radroad

I was amazed by Ultegra 6800 when I rode it a couple years back. Blazing fast shifting. The front shifting in particular was alarmingly fast and quiet. I also loved the short lever throws and compact levers. Everything worked like a charm and the group looked beautiful. I was less impressed by 105 5800. It didn't look as nice or shift quite as quickly or quietly. 4700 Tiagra on the other hand was modeled so closely after ultegra that it looked and felt like a 10 speed version.

What about ultegra 8000 and 105 7000? Are either of those groups noticeable upgrades compared to their predecessors? I've read the ultegra rim brakes are a significant improvement, offering the best stopping power to date. Other than that, for those who have upgraded, what do you think? Are new ultegra and 105 significantly improved?

DOS

cruiserhead

Yes, they are significantly different.

Shadow rear derailleur - totally different design
double cam front derailleur
shifting is now even more closer to Dura Ace
ergonomics on the levers is improved, though that is personal preference
I'm not sure on the crankset stifness but I prefer the new cranks compared to the older
brakes you already mentioned

having said all that, the 6800 is great
the biggest improvements have come with 105. That is the biggest value/performance gain between DA/Ultegra/105

Jack Tone 

I just saw a video from GCN last night about a first ride on 105 7000. The one point that stuck with me was that the weight difference between 8000 and 7000 was only about 175 grams.

Hiro11

I have a bike with 6800 and it is indeed terrific. 8000 looks significantly better, it was a huge update and they trickled down almost everything from Dura Ace. Looking at 8000, I think it's not possible to justify Dura Ace from a practical perspective these days. 7000 looks almost exactly like 8000, again Shimano is not messing around with 105. I always buy Ultegra because it's usually only a few bucks more (especially compared to the giant leap in cost for Dura Ace), but I'm not sure it's worth it.

JonnyV

I would love to see a 105 di2 groupset. I ride Ultegra now but I love the 105 line for its bang for buck.

sdmc530

Spot on! I would love to see this as well. I doubt it will happen anytime soon if at all though. 105 is the best price point for a recreational rider IMO. I wouldn't get ultegra unless it was cheaper than 105 just because of the value of 105 is so good and its so solid!

DOS

Elvo

6800 shifters work perfectly with RX800 RD. Also lets me run 11-36T with no road link. Have a FD-8000 sitting in a box that I will install soon.

cruiserhead

Dura Ace is worth it if you care about the fine details and just having the best components.
DA uses proprietary motors on their electronic groups, Higher quality bearings, etc a lot of nice finishing and metal parts inside where Ultegra does with plastics or stamped steel

Dura Ace is still a huge value for what they are offering. It's just that the new 105 is the best value within the three groups.

For me,
Mechanical = DuraAce
Di2 = Ultegra (the generic motors are dead reliable)

Hiro11

"Stamped steel"? "Plastics"? Where exactly? Ultegra is hardly junk. Dura Ace is double the cost of Ultegra. Functionally they are the same. Ultegra is extremely reliable and long lasting, so no real difference there. The only real difference is Dura Ace weighs ~300g less. I'm sure some people might find half a pound worth ~$600-$700, but as I said it's pretty hard to justify from a strictly practical perspective.

Note for ultra-clarity: I'm not arguing want vs. need. I totally understand buying Dura Ace, especially as $600 in extra cost amortized over the lifespan of a group is not a lot of money. My point is that Ultegra has never been closer from a functional perspective.

radroad

Is it safe to say that ultra 8000 is now identical to dura ace strictly in terms of performance? I only mean performance of shifters, derailleurs, brakes, and bearings, aside from weight, price, prestige.

cruiserhead

No, the Dura Ace has shorter throw, more precise shifting. It also has higher quality bearings.
The DA's better braking is, my guess, due to the pads and poly housings.
It is also finished better and uses more expensive materials throughout.
Ultegra is made to meet a pricepoint.

But Ultegra is giving you 90% of the functional performance at 50% of the price, so it's still the best 'high end' value.
The best straight up value for dollar is new 105. That is functionally very close to Ultegra.

Shimano is smart and tiered their groups really well.

Sy Reene

In electronics, what Shimano does is similar to the idea of crippleware.

john.b

This summer I had the chance to ride back-to-back-to-back days, between a newish 105 7000 bike and my almost identical daily driver with Ultegra 6800 and was disappointed that the 7000 bike just couldn't dial in that same crisp shifting I'm used to.

radroad

I wasn't impressed at all by 5800. So I'm not surprised that 7000 was a bit of a disappointment. I found 4700 tiagra and 6800 to both be excellent however. I'm really looking forward to trying out new ultegra. It's winter so I might have to wait a while for nicer weather.

Racing Dan

Sometimes you are not testing the group set per se. Rather you may be testing bike manufacturers shoddy (Internal) cabling. Imo, with good cabling and installation it all works well.

Quiglesnbits

Shimano themselves say that purely from a performance perspective they are equal. I don't think you'll find someone to give a truly unbiased opinion but I'd guess it's true.

radroad

Yeah but people in this thread are saying that dura ace levers have a shorter throw and are objectively different. Where is this quote from?

beermode

I question this. Probably due to adjustments and install quirks.

HarborBandS

Yep. If you have everything set up correctly, all of the groups from Tiagra up shift nearly perfectly. The differences are mostly weight, materials, and durability. And for now, Tiagra is 10-speed.

I'm not buying the "shadow derailleur" as a significant benefit, other than it being a bit more out of the way.

Kimmo 

Isn't that pretty much the whole point?

Sy Reene

I'd assume the point of a derailleur is to shift gears. Any change to the design of a derailleur is likely to impact this basic capability in some manner -- either positively or negatively. It is I guess theoretically possible that Shimano redesigned the RD and managed to do so in a manner that had absolutely no impact to performance (+ or -), but I'd tend to doubt this as likely.

DowneasTTer

I just upgraded my wife's and my flat bar road bikes from the 5800 series 105s to the new 8000 series Ultegra. I have noticed quite a bit of difference in the smoothness of shifting. Now part of that may be due to the fact the 105's had over 30k miles on the set (except chain and cassette of course) and part due to the fact I want it to be better. I think one the problems with fitting the RD is the cable run on the frameset with internal cabling creates a different path to the RD that might cause some binding if not done carefully. Shouldn't be an issue for most.....though

TimothyH

This is a great thread and a great topic.

I've upgraded 5800 front derailleur to 7000.

Nobody has mentioned setup. I found it easy to install and get dialed in. Cable routing and how the cable is secured is vastly improved over the older design.

It requires much less pressure on the lever to shift. The first time out I tried to trim and actually shifted.

Not sure if it is relevant to the conversation but the Ultegra RX models now have a clutch.


-Tim-