Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

GP5000s tubeless

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Old 11-12-18, 09:55 AM
  #51  
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I would never argue one tire’s performance over another tubeless or clincher. For me though the cost benefit has been only marginally higher with tubeless. When I was running clinchers I was going through a few $10 tubes per season (to be fair I don’t patch tubes), running clinchers that would cost me between $30-$50 per tire.

most of my tubeless tires have been about $60 ea but I’ve also done well with the Schwalbe Pro Ones at $45 ea. Still I like to play and just bought two new S works tubeless tires for $80ea. I haven’t bought a new tube in 3 years though.

lifespan wise, I was usually replacing my clinchers every 1700-1800 miles depending on tire type, cuts, nicks, etc. I average about 1500 miles on most of my tubeless. I generally replace them when I see cuts with sealant thatbhs come out and dried in multiple spots.

having now had my first catastrophic loss of air on tubeless (last week hit a piece of metal that ripped a gash in my sidewall), I can comfortably say that it was no different from any loss of air with my old clinchers. There was a big whoosh and suddenly I was rolling on a very flat front tire, I was in a group ride and I was just fine lifting my arm to signal my flat that most had heard I pulled over and put a tube and boot in. Worth noting I guess that the tire was still nicely sealed to the rim helping to prevent roll off.
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Old 11-12-18, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by robbyville View Post
I would never argue one tire’s performance over another tubeless or clincher. For me though the cost benefit has been only marginally higher with tubeless. When I was running clinchers I was going through a few $10 tubes per season (to be fair I don’t patch tubes), running clinchers that would cost me between $30-$50 per tire.

most of my tubeless tires have been about $60 ea but I’ve also done well with the Schwalbe Pro Ones at $45 ea. Still I like to play and just bought two new S works tubeless tires for $80ea. I haven’t bought a new tube in 3 years though.

lifespan wise, I was usually replacing my clinchers every 1700-1800 miles depending on tire type, cuts, nicks, etc. I average about 1500 miles on most of my tubeless. I generally replace them when I see cuts with sealant thatbhs come out and dried in multiple spots.

having now had my first catastrophic loss of air on tubeless (last week hit a piece of metal that ripped a gash in my sidewall), I can comfortably say that it was no different from any loss of air with my old clinchers. There was a big whoosh and suddenly I was rolling on a very flat front tire, I was in a group ride and I was just fine lifting my arm to signal my flat that most had heard I pulled over and put a tube and boot in. Worth noting I guess that the tire was still nicely sealed to the rim helping to prevent roll off.
Is there a reason why you're replacing tires when you see that sealant has sealed holes/cuts? That seems like 90% of the reason to use road tubeless in the first place...
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Old 11-12-18, 10:56 AM
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Truly no reason at all, I guess I figure that if I have multiple cuts maybe they will spread or something goofy like that even though they’re sealed. The last schwalbe’s were pretty squared when I had the sidewall rip so I think they were done anyway. Plus I was feeling a little squirrelly on some of my high speed corners so wasn’t sure if that was just me, the tires getting old, pressure, or my new wheels.
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Old 11-12-18, 10:58 AM
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I replace a tubeless tire under two circumstances:

1. it suffers a catastrophic failure due to glass, metal, misc. road debris
2. the tread wears so thin that threads are showing

I've never had to replace a tire for any other reason. I've lost tires sub-200 miles to screws and vodka bottles, I've had tires go 4,000+. If it holds air, it's good to go.
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Old 11-12-18, 02:27 PM
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Is the new Conti tubeless adhering to any standard (UST) or made to be used with any particular wheelset?
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Old 11-12-18, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
We could also talk tariffs. Tires (and elements needed to make them) are being hit with a 10% ding: https://www.moderntiredealer.com/new...d-affect-tires
GP4000s II and the new GP5000 are made in Germany.
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Old 11-12-18, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by GreenAnvil View Post
Is the new Conti tubeless adhering to any standard (UST) or made to be used with any particular wheelset?
here's a reference to the UST standard (which is non-open):

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/To-The...ires-2013.html

https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...-compatibility


It appears that in the Road World, few tire manufacturers abide to the UST standards. This is probably due to the fact that few rim makers want to pay a license fee to be able to make UST rims. And because of this, tire manufacturers have very little incentive to follow the UST standard themselves (because if their tire is UST, then it may work great on a UST rim and not-so-great on a non-UST rim). As a result, consumers are left asking the perpetual question: Which tubeless tire will work best for my tubeless rim?
And just about the only to know the answers is do some bro-science, go on a forum and ask a bunch of bros, and go home and try it yourself and hope it turns out good.
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Old 11-12-18, 06:16 PM
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It's an odd tension. Conti makes the world's most popular tire and Mavic arguably makes the most popular line of wheels. If you've used Mavic's UST rims, you know that they take all the reputed downsides out of using tubeless tires. They are just THAT good. You can easily inflate an UST tire on an UST rim without sealant and with just a floor pump. (You can pump it up slowly!) For that reason, I'm a little surprised Conti would make a tire that wouldn't be UST-compliant -- but that appears to be the case. Between that and the price, I'm a lot more hesitant to give the 5000TL a try. (If it were an UST tire, I would be ordering them today. It would be the road tubeless tire that I've been waiting for!) Since it appears not to be an UST tire, we will see. Time will tell.

On the other hand, Conti is taking quite a risk going to the tubed 5000. The 4000SII tubed beats most tubeless tires in rolling resistance tests. And most sub-28mm tubeless tires require as much or more tire pressure than the 4000SII to perform well. Will people want to pay 2x to 3x what they've been paying for 4000SII just to get a different number on the sidewall? Will people buy into the idea that there's that much of an improvement? Or will the price differential provoke the huge 4000SII fan base to sample other tires for the first time in 14 years? The Conti 4000SII has an amazing, dominant position in the market. Nobody wants to lose that. This is a risky time for Conti's bicycle tire division.
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Old 11-12-18, 11:57 PM
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So take your 4000 add 12% less RR and 20% better puncture protection and it also saves weight in doing so.... why would you still want a 4000 tubed over a 5000 tubed?
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Old 11-13-18, 02:41 AM
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Because cyclist like to stick with what works and is proven . a pair of 4ks cost 70 bucks online from merlin . 5ks cost 160 have no way to prove the claims they make .

its a sad day over all because we are loosing an old friend a tire that got us over thousands of miles . for me i logged 5 thousand miles plus this year on 4ks . they bring me to work and to race . they make race quality performance levels affordable .

i dont care about tubeless vs tubed . i know i can rely on these tires they get flats now and then , but all i have to do is swap a tube and done . the shwalbe pro ones have let me down 3 or 4 times and will mot seal even with dyna plugs and stans race . i dented my cosmic rim running tubeless tires , the only thing i can think to do now is dismount the entire tire , replace the tape becuase it dimples over the spoke holes making inflation almost impossible without a high volume booster pump or compressor , glue a piece of tube over the hole , and try to orange sealant . stans let me down , shwalbe let me down even though they ran great still let me down , my 4ks never did i still have my first 4k i bought last year in my used tire pile .

Conti should rethink the marketing because i know for fact people will mot be rushing out to spend more money on tire performamce when they can just get better wheels that will equal or better the price or the tires .

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Old 11-13-18, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
On the other hand, Conti is taking quite a risk going to the tubed 5000. The 4000SII tubed beats most tubeless tires in rolling resistance tests. And most sub-28mm tubeless tires require as much or more tire pressure than the 4000SII to perform well. Will people want to pay 2x to 3x what they've been paying for 4000SII just to get a different number on the sidewall? Will people buy into the idea that there's that much of an improvement? Or will the price differential provoke the huge 4000SII fan base to sample other tires for the first time in 14 years? The Conti 4000SII has an amazing, dominant position in the market. Nobody wants to lose that. This is a risky time for Conti's bicycle tire division.
Originally Posted by Teamprovicycle View Post
Because cyclist like to stick with what works and is proven . a pair of 4ks cost 70 bucks online from merlin . 5ks cost 160 have no way to prove the claims they make .
Again, there’s so much angst in this thread about MSRP pricing for the GP5000, but we have yet to see what these will actually sell for when they hit the market. For now it’s just rampant speculation.
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Old 11-13-18, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by john.b View Post
Again, there’s so much angst in this thread about MSRP pricing for the GP5000, but we have yet to see what these will actually sell for when they hit the market. For now it’s just rampant speculation.
The MSRP is the same as the 4000 (80US$). Might take a while for the 4000 inventory to clear but I'd imagine the prices will settle about the same.
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Old 11-13-18, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Teamprovicycle View Post
Because cyclist like to stick with what works and is proven . a pair of 4ks cost 70 bucks online from merlin . 5ks cost 160 have no way to prove the claims they make .

its a sad day
It's a sad day because you are not supporting your local bike shop and paying the MSRP of $160 for the 4k's ???????
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Old 11-13-18, 08:21 AM
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This thread is hilarious.
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Old 11-13-18, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Metieval View Post
It's a sad day because you are not supporting your local bike shop and paying the MSRP of $160 for the 4k's ???????
$160 for a pair of 4k's? bwaahaa
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Old 11-13-18, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Good bike tires do not cost nearly as much as good automobile tires.


On a per mile basis, they cost more-

even if you compare the cost of 4 car tires to 2 bike tires.
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Old 11-13-18, 10:46 PM
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My thing is how do we know thier claims are legit they could just be selling snake rubber .
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Old 11-14-18, 12:13 AM
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Good bike tires do not cost nearly as much as good automobile tires.
Originally Posted by woodcraft View Post
On a per mile basis, they cost more - even if you compare the cost of 4 car tires to 2 bike tires.
Not really. In the best case, you can get about 20,000 miles out of a Michelin Pilot Super Sport XL car tire that costs $419. Most people get more than 2,000 miles out of a Schwalbe Pro One bike tire that costs $43, so the cost per mile of the good bike tire is the about the same as (or less than) the good car tire.
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Old 11-14-18, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Not really. In the best case, you can get about 20,000 miles out of a Michelin Pilot Super Sport XL car tire that costs $419. Most people get more than 2,000 miles out of a Schwalbe Pro One bike tire that costs $43, so the cost per mile of the good bike tire is the about the same as (or less than) the good car tire.
A Michelin Pilot Super Sport in a typical size, say for a 17" or 18" wheel, costs less than $150 per tire. Something exotic, like a 295/30-R20 is about 300 bucks. And that tire is warranted for 30,000 miles.

A Pilot Super Sport to fit my car is $148 per tire, $592 for the set. If they last just to the warranty period, they will cost 1.9¢ per mile. Let's say that you could indeed get a GP5000 TL for 60% of RRP, $56.97 per tire. I can expect no more that 3,000 miles out of the rear tire, so let's be super hopeful and say the front lasts twice that-- then just round it to three tires for 6,000 miles. $170.91 works out to 2.9¢ per mile. So the GP5000 TLs, at the "best hope" price cost 50% more per mile than ultra-high performance summer automobile tires. Typical commuter tires? Fuggedaboutit. The Michelins on my wife's car have 45,000 miles on them and the fronts are about halfway worn-- less than 80 bucks each.
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Old 11-14-18, 01:49 AM
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
A Michelin Pilot Super Sport in a typical size, say for a 17" or 18" wheel, costs less than $150 per tire. Something exotic, like a 295/30-R20 is about 300 bucks. And that tire is warranted for 30,000 miles.
My car takes 305/30ZR20 tires on the rear. I paid $419 each about a year ago, but they are now about $500. I would say they fall under the category of good, but not exotic, tires.


The 30,000 mile warranty doesn't really tell you the expected life of the tire. (In fact, the warranty is actually halved for tires that cannot be rotated, which applies to cars that use different sizes on the front and rear.) 20,000 miles of tread life is pretty normal for these particular tires, and pretty good for high performance tires.

A Pilot Super Sport to fit my car is $148 per tire, $592 for the set. If they last just to the warranty period, they will cost 1.9¢ per mile. Let's say that you could indeed get a GP5000 TL for 60% of RRP, $56.97 per tire. I can expect no more that 3,000 miles out of the rear tire, so let's be super hopeful and say the front lasts twice that-- then just round it to three tires for 6,000 miles. $170.91 works out to 2.9¢ per mile. So the GP5000 TLs, at the "best hope" price cost 50% more per mile than ultra-high performance summer automobile tires. Typical commuter tires? Fuggedaboutit. The Michelins on my wife's car have 45,000 miles on them and the fronts are about halfway worn-- less than 80 bucks each.
I agree that low/mid priced car tires cost less (per mile) than good bike tires, but it's an apples-to-oranges comparison. ($80 and $148 Michelins are low and mid priced tires, respectively.) Good bike tires do not cost more (per mile) than good car tires.
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Old 11-14-18, 08:10 AM
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A 305/30ZR20 is what's on the back of a 2018 Porsche 911 Targa 4S, which is about $125,000 before any options. So let's pick a comparable "911 bike," like a Cannondale SuperSix Black Inc, which goes for about $12,000.

If we want to split hairs, a $400 tire on a $125K car is in no way comparable to a $95 tire on even a $12K bicycle. The Porsche's tires would need to be about $1,000 each.

Like most people, I don't drive a $125K Porsche, and I don't ride a $12K bicycle. I drive a $25K car and I ride a $2K bicycle. Relative to those numbers, a $95, 1" wide tire that will last 3-4 months is simply ridiculous.
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Old 11-14-18, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
A 305/30ZR20 is what's on the back of a 2018 Porsche 911 Targa 4S, which is about $125,000 before any options. So let's pick a comparable "911 bike," like a Cannondale SuperSix Black Inc, which goes for about $12,000.

If we want to split hairs, a $400 tire on a $125K car is in no way comparable to a $95 tire on even a $12K bicycle. The Porsche's tires would need to be about $1,000 each.

Like most people, I don't drive a $125K Porsche, and I don't ride a $12K bicycle. I drive a $25K car and I ride a $2K bicycle. Relative to those numbers, a $95, 1" wide tire that will last 3-4 months is simply ridiculous.
How about a $30k STI which would be the equiv of a budget race bike with 245/35/R19 super sport at $1000/set per 30,000 miles or 3.3cents/mile
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Old 11-14-18, 11:58 AM
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Would this be the perfect "bling" for someone's Meilensteins???
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Old 11-14-18, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by tagaproject6 View Post
Would this be the perfect "bling" for someone's Meilensteins???
the only thing that belongs on meilensteins are handmade silk tubulars
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Old 11-14-18, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
If we want to split hairs, a $400 tire on a $125K car is in no way comparable to a $95 tire on even a $12K bicycle. The Porsche's tires would need to be about $1,000 each.
I agree, but only because you're comparing the MSRP of one of the lost expensive bike tires on the market to the discounted price of a fairly common performance car tire. Regardless, the price of the car and the price of the bike aren't relevant. (People put expensive tires on mid-priced cars all the time.)

Like most people, I don't drive a $125K Porsche, and I don't ride a $12K bicycle. I drive a $25K car and I ride a $2K bicycle. Relative to those numbers, a $95, 1" wide tire that will last 3-4 months is simply ridiculous.
You don't have to put the most expensive tire on your mid-priced bike. If you do, you don't have to spend MSRP for it.
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