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New Etap AXS review and pricing

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New Etap AXS review and pricing

Old 02-08-19, 10:24 AM
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Classic situation of a solution looking for a problem!
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Old 02-08-19, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by ljsense
Personally, I am not sold on electronic shifting. Bikes work so well mechanically. I appreciate that electronic shifting can push it even a little better, and do really clever things -- like automatically put you into the next sequenced gear when you do a front shift -- but one less battery to stay on top of has a luxury of its own.
Agree with your whole post. Wanted to bring this part out particularly. I was slow to come around to electronic. I work on it a ton now in almost all forms (no EPS). I eneded up finally moving that way myself last year. I love a ton of it. It really is nice and a leap forward.

BUT.... Twice I've gotten on the trainer and not been able to shift until I go grab my charger and plug in the group. It's immensely annoying. Almost in a large enough way that there will absolutely be a retro movement back to cables at some point by the riding public for sure. You just don't have to worry with mechanical and it just simply works so well.

Originally Posted by DrIsotope
46/10 basically the same as 50/11.

So let's see about the AXS.
  • Proprietary chain
  • Proprietary cassette
  • Proprietary hub body (not even a "regular" xD driver)
  • Power meter built into chainring, so a ring replacement for a PM-fitted bike costs nearly $600
  • Not backwards compatible to eTap in any way

...aaaand the most common (I would think) 2X rim brake groupset is just... $4,000.
Point of clarification - XDR is XD just an "11 speed version" meaning the same body length as an 11 speed HG freehub or 1.8mm longer than XD. As a wheel builder I have to admit it's a good system. In application it's about as proprietary as Shimano HG 7/8/9/10/11 is/was in that it is readily open licensing and just about every hub manufacturer I deal with already has them on hand. .....they are also "hot swappable". You don't have to rebuild a wheel or even re-dish it in essence. Just pull the axle apart and pull the driver and replace. On most modern thru axle hubs with endcaps that's a 20 second swap.

Originally Posted by Carverbiker
Classic situation of a solution looking for a problem!
They have a lot of engineers. We race with a lot of them and at least a couple I can actually consider friends. I put together a how to video on YouTube about how to service sticking road hydraulic levers because they hadn't. I had to see one of the engineering/the engineering manager the next night at a local event for the cycling community. I was sure he was going to give me an earful. Instead he came up smiling, shook my hand, and thanked me for getting the info out there. Said he ran it by some of his engineers that designed the product initially and they had 4 comments they wanted to forward on. 1 was "don't forget eye protection". 2 was "if they can't flip it over in the stand remind people they can loosen the stem and rotate the bars. 3. We can debate the value of greasing the piston o-rings - manager says "I get the feeling this is an engineering vs good mechanic in the field kind of debate. You're both right and it comes down to preference and what the customer wants." 4. Get a tripod for the camera.

So...actually knowing a lot of people at SRAM....

They have a lot of problems. They have a lot of staff, particularly a part of the Zipp/Indy crew that are immensely pompous and just can't interact with people without covering the ground they walk on with a sort of vile grease of smugness. Think vile, pompous millennial attitude. The sales force has a lot of the same issue. The engineering staff is smart. They know their stuff and they do race and ride the hell out of everything. They're immensely awkward and aren't the best talking to the public but they honestly love the sport and really are working on what they feel is technology they hope will improve the experience for everyone.

The marketing group... Some of their leaders I truly like, consider friends, and admire what they can and have done. I think they were the start of the smug culture that currently is pervasive throughout SRAM but I've never known them to be too busy to stop and shake a hand or say hello. that goes a long way.

So are they in the business of just creating new stuff for the sake of creating new stuff? It may seem that way from the outside but it's not a part of their engineering DNA. I don't know anyone in that organization that doesn't ride and many to most race. They are us. Many are on here and just don't out themselves or participate because they can't. I am sure they are reading this thread. They're good people trying to make good stuff. That really is their goal.

Marketing - they did a great job this time at timing the release and information to go off in the right way. I can't think of anyone in this industry that has ever done a better job with that. That's truly industry changing and impressive. Shimano couldn't coordinate a tech memo release to coincide with a leap year holiday if it tried. They are truly disjointed and it's sad because they really could do a lot better. Don't think they aren't watching this launch though.

Pricing....I'm with you. It's too much. Way too much. but maybe we have finally hit the era where riding the absolute top components was actually within the reach of the vast majority of the enthusiast riding public. That said - I vaguely recall some issues they were having with pricing and costs when eTap was first around. We had been seeing it in races for a couple of years and talk was they had it ready to go but they couldn't release it because it was just too expensive and they were doing everything they could to bring the costs down so they could sell it at a reasonable or at least sell-able price and not lose money on it. I still don't think it ever really became profitable for them in the way that it should or could have. I think this is more of a move to right that wrong.

End of the day - it's an interesting group. I applaud their effort. I admire their boldness at introducing so many pieces that are proprietary when the industry has shown that is almost never awarded. I hope for the sake of the future of SRAM and their employees that play such a large role int he cycling community here locally that it all works out and is seen as a good move when we look back on it.
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Old 02-08-19, 06:40 PM
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Just costs more than all my bikes put together.
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Old 02-08-19, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by San Pedro
Just costs more than all my bikes put together.
Bikes costing more than my car I could get over...groupsets costing as much is silly.
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Old 02-08-19, 11:55 PM
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What I liked about SRAM is that it was compatible with Shimano.
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Old 02-11-19, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
Bikes costing more than my car I could get over...groupsets costing as much is silly.
The target demographic for this group are driving $100k+ cars.

Everything I've read and seen online sounds like this is an amazing groupset and amazing technology. It's definitely out of my reach and beyond my needs or desires until it eventually trickles down but I'm glad it exists
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Old 02-11-19, 08:12 AM
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It appears the only thing "new" is adding one more cog and making everything proprietary. Next up, Shimano going the same route. Result, ever more expensive and potentially fragile parts that does the same thing as last year and ten years ago. Hardly anything to get exited about, IMO.
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Old 02-11-19, 10:46 AM
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.....and just like that someone from SRAM mentioned this thread yesterday.
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Old 02-11-19, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001
.....and just like that someone from SRAM mentioned this thread yesterday.
was he immensely pompous at the time?
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Old 02-11-19, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by noodle soup
was he immensely pompous at the time?
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Old 02-11-19, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by noodle soup
was he immensely pompous at the time?
nope. *shrug* but in fairness he caught me in passing and we only talked a few seconds.
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Old 02-11-19, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001

nope. *shrug* but in fairness he caught me in passing and we only talked a few seconds.
The big problem I have with SRAM is because of their Avid Hydraulic brakes.

Every year I'd talk to the SRAM rep, and he'd tell me how they fixed the problem. Year after year, it was BS.

Friends don't let friends, ride SRAM.
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Old 02-11-19, 09:01 PM
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I have SRAM (rim brake) on both my bikes - one with mechanical and one with eTap. I love the eTap. The new prices for the AXS 2 systems are insane - around 3500$ before tax for the rim variant??? I am fine with something like eTap - don't tax me for "a system". Keep it. If they only made shifting faster and kept the price down... Sigh. And a proprietary chain???

Last edited by Boerd; 02-12-19 at 12:15 AM.
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Old 02-11-19, 11:46 PM
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I actually don't have problems with the price. It's a premium product targeting high end. More proprietary stuff is step in wrong direction thought.
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Old 02-12-19, 09:54 AM
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What a hideous piece of crap. It sure ain't Campagnolo.
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Old 02-12-19, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
I don't want a 10T. Prefer tighter spacing in the middle of the cassette where I spend most of my time.
Exactly. I don’t even really want an 11T either. I would prefer to keep the 11T and go lower and with tighter groupings. Or even to offer a 12T. For riding in the mountains, I’ve even taken a 12-25 and an 11-32 and split them apart at the 16T to make a 12-32 and an 11-25. The 12-32 works well for me when I need to go low. These cassettes are two pieces - 10 cogs in one and 2 cogs in the other part. So you’re kind of stuck with what they think you need.

I would imagine will see the 11T cassettes offered by next year maybe (would hope, at least).

There are some awesome prices around now on the 11 speed e-tap. That’s a great kit for a bike retrofit.

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Old 02-14-19, 02:05 PM
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Western Bikeworks has already gotten ahold of eTap AXS, and as expected, any early adopters are gonna get MAP'd, hard.

Non-hydro 2X levers + FD + RD: $2,000 (1X non-hydro $1,550, 1X hydro $2,050, 2X hydro $2,500)
RED crankset: $690, w/ power $1,200 (no price difference for 1X vs 2X)
Flat-top chain: $70
Cassette: $350

So a typical rim-brake 2X roadie is looking at $3,110 for the group-- plus the cost of the special xD driver, I would imagine. Buyer would get about $300 in store credit on the purchase though, mostly offsetting the cassette.

I'm probably equal parts poor and cheap, but all I can think is, man, I could put together a real nice bike... or two... for 3 grand.
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Old 02-14-19, 03:03 PM
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I’ve seen upgrade shifter kits - shifters, FD, RD and chain for $2000. This begs the question if the FD can handle a 16 tooth difference in chainrings to use with current 50-34 cranks. That, with the new 10-33 or 10-28 cassette has decent range. That said, I have zero interest in a 10 tooth cog.
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Old 02-14-19, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnJ80
I’ve seen upgrade shifter kits - shifters, FD, RD and chain for $2000. This begs the question if the FD can handle a 16 tooth difference in chainrings to use with current 50-34 cranks. That, with the new 10-33 or 10-28 cassette has decent range. That said, I have zero interest in a 10 tooth cog.
That's the genius of the marketing policy. if you want 12 speeds, you need to use one of their 12-speed cassettes, which means you get a 10t, which means you effectively Don't get a 12th cog---the 10t being useless.

To make use og the SRAM 12-speed cassette, you sort of have to go to the smaller chainrings.

The question the becomes, what ration will say, a Shimano 46-30 offer? Seems that set-up would work---same top end, even lower low end than SRAM offers .... but you would still need to by new chain rings. Of course, we don't know if the SRAM front derailleur can handle the 16-t jump.

What's the overall gain? For people who already don't use the 11t cog much, but don't regularly climb mountains ..... I'd say, No Gain. $2500 in parts all told---shifters derailleurs, cassette, rings, tape, cables, battery chargers, whatever .... the rider gets ... a lower bail-out gear.

For that money i'd simply buy a whole new bike with 48-32 up front and a 11-36 out back with a Wolf Tooth road link.

i think the new ETap is built to sell on Bling Appeal, "I've got the latest" appeal, "If I am getting a new bike I might as well" appeal, to people with a Lot of money. I don't see amateur racers laying out that kind of money for at best exceedingly marginal gains in mid-range efficiency---a new set of $2500 wheels which saved a few grams would offer offer more performance gain---and the pros don't care. They just ride whatever they are handed.

All I Really see the new ETap system doing is driving up the top end of the parts price range---allowing manufacturers to sell more useful stuff for more money as well. I don't see old ETap coming down in price at all---I see people starting to consider spending more money becauee compared to the outrageous sticker shock of 12-speed, the rest doesn't seem As outrageous.

Smart retailers might want to stock up on 11-speed Ultegra and 105, both electronic and mechanical, because there is going to be a big market among casual enthusiasts---the one who love to ride but also need to pay for their kids' schooling and save for retirement. In a couple years 11-speed DI2 might be considered standard for folks who love to ride bikes and also have other lives.
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Old 02-14-19, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
That's the genius of the marketing policy. if you want 12 speeds, you need to use one of their 12-speed cassettes, which means you get a 10t, which means you effectively Don't get a 12th cog---the 10t being useless.

To make use og the SRAM 12-speed cassette, you sort of have to go to the smaller chainrings.

The question the becomes, what ration will say, a Shimano 46-30 offer? Seems that set-up would work---same top end, even lower low end than SRAM offers .... but you would still need to by new chain rings. Of course, we don't know if the SRAM front derailleur can handle the 16-t jump.

What's the overall gain? For people who already don't use the 11t cog much, but don't regularly climb mountains ..... I'd say, No Gain. $2500 in parts all told---shifters derailleurs, cassette, rings, tape, cables, battery chargers, whatever .... the rider gets ... a lower bail-out gear.

For that money i'd simply buy a whole new bike with 48-32 up front and a 11-36 out back with a Wolf Tooth road link.

i think the new ETap is built to sell on Bling Appeal, "I've got the latest" appeal, "If I am getting a new bike I might as well" appeal, to people with a Lot of money. I don't see amateur racers laying out that kind of money for at best exceedingly marginal gains in mid-range efficiency---a new set of $2500 wheels which saved a few grams would offer offer more performance gain---and the pros don't care. They just ride whatever they are handed.

All I Really see the new ETap system doing is driving up the top end of the parts price range---allowing manufacturers to sell more useful stuff for more money as well. I don't see old ETap coming down in price at all---I see people starting to consider spending more money becauee compared to the outrageous sticker shock of 12-speed, the rest doesn't seem As outrageous.

Smart retailers might want to stock up on 11-speed Ultegra and 105, both electronic and mechanical, because there is going to be a big market among casual enthusiasts---the one who love to ride but also need to pay for their kids' schooling and save for retirement. In a couple years 11-speed DI2 might be considered standard for folks who love to ride bikes and also have other lives.
Actually, no. You need an entire new crankset.

Physically, the smallest circular rings a 110BCD will permit are 33T...although you can squeeze out 32T if you get very creative and accurate/precise machining (As in Praxis Works 48/32 cranks). To get 30T you need a smaller BCD (as in say Sugino or IRD cranks), or use direct mount rings of some sort (FSA). Your standard Hollowtech cranks--as of now--do not permit 30T circular rings.
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Old 02-14-19, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
Actually, no. You need an entire new crankset.

Physically, the smallest circular rings a 110BCD will permit are 33T...although you can squeeze out 32T if you get very creative and accurate/precise machining (As in Praxis Works 48/32 cranks). To get 30T you need a smaller BCD (as in say Sugino or IRD cranks), or use direct mount rings of some sort (FSA). Your standard Hollowtech cranks--as of now--do not permit 30T circular rings.
This is what caught my eye while I was researching my post--https://bikerumor.com/2018/01/09/climb-anything-new-absoluteblack-46-30-48-32-micro-compact-chainrings/---no idea on the cost, but I bet, more than i would want to pay but less than the cost of a new Red ETap crank set.

Whoops, i should have scrolled down ... "Prices for the 46T/48T are €105/95£/124$ and for the 30T/32T 76€/67£/87.5$." So about $250 for the rings alone? Ouch.

I wasn't planning on doing it anyway, but thanks for pointing that out.
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Old 02-14-19, 04:20 PM
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Maelochs, ex of both a very very significant discount and crystal clear ability to forecast sales, I can't imagine what smart retailer wants to stock up on any product that ties up capital for a replenishable inventory item.
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Old 02-14-19, 04:35 PM
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SRAM makes some comparisons about the increased range of their 12 speed crank and cassette combinations, compared to 11 speed in this cycling tips article, but fails to make a legitimate comparison of what can be done with traditional chainring combinations and an 11T smallest cog, like Campy has already done, using the same hubs that work with 9/10/11 speed. Sprinters have used a 54 or 55T big ring for many years, to get the same 5:1 gear ratio as the 50/10. Campy has all of the 1 tooth shifts on their 12 speed cassettes, that make any sense (11-17). The 18-19 shift is rarely considered to be of any value because the percentage difference is only 5%. The 11-12 shift is 8.3%. while a 10-11 shift is 9%. You can't get something for nothing.

https://cyclingtips.com/2019/02/sram...ap-axs-review/

There is no magic to getting range. If you want more range, you either have to increase the percentage difference between the rings or make some bigger jumps between some of the larger cogs.

I could upgrade from Campy 11 to 12, with only shifters, cassette, FD and RD, for less than $1000, but all I'd gain is an 11T cog that I don't need. I use a 12-32, because I can get all the speed I need on the flats and I let gravity take me up to 50 mph on the steep descents. I have 1T shifts, all the way to the 17T, just like Campy 12 speed. Campy will probably offer a Chorus 12 group in 2020, to make 12 speed more affordable.

I'd be interested to know how close Campy 12 and SRAM 12 cog spacing is.
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Old 02-14-19, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS
There is no magic to getting range. If you want more range, you either have to increase the percentage difference between the rings or make some bigger jumps between some of the larger cogs.
This. At a certain point, one-tooth jumps are too small to be meaningful, so going to two teeth just makes sense. Going to three- (or more) tooth jumps way up the cassette are not much different than single jumps down low.

An 11-34, 12-34, or 12-36 12-speed makes more sense to me--lots of range, small enough jumps, and no need to change the cranks and FD.
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Old 02-14-19, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
This is what caught my eye while I was researching my post--https://bikerumor.com/2018/01/09/climb-anything-new-absoluteblack-46-30-48-32-micro-compact-chainrings/---no idea on the cost, but I bet, more than i would want to pay but less than the cost of a new Red ETap crank set.

Whoops, i should have scrolled down ... "Prices for the 46T/48T are €105/95£/124$ and for the 30T/32T 76€/67£/87.5$." So about $250 for the rings alone? Ouch.

I wasn't planning on doing it anyway, but thanks for pointing that out.
Also the Absolute Black rings are ovular, not circular
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