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Road tubeless safety and tips

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Road tubeless safety and tips

Old 11-05-18, 07:54 AM
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goose70
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Road tubeless safety and tips

I've read a lot about road tubeless, here and elsewhere. Many people swear by them, a few hate them but my main concern has been safety. My LBS has a couple of stories of tires blowing off the rim in the shop while being inflated, and five years ago a teammate had a tubeless blow off the front wheel during a crit. So, I've stayed with clinchers (primarily for training) and tubulars (primarily for racing).


But now I'm rethinking. My tubulars were wrecked in a crash last month and they were getting to be an expensive pain in the rear, anyway. My training wheels are Shimano RS81 "tubeless ready clinchers" and the carbon Hollowgram wheels on the new Evo I'm ordering will also be "tubeless ready." With the RS81s, putting the tire back on after a flat is, under the best of conditions, like armwrestling a guerilla; in cold weather, it's pretty much impossible on the roadside. I've read similar horror stories about the Hollowgram wheels. But since so many clinchers are now being built tubeless ready, it seems that my only choice is to ride clinchers where I might not be able to change out a flat, or bite the bullet and switch to tubeless.


This, at last, brings me to my questions: First, are you aware of certain race-worthy tubeless tires being more reliable than others (less chance of catastrophic blowout)? More generally, are there certain best practices to ensure a better seal on the tire? And finally, do any of you have tubeless experience on RS81s or Hollograms, in particular?


Thanks.
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Old 11-05-18, 08:59 AM
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Hi!

i donít have any experience with either of those wheels but I have been using road tubeless since 2013 and exclusively for the last couple years. Iíve had Bontrager wheels, i9 wheels, Eastonís (still in use), Yoeleoís, and most recently some Light Bicycle carbons.

im sure like any mass market items there are margins of error but I have never once had any type of blow out, burp, or massive deflation. Nor do I know if anyone but to be fair Iím about the only one in my group that uses them Lol (Iím also the only one in our group to have never had a single flat riding here in an area where we have at least one every other ride if not more in our group).

I do like to play with different tires and generally try a new model every time I need to change them. Race worthy wise, I really liked the Bontrager R3ís, atbthe time they were the lightest around and felt great on the road. Iím actually about to try the Specialized Turboís, pricey little suckers but I at least want to give them a shot.

for ease of roadside repair (not that Iíve had to), the new Schwalbe Pro One S TL Easy (I think) has been by far the easiest tire Iíve ever had to install and that includes normal clinchers. So far theyíve rolled really well and I have about 1500 miles on them. Recently Iíve felt like Iím not comfortable cornering on them but Iím not sure if itís due to my new wheels, the tires squaring a bit, or pressure. But they have enough nicks and cuts along with tread wear that makes me think itís time to change. Bought them through merlin at a great price as well and will probably get more once done with the Specialized unless those are so good as to make the purchase price worthy.

ive has good success with a few others, probably the longest wearing would be some Hutchisonís but I absolutely hated thenride quality.

good luck with your decision making, the nice thing is you have wheels ready to go so wear out your clinchers and then try some tubeless, worse off you donít like them and after wearing them out you just swap back! But in my case, Iím a convert fully for no other reason than lack of flats and maybe a bit of enhanced comfort.
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Old 11-05-18, 09:20 AM
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I was on tubeless for 2 yrs and ~10k miles, from 2013 to 2015. It was all good until Schwalbe made a bunch of Schwalbe Ones that would blow off the rim. If you go to Amazon, you could probably read the reviews under schwalbe one.

The fist time it took place while I was inflating the tire. It's like a small explosion, sealant all over my face, and my Shimano C24 front wheels were ruined (couldn't be trued anymore) after the incident.

The second time was in the middle of the ride. The tire generated a "big fart" and lost 40 psi.

That's it with tubeless and I switched back to clinchers.
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Old 11-05-18, 08:25 PM
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Few manufacturers want to pay the licensing fees to support a real standard, so they nod and wink with "2Bliss", "TLR", and whatever other undefined phrase is loosely identified with UST or Stan's, etc. So you never really know that a given tire will work with a wheel, and you never really know if the bead/lip interface will hold.

I use wheels and tires made by the same manufacturer, and prefer UST tires and wheels. The tolerances are tight enough that bead failures don't seem to be an issue. Specialized "2Bliss" seems to work well with their Roval wheels.

That does mean limiting tire/wheel choices and I'm sure many people disagree.
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Old 11-05-18, 08:48 PM
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Road tubeless wheels used:

Shimano WH6800
Shimano WH-RS500
Shimano WH-RS610
Kinlin XR31

Road tubeless tires used

Schwalbe One 700x28
Schwalbe PRO One 700x28
Hutchinson Fusion 3 700x25
Hutchinson Fusion 5 700x25
Giant Gavia SL 700x25
Giant Gavia Race1 700x25
Giant Gavia AC1 700x25

I've no complaints about any of the wheels or tires save for the original Schwalbe One, which would cut if you gave them a sharp glance. With the WH6800 and Gavia AC1, I hit a shadow-obscured pothole at ~30mph, effectively destroying the wheel (caved in a 2" section of the brake track) but not only did the tire not unseat, it didn't even burp or lose pressure. Tubeless tires blowing off is related to improper manufacture (exceedingly rare) and overinflation (all too common.) Most people run pressures far too high-- I'm a fair bit north of 200lbs and run 90psi in my rear 700x25.

Best advice I can give? Always use soapy water or other suitable solution when initially mounting tires, and stick to sealants that dry the fastest-- Orange Seal or Stan's Race. Don't overinflate. Burping a tire off of the bead is from significant underinflation, and blowing one off the bead is from severe overinflation. Mounted and aired properly, tire blow-off is essentially a non-issue.
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Old 11-05-18, 08:49 PM
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I have been riding schawalbe pro ones on HED rims for two years and they have been great. They mount easy, although it takes a bit of air pressure to get them to seal up when mounting for the first time so you cant just use a floor pump — I have an airshot cannister for that — but they ride nice and I have never had any issues with tires blowing off the rim. Mine are 25mm and I run the rear at about 85-90 psi, the front a bit lower. I have read that shimano rims can be a bear to mount tubeless on so that could be an issue for your RS81 rims.

Last edited by DOS; 11-05-18 at 08:53 PM.
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Old 11-06-18, 01:08 PM
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Well in what could only be considered as a karma event I blew a side wall this morning! Not sure what I hit but it was something while riding in a straight line. Big enough that no amount of sealant would help. Of course, I was in a group of people who were well-versed in my mantra of having never had a flat on tubeless! of course, I was in a group of people who were well-versed in my mantra of having never had a flat on tubeless! But as mentioned in my previous post these tires were due for replacement I guess I just waited one day too long. The roadside repair was of no issue whatsoever, I popped off the tire and rim put a but as mentioned in my previous post these tires were due for replacement I guess I just waited one day too long. The roadside repair was of no issue whatsoever, I popped off the tire and put a tube and boot, definitely messy but not a big deal frankly.

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Old 11-07-18, 11:46 AM
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Speaking as someone who has been on tubeless since '13 and has three sets of tubeless road wheels, I think a couple of points already mentioned above are worth reiterating.

First, tubeless are not particularly prone to blowing off the rim. It can be forced from severe overinflation, or it can happen when not using properly designated tubeless rims, and I suppose there are cases of defective rims and tires, but the design of tubeless rims, with their bead locking lip, is specifically to address tire retention in pressure loss situations, so that the tire does not come off the rim easily. Most tubeless tire/rim combos can be ridden down to stop safely after even a catastrophic cut causing sudden air loss.

Secondly, the ease of mounting a tubeless tire on a tubeless rim is a matter of the match between the two, and not a characteristic of either. In other words, some tires mount easily on some rims, and difficultly on others. As noted, there has been, until very recently, no open standard for tubeless, and the new-ish open standard, Road UST championed by Mavic, has not been widely adopted yet, so tire/rim matchmaking is still trial-and-error outside of the Mavic system.

Second, proper setup is very important, for example, using tape of the correct width and thickness can be crucial, and absolutely the difference between a nightmare experience and a great one. Similarly, valves which match the width and bed profile of the rims are important, and can impact both sealing and tire fit.

I've had both brilliant and difficult experiences. The original Schwalbe One and the later Pro One both went on and came off first generation American Classic Argent wheels easily by hand but needed an air compressor to seat; Schwalbe S One on AC Victory 30 rims was a wrestle; IRC Formula Pro RBCC on double taped (don't ask!) 2nd gen AC Argents were damn near impossible to mount or remove, but Hutchinson Fusion 5 Galactik 11-storm go on the same just fine, and do so with just a floor pump.

In short, it's neither necessarily easy nor necessarily difficult to get rolling on tubeless, and the use experience will simply reflect that setup. If you struggle to mount tires at home, they're going to be just as hard to handle in a repair situation on the road. My advice would be to test fit any tires before commiting to a ride on them, so just mount them up without sealant at home and see how it goes. If you have to send them back and try another pair, save yourself far greater headaches down the road and just do it immediately. You'll be tempted to feel relieved after struggling to get a tire on, but believe me, if you need to pull it out on the road, your heart will blacken with hatred, and you don't need that!

As for reccos, while I've not tried a whole bunch of different tubeless tires, the Schwalbe Pro One are super, super nice (for me, on my rides, on my roads, at my inflation pressures). The new Galactik 11 Storms are looking capable, too, but it's too early for me to say; I do find them narrow in 25c, too. I won't say anything bad out the IRC Formula Pro RBCC, but I took 2 cuts on two tires in 3 Spring rides, killing $180 worth of rubber, so I just didn't have the time to check them out fully. I don't think I'll bother them again, though.
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Old 11-11-18, 10:59 AM
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If you're not running tires over 28c, FORGET tubeless! There is a reason why true road tubeless has not taken off like mtb tubeless.
Ain't worth the hassle. Don't buy into all these supposed performance benefits of tubeless either. If you got dropped before, you'd still be dropped with tubeless. And puncture protection, yeah it'll work if the hole is small, but as the tire wears down the hole will open up again, then bye bye tubeless. Go latex tube instead. The good thing about latex is that if you do get a flat resulting from a small staples or thorn, Stans works excellent with latex tube and will seal it just as good as it does on a tubeless tire. I use latex tube and carry a small bottle of Stans.

but if you do decide to use tubeless for road, then yes you DO want a tight tire/rim fitting, because a loose fitting (ie, tire easy to mount) means more chances of tire burping and coming off the rim in a catastrophic flat.
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Old 11-11-18, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
Ain't worth the hassle.

but if you do decide to use tubeless for road, then yes you DO want a tight tire/rim fitting, because a loose fitting (ie, tire easy to mount) means more chances of tire burping and coming off the rim in a catastrophic flat.
Well the can be a hassle to set up as compared to regular clinchers, once set up, I have found them to be less hassle than clinchers. I haven’t had a flat in two years and eliminating pinch flat risk means being able to optimize pressure for best combo of rolling resistance and comfort. That equals better ride quality, which has been the main benefit for me. Also, While I agree that I could acheive the same rolling resistance using similar tires with latex tubes, they cost $10-15 per tube and finding them with removable valve cores can be a challenge.

As others have noted, burping, which is a risk when running super low pressure, is not an issue on road tubeless becuase of higher pressures, and in most cases blowing a tire off the rim is a function of over inflating. If you want to run 120-130psi (which you shouldn’t) then road tubeless is probably not for you.
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Old 11-11-18, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
If you're not running tires over 28c, FORGET tubeless! There is a reason why true road tubeless has not taken off like mtb tubeless.
Ain't worth the hassle. Don't buy into all these supposed performance benefits of tubeless either. If you got dropped before, you'd still be dropped with tubeless. And puncture protection, yeah it'll work if the hole is small, but as the tire wears down the hole will open up again, then bye bye tubeless. Go latex tube instead. The good thing about latex is that if you do get a flat resulting from a small staples or thorn, Stans works excellent with latex tube and will seal it just as good as it does on a tubeless tire. I use latex tube and carry a small bottle of Stans.

but if you do decide to use tubeless for road, then yes you DO want a tight tire/rim fitting, because a loose fitting (ie, tire easy to mount) means more chances of tire burping and coming off the rim in a catastrophic flat.
Lol.
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Old 11-11-18, 04:18 PM
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At least stay away from hookless rims.
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Old 11-11-18, 04:49 PM
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The gp4ks2s tubed have been way more reliable than shwalble pro one tubeless . i can say the tibeless are great when they work but with they get a whole and wont seal or wont stay sealed what can i do . i cant rely on the tubeless even if i really want too and enjoyed the ride . if o have to constaly worry about sealant pressure holes tape dimples all kinds of silly stuff I dont with tubes .

I was thinking the only reason i want tubeless is for an increase in perofmance , free speed and less enegery used . so why not just get higher quality race wheels and more aero kit .
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Old 11-11-18, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Teamprovicycle View Post
The gp4ks2s tubed have been way more reliable than shwalble pro one tubeless . i can say the tibeless are great when they work but with they get a whole and wont seal or wont stay sealed what can i do . i cant rely on the tubeless even if i really want too and enjoyed the ride . if o have to constaly worry about sealant pressure holes tape dimples all kinds of silly stuff I dont with tubes .

I was thinking the only reason i want tubeless is for an increase in perofmance , free speed and less enegery used . so why not just get higher quality race wheels and more aero kit .
I've been running road tubeless for 4 years. I have yet to have a flat.

I don't worry about sealant (I check it about every six weeks) and once sealed they've stayed sealed.

Lots of red he rings in this thread.
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Old 11-11-18, 05:04 PM
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Did somebody say hookless tubeless?

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Old 11-11-18, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Teamprovicycle View Post
The gp4ks2s tubed have been way more reliable than shwalble pro one tubeless . i can say the tibeless are great when they work but with they get a whole and wont seal or wont stay sealed what can i do . i cant rely on the tubeless even if i really want too and enjoyed the ride .

I was thinking the only reason i want tubeless is for an increase in perofmance , free speed and less enegery used . so why not just get higher quality race wheels and more aero kit .
Wow, this has not been my experience. I chewed through two sets of gp4000s in a year and never went back. Both my Schwalbe One clinchers (with v guard, whatever that is) and Pro One tubeless ahve been much more durable. As for what to do if I ever get a flat that wont seal, I just carry a tube just in case but I havent needed it in two years.
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Old 11-12-18, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by DOS View Post
Wow, this has not been my experience.
That's only because you actually have experience.
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Old 11-12-18, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Teamprovicycle View Post
The gp4ks2s tubed have been way more reliable than shwalble pro one tubeless . i can say the tibeless are great when they work but with they get a whole and wont seal or wont stay sealed what can i do . i cant rely on the tubeless even if i really want too and enjoyed the ride . if o have to constaly worry about sealant pressure holes tape dimples all kinds of silly stuff I dont with tubes .

I was thinking the only reason i want tubeless is for an increase in perofmance , free speed and less enegery used . so why not just get higher quality race wheels and more aero kit .
Spell check please.... It hurts my eyes to read this : )
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Old 11-12-18, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
Speaking as someone who has been on tubeless since '13 and has three sets of tubeless road wheels, I think a couple of points already mentioned above are worth reiterating.

First, tubeless are not particularly prone to blowing off the rim. It can be forced from severe overinflation, or it can happen when not using properly designated tubeless rims, and I suppose there are cases of defective rims and tires, but the design of tubeless rims, with their bead locking lip, is specifically to address tire retention in pressure loss situations, so that the tire does not come off the rim easily. Most tubeless tire/rim combos can be ridden down to stop safely after even a catastrophic cut causing sudden air loss.

Secondly, the ease of mounting a tubeless tire on a tubeless rim is a matter of the match between the two, and not a characteristic of either. In other words, some tires mount easily on some rims, and difficultly on others. As noted, there has been, until very recently, no open standard for tubeless, and the new-ish open standard, Road UST championed by Mavic, has not been widely adopted yet, so tire/rim matchmaking is still trial-and-error outside of the Mavic system.

Second, proper setup is very important, for example, using tape of the correct width and thickness can be crucial, and absolutely the difference between a nightmare experience and a great one. Similarly, valves which match the width and bed profile of the rims are important, and can impact both sealing and tire fit.

I've had both brilliant and difficult experiences. The original Schwalbe One and the later Pro One both went on and came off first generation American Classic Argent wheels easily by hand but needed an air compressor to seat; Schwalbe S One on AC Victory 30 rims was a wrestle; IRC Formula Pro RBCC on double taped (don't ask!) 2nd gen AC Argents were damn near impossible to mount or remove, but Hutchinson Fusion 5 Galactik 11-storm go on the same just fine, and do so with just a floor pump.

In short, it's neither necessarily easy nor necessarily difficult to get rolling on tubeless, and the use experience will simply reflect that setup. If you struggle to mount tires at home, they're going to be just as hard to handle in a repair situation on the road. My advice would be to test fit any tires before commiting to a ride on them, so just mount them up without sealant at home and see how it goes. If you have to send them back and try another pair, save yourself far greater headaches down the road and just do it immediately. You'll be tempted to feel relieved after struggling to get a tire on, but believe me, if you need to pull it out on the road, your heart will blacken with hatred, and you don't need that!

As for reccos, while I've not tried a whole bunch of different tubeless tires, the Schwalbe Pro One are super, super nice (for me, on my rides, on my roads, at my inflation pressures). The new Galactik 11 Storms are looking capable, too, but it's too early for me to say; I do find them narrow in 25c, too. I won't say anything bad out the IRC Formula Pro RBCC, but I took 2 cuts on two tires in 3 Spring rides, killing $180 worth of rubber, so I just didn't have the time to check them out fully. I don't think I'll bother them again, though.
+1
I just got back my Reynolds Assaults for some factory truing, and they use the blue Stans rim tape, and I have had a lot of frustration in getting it to seal. My rims will not accept any other valves either. You have to use the Reynolds original valve stems or you will not get a seal. I went to using DT Swiss 19 mm tape and following the LBS suggesting of a double wrap but wrapping in a way that shades slightly to one side, then on the second wrap, shading slightly to the other side. Now it seals perfectly. I am using the Schwalbe Pro One's/Orange Endurance sealant -2 oz. and I am very happy.
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Old 12-13-18, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by sirkaos View Post
Spell check please.... It hurts my eyes to read this : )
The gp4ks2s tubed have been way more reliable than shwalbe pro one tubeless .

i can say the tubeless are great when they work but with they get a hole and wont seal or wont stay sealed what can i do .

i cant rely on the tubeless even if i really want too and enjoyed the ride . if i have to constantly worry about sealant pressure holes tape dimples all kinds of silly stuff I don't with tubes .

I was thinking the only reason i want tubeless is for an increase in performance , free speed and less reneger used . so why not just get higher quality race wheels and more aero kit .


HAPPY NOW DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUDE **********??
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Old 12-13-18, 09:01 AM
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I just started riding tubless. I'm using Mavic Ksyrium Pro UST rims and the Mavic Yksion Pro tires. Aside from a cut that I experienced (which would have happened on any clincher), they have been great. They just seem to roll smoother to me.
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Old 12-13-18, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Teamprovicycle View Post
The gp4ks2s tubed have been way more reliable than shwalbe pro one tubeless .

i can say the tubeless are great when they work but with they get a hole and wont seal or wont stay sealed what can i do .

i cant rely on the tubeless even if i really want too and enjoyed the ride . if i have to constantly worry about sealant pressure holes tape dimples all kinds of silly stuff I don't with tubes .

I was thinking the only reason i want tubeless is for an increase in performance , free speed and less reneger used . so why not just get higher quality race wheels and more aero kit .


HAPPY NOW DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUDE **********??
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Old 12-13-18, 09:59 AM
  #23  
DrIsotope
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I ride tubeless because I don't want to be fixing flats on the side of the road every other ride here in the Goathead and Bottle Glass Capital of the World. Any perceived speed/RR advantages are just bonuses. My "do it all" bike has spent all of 2018 on 700x35 Hutchinson Overide TRs. In those ~4,500 miles, I've not had a single flat tire, nor any issues "tubeless related." My road bike has spent the entire year on 700x25 Giant Gavia AC1, about 5,500 miles. I recorded 2 large punctures/cuts, which also destroyed the tires. Chunks of glass both times. If the tires had been tubed, it would have made no difference, they still would have been destroyed. But number of puncture lats avoided? Countless. I've pulled goatheads out of my tires literally dozens of times-- and that doesn't count the ones I never saw.

So at least for me, tubeless has a definite utility. If I could go all year without flats with tubes, I would. But I've no desire to run stiff, heavy, armored tires to enable me to do so. All y'all out there sticking to tubes by running Armadillos, Gators, etc, do yourself a favor and NEVER try tubeless. You'll never be able to go back to those frozen garden hoses disguised as tires.
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Old 12-14-18, 07:36 PM
  #24  
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Tubulars are going the way of the Model A. Go tubeless. Ask your racing buddies what combination rim/tire/sealant they use and follow suite.

I work on tubeless setups at the shop on Saturdays and quite frankly, don't use them myself as it is too much hassle, and too expensive. I don't race, but ride a lot and rarely have flat tires. No flats in 3 years on my three main riders. In fact one of them has not seen a flat tire in 20 years! Was out on it today riding without worry in the crap along side the road.
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Old 12-15-18, 09:35 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by sirkaos View Post
My rims will not accept any other valves either. You have to use the Reynolds original valve stems or you will not get a seal.
That's odd.

My son has been running these with his Reynolds for a year without issue:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0744WPWRH/
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