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Ultegra 8000 and 105 7000: How Much Better?

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Ultegra 8000 and 105 7000: How Much Better?

Old 12-04-18, 10:23 AM
  #26  
HarborBandS
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
It is I guess theoretically possible that Shimano redesigned the RD and managed to do so in a manner that had absolutely no impact to performance (+ or -), but I'd tend to doubt this as likely.
I would argue that Shimano pretty much nailed rear derailleur design 20 years ago, and that there have been basically no significant improvements to shift quality coming from the rear derailleur itself.

The brifter design has improved tremendously in that time, however. And of course, they keep adding gears to the rear cassette.
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Old 12-04-18, 11:47 AM
  #27  
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The shadow rear derailleur is a big change as far as rear derailleur design goes.
They did it on mtb first, and it's been there for a while before they put it on the road side.

besides being more tucked in and helping to prevent damage,the low profile helps it not hit the chainstay (though that is more a mtb concern)

Shadow also tracks the cassette more accurately and consistently for better shifting.

Originally Posted by HarborBandS View Post


I would argue that Shimano pretty much nailed rear derailleur design 20 years ago, and that there have been basically no significant improvements to shift quality coming from the rear derailleur itself.

The brifter design has improved tremendously in that time, however. And of course, they keep adding gears to the rear cassette.
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Old 12-04-18, 01:35 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by radroad View Post
Yeah but people in this thread are saying that dura ace levers have a shorter throw and are objectively different. Where is this quote from?
GCN interviewed Shimano (Tim Gerrits, Shimano Product Manager for Europe) and he stated: "...they are the same, the same functionality." (Shimano Dura-Ace Vs Shimano Ultegra | What's the Difference?, 1:36) GCN pressed further about shifting quality specifically at the 2:00 mark, and the answer was that they are identical, the only difference between the two are materials used and manufacturing processes used to bring price points down. I'm not sure where the other posters are getting their information from regarding shorter throw etc, but Tim Gerrits stated directly that they are 100% identical, short of the materials (ti vs alu, etc).
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Old 12-04-18, 01:43 PM
  #29  
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Regarding 5/6800 to the new generation 7/8000, I have both 105 5800 and Ultegra 8000 and I can say that the shifting quality in the rear is actually remarkably similar. I'd say that the only way I can tell the difference between the two is when I shift under load; then the Ultegra reacts far better than 105. Otherwise, if my 105 is properly set up with new-ish cables, its rear shifting is pretty spot on. The front shifting is noticeably better in 8000 regardless of load. Probably the biggest difference I feel is the shifting lever itself - on 8000, it's more ergonomic and comfortable.
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Old 12-04-18, 03:13 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Psychocycles View Post
GCN interviewed Shimano (Tim Gerrits, Shimano Product Manager for Europe) and he stated: "...they are the same, the same functionality." (Shimano Dura-Ace Vs Shimano Ultegra | What's the Difference?, 1:36) GCN pressed further about shifting quality specifically at the 2:00 mark, and the answer was that they are identical, the only difference between the two are materials used and manufacturing processes used to bring price points down. I'm not sure where the other posters are getting their information from regarding shorter throw etc, but Tim Gerrits stated directly that they are 100% identical, short of the materials (ti vs alu, etc).
I haven't ridden dura ace, but 6800 mechanical is ridiculously smooth and fast and the throws are satisfyingly short. For me, ultegra is the sweet spot between performance and value. Ugh, sounds like marketing speak, but actually, it is the truth.

Originally Posted by Psychocycles View Post
Regarding 5/6800 to the new generation 7/8000, I have both 105 5800 and Ultegra 8000 and I can say that the shifting quality in the rear is actually remarkably similar. I'd say that the only way I can tell the difference between the two is when I shift under load; then the Ultegra reacts far better than 105. Otherwise, if my 105 is properly set up with new-ish cables, its rear shifting is pretty spot on. The front shifting is noticeably better in 8000 regardless of load. Probably the biggest difference I feel is the shifting lever itself - on 8000, it's more ergonomic and comfortable.
This settles it for me. Ultegra it is.
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Old 12-04-18, 08:12 PM
  #31  
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From riding them.
Yes, the technology is the same but Dura Ace is indeed their no-limit top tier group. The shifting does feel the most refined and with the best feel over the others.
It's easy to just ride it and see for yourself.
Like I said, Ultegra is 90% of DA for 50% the price.

Originally Posted by Psychocycles View Post
I'm not sure where the other posters are getting their information from regarding shorter throw etc, but Tim Gerrits stated directly that they are 100% identical, short of the materials (ti vs alu, etc).
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Old 12-04-18, 08:55 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by cruiserhead View Post
From riding them.
Yes, the technology is the same but Dura Ace is indeed their no-limit top tier group. The shifting does feel the most refined and with the best feel over the others.
It's easy to just ride it and see for yourself.
Like I said, Ultegra is 90% of DA for 50% the price.
You are experiencing placebo effect, not any real difference.
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Old 12-05-18, 12:01 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by radroad View Post
You are experiencing placebo effect, not any real difference.
That must be it thanks
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Old 12-05-18, 02:47 AM
  #34  
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The devil may be in the details. Just as many ride bikes with sub par cabling, many compare their 4 year old, 12.000 mile bike x with their brand new bike y and obviously conclude the new one is better. Well duh, as they say. Then there is the whole off brand chain and cassette thing. Are we really comparing 105 vs Ultegra vs DA if some or all the bikes are equipped with KMC chians and/or sunrace cassettes?
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Old 12-05-18, 06:31 AM
  #35  
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I swear the 10 speed Ultegra SL I had (wasn't that an updated 6600 in a darker gray?) was about as perfect of shifting as I could ask for. After I got hit by a car, I built up a bike with Campy, and I prefer the hood feel so I didn't ride Shimano on the road until I went hydro disk (aside from a bike I rode with 6700... how that ever made it to sale is beyond me). Now I have 685 levers paired with a 1x11 105 group, and it all works... perfectly, even with an 11-46 out back and a roadlink. I can't say I have ever ridden Dura Ace, but I thought 6600 was pretty much perfect, only reason to upgrade from that is wider range. Plus, I think the dark gray/gunmetal from back then was the best looking Ultegra ever was.
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Old 12-05-18, 07:51 AM
  #36  
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I own both 105 and Ultegra 11 speed and question whether the 5800 group the OP says didn't perform well was set up correctly.

The insistence that someone can't tell the difference between 6800 and 9000 by someone who has never ridden 9000 and claims Tiagra performs better than 105 seems odd. That 9000/9100 rim brakes are some of the best brakes ever produced can't be argued.

The question was asked about 5800/6800 vs 7000/8000. The newer front derailleur is completely different and shifts much better. It is a great upgrade given the low price of front derailleurs. I think I paid $42 for mine, retail at the LBS


-Tim-.
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Old 12-22-18, 10:14 PM
  #37  
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Two GCN guys can tell the difference between 105 and DA blindfolded but just barely. Then again, their vid has the caption "includes paid promotion."


Shimano rep says Ultegra is identical to DA in performance but weighs more:

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Old 12-23-18, 08:18 AM
  #38  
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Goes to show that 105 has really closed the gap in performance if two experienced cyclists can barely tell the difference, and even if it was paid promotion I'd say this wasn't the best promotion for Shimano because anyone for whom 500 g of weight isn't an issue is clearly going to choose 105 (except if you want Di2) as you can buy a whole bike for the price difference between 7000 & 9100.
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Old 12-23-18, 03:52 PM
  #39  
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Shimano basically cribbed the DA design for Ultegra and 105. The brifter dimensions for DA and 105 are identical. Length of throws are also identical (or at least very close, GCN did not measure). Yet they can still tell the difference. Perhaps stronger springs in DA derailleurs for faster shifts? Higher quality cables and housing for less friction and lighter effort? Carbon bits in components dampen noise and vibration a bit?
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Old 12-23-18, 06:52 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Psychocycles View Post
even if it was paid promotion I'd say this wasn't the best promotion for Shimano because anyone for whom 500 g of weight isn't an issue is clearly going to choose 105
It is the best promotion for Shimano because 105 is what they want pushed.
105 is in the most competitive market with a lot of new competition in the budget realm from SRAM and others for a lot of volume sales.

People buying Ultegra and Dura Ace are going to buy it no matter what 105 quality is. And, 105 is still considered a high end groupset.

It's not hard to tell the differences once you actually compare the products as has been repeated in this thread.
It's not hard to go and try this stuff out at any shop.
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