs don't visit the roads I ride very much sticking to the flatter, blander roads to the east.

Last edited by jeffreythree; 09-22-18 at 10:00 AM.
jeffreythree is offline  
Old 09-22-18, 11:18 AM
  #49  
DrIsotope
Non omnino gravis
 
DrIsotope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: SoCal, USA!
Posts: 8,553

Bikes: Nekobasu, Pandicorn, Lakitu

Mentioned: 119 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4900 Post(s)
Liked 1,715 Times in 952 Posts
I've gotten to where I'm just using elevation correction every ride. Did a ride with the wife this morning, she had about 685ft, I had 600ft. Elevation correction took me to 700ft.

My GPS units consistently under-report by at least 10%. Some rides correction adds as much as 25%-- the worst days are when I ride a route I've done a dozen times, and know exactly how much climbing I've done, and the GPS shows 500 or 600 feet less than the last time I did it.

So even if Strava is generous, at least it's consistent.
__________________
DrIsotope is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
bruce19
Road Cycling
27
05-29-18 07:05 PM
Shreck
Fifty Plus (50+)
16
08-28-11 08:45 PM
Looigi
Fifty Plus (50+)
50
03-25-11 06:49 PM
Adrianinkc
Road Cycling
27
08-25-10 05:28 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.