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Tubular tires vs. clincher tires

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Tubular tires vs. clincher tires

Old 02-27-19, 09:55 AM
  #51  
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I don't think tubulars are as hard to deal with as some make them out to be. Having learned to glue tires for cyclocross, road tubulars are hilariously easy. They are much easier to glue securely. That said, I wouldn't do everyday riding and training with them. If I have to deal with a flat, I don't want it to cost $100 and I don't want to have to tiptoe around corners for the rest of the ride. So tubulars are for race day only.

Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
I thought you could use sealant in any tubulars? I now a lot of the cross guys use sealants in challenges with the latex tubes
You can, but I've successfully sealed a cyclocross tubular exactly once - a Specialized Terra (I believe manufactured by Vittoria at the time, but not certain). It works only on the smallest of punctures. I haven't even been successful in sealing Clement/Donnelly tires, which are tubeless. For my money, it's worth a shot if you do happen to puncture, but you can't count on it working.
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Old 02-27-19, 10:40 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by woodcraft View Post
I've had some trouble, especially w/ used wheels/tires that already had sealant,

with the latex tube gluing to itself with the sealant and then blowing out on inflation.

So I carry a little bottle of Stan's but don't use it unless needed.
Yeah - sealant isn't permanent and I believe too many people think it is. I only add it once there's been a problem or if I know the tire is getting old and will only last for the remainder of this season at most. People don't even top off their sealant in their regular tubeless clincher setups and at least that is maintainable.

Originally Posted by grolby View Post
I don't think tubulars are as hard to deal with as some make them out to be. Having learned to glue tires for cyclocross, road tubulars are hilariously easy. They are much easier to glue securely. That said, I wouldn't do everyday riding and training with them. If I have to deal with a flat, I don't want it to cost $100 and I don't want to have to tiptoe around corners for the rest of the ride. So tubulars are for race day only. You can, but I've successfully sealed a cyclocross tubular exactly once - a Specialized Terra (I believe manufactured by Vittoria at the time, but not certain). It works only on the smallest of punctures. I haven't even been successful in sealing Clement/Donnelly tires, which are tubeless. For my money, it's worth a shot if you do happen to puncture, but you can't count on it working.
In general I agree - I just don't bother with them for daily riding but it can easily be done. Luckily my experience with Donnelly has been different. We have saved a lot of tires and races by using sealant but I don't add it until there is already a problem. We use Orange Endurance so that it lasts the longest we can get it to last. They have large particles in it so it tends to seal a lot of tires that Cafe Latex wouldn't. Yes I have had some that just won't seal. I absolutely agree with your last statement - totally worth trying it but you can't count on it working.

I seal about 30-40 a year for cross and have maybe 5-6 that won't seal. Usually have large cuts. On the tubed ones it's probably opposite. The fun fact about sealing like a challenge is that when the sealant comes out of the hole int he tube it will search for wherever there is a gap in the casing (which is in many places as they aren't sealed for the most part). You'll see it bubbling out of all sorts of places. Thing is if you then get it to seal (refill it a couple of times and let it sit for a day or so). then it's damn near bombproof as the inside of the casing has become sealed as well.
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Old 02-27-19, 12:09 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
*facepalm*

In the modern era many of the tubulars we use are tubeless tubulars. Tubulars that have no inner-tube meaning you can run sealant.
Which tubulars would be tubeless?

Are you you talking about the Tufo’s or the Continental Grand Prix 4000 tubulars, the ones where the outer casing is not a “sew up” but more of a vulcanized laminated construction? I thought that all of these still have an inner tube.

I’m just seeking clarification. Could you name a “tubular” tire that uses no inner tube or are you referring to tubeless clinchers?
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Old 02-27-19, 12:21 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post


Which tubulars would be tubeless?

Are you you talking about the Tufo’s or the Continental Grand Prix 4000 tubulars, the ones where the outer casing is not a “sew up” but more of a vulcanized laminated construction? I thought that all of these still have an inner tube.

I’m just seeking clarification. Could you name a “tubular” tire that uses no inner tube or are you referring to tubeless clinchers?
Tufo for sure.

Donnelly tires are tubeless tubulars. I sell 50-150 a year. They are manufactured in the Tufo factory but so are a lot of others.

Maxxis entire lineup of tubulars this year are tubeless in construction.

More are headed that way. Donnelly took over the cross market because of their ability to be sealed.
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Old 02-27-19, 03:24 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by grolby View Post
I don't think tubulars are as hard to deal with as some make them out to be. Having learned to glue tires for cyclocross, road tubulars are hilariously easy. They are much easier to glue securely. That said, I wouldn't do everyday riding and training with them. If I have to deal with a flat, I don't want it to cost $100 and I don't want to have to tiptoe around corners for the rest of the ride. So tubulars are for race day only.



You can, but I've successfully sealed a cyclocross tubular exactly once - a Specialized Terra (I believe manufactured by Vittoria at the time, but not certain). It works only on the smallest of punctures. I haven't even been successful in sealing Clement/Donnelly tires, which are tubeless. For my money, it's worth a shot if you do happen to puncture, but you can't count on it working.
I have ridden Vittoria Rally tubulars for years and they don’t cost $ 100.00; $20 - $ 30.00 apiece. I have ridden centuries after flatting 20 miles in and never have concerns about rolling a replacement.
This comment is yet again another by someone who does not actually ride tubulars on a regular basis.
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Old 02-27-19, 03:31 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
Tufo for sure.

Donnelly tires are tubeless tubulars. I sell 50-150 a year. They are manufactured in the Tufo factory but so are a lot of others.

Maxxis entire lineup of tubulars this year are tubeless in construction.

More are headed that way. Donnelly took over the cross market because of their ability to be sealed.
This interesting! I will have to research the Donnelly brand. I don’t ride cyclocross, just road.
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Old 02-27-19, 03:36 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post


This interesting! I will have to research the Donnelly brand. I don’t ride cyclocross, just road.
You probably know them as clement, the name change was recent
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Old 02-28-19, 10:34 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
You probably know them as clement, the name change was recent
Recent being a relative term - it was 1.5 years ago.

Of note - was talking to Donn Kellogg (the Donn in Donnelly) at CABDA a few weeks back. He specifically asked me how the name change went over. I gave him my standard spiel I would give customers when they ask what changed : "Nothing has changed except a hot patch. It's the same tire from the same factory with the same compounds/casing, etc." He said, "that's great that's what I was hoping people were getting out there" then i had to inform him of how the rest of the conversation would usually go...

Customer: "I see. Yeah that makes sense. So what's really different with them now?"
Me: "Nothing except the hot patch/label."
C: "But they aren't Clement anymore."
M: "Yeah that was just a trade name that they were licensing. It helped them get some name recognition in the beginning but they've established themselves so well that they no longer need to pay the licensing fees - that were going up substantially."
C: "So they aren't Clement anymore. What's new with these Donnelleys?"
M: "Absolutely nothing. It is still the same tire. Only the graphics changed. One shipment was Clement and the next said Donnelley. That's it."
C: "Oh I see. I think I understand. So you can't get the Clement tires anymore?"
M: *sigh*
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Old 02-28-19, 12:14 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by waters60 View Post


I have ridden Vittoria Rally tubulars for years and they don’t cost $ 100.00; $20 - $ 30.00 apiece. I have ridden centuries after flatting 20 miles in and never have concerns about rolling a replacement.
This comment is yet again another by someone who does not actually ride tubulars on a regular basis.
I have ridden Vittoria Rally tubulars too.
They are cheap and also ride like it. Slow and dead feeling.
A good clincher rides much better, but would cost a bit more.
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Old 02-28-19, 12:35 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by cruiserhead View Post
Tubulars are cycling's record player.
Some appreciate the quirks, nuance and rituals but most just want and need a mp3 and some ear buds.

Also, I love watching beginner glue jobs try to corner hard.
You put that really well.
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Old 02-28-19, 01:12 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
Recent being a relative term - it was 1.5 years ago.

Of note - was talking to Donn Kellogg (the Donn in Donnelly) at CABDA a few weeks back. He specifically asked me how the name change went over. I gave him my standard spiel I would give customers when they ask what changed : "Nothing has changed except a hot patch. It's the same tire from the same factory with the same compounds/casing, etc." He said, "that's great that's what I was hoping people were getting out there" then i had to inform him of how the rest of the conversation would usually go...

Customer: "I see. Yeah that makes sense. So what's really different with them now?"
Me: "Nothing except the hot patch/label."
C: "But they aren't Clement anymore."
M: "Yeah that was just a trade name that they were licensing. It helped them get some name recognition in the beginning but they've established themselves so well that they no longer need to pay the licensing fees - that were going up substantially."
C: "So they aren't Clement anymore. What's new with these Donnelleys?"
M: "Absolutely nothing. It is still the same tire. Only the graphics changed. One shipment was Clement and the next said Donnelley. That's it."
C: "Oh I see. I think I understand. So you can't get the Clement tires anymore?"
M: *sigh*
closeout clements were a great deal last year though as new labelled stock arrived.
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Old 02-28-19, 07:56 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
I have ridden Vittoria Rally tubulars too.
They are cheap and also ride like it. Slow and dead feeling.
A good clincher rides much better, but would cost a bit more.
I rode Corsas back in the 80’s when they were “ affordable “ at $45.00 or so each. I did not notice a big difference when I switched to Rally’s as Corsas got too expensive.
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Old 03-01-19, 03:11 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
I rode tubulars exclusively for 22 years and a lot of miles. (All non-goathead territory.) 3 seasons of racing, decades of commuting, All my touring, many day rides. I used glues that set up hard for open racing, Tubasti for everything else including club racing. Tubasti does not set up hard. You can peel off your flatted tire, mount your spare and in a couple of miles, it's on pretty good. A huge plus is that the tire change takes 5 minutes. 5 minutes in the dark, in the rain, in the snow, in parts of town where you worry for your bike (and maybe your health).

I've been riding clinchers the past 20-25 years. They've gotten a lot better. But I also have rolled a clincher off the rim after a blowout. Crash cost me a collarbone, several ribs and an acre of skin. And I was only going ~25 mph. We have plenty of hills here where close to 50 is possible for leafs like me. I never want to see that crash going fast but I have blown tubulars at 40+. Heart stoppers but except for that, no big deal, even in front.

Tubulars are a commitment; a way of life, but there are very real benefits that don't show up in in test results.

Ben
Exactly!
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Old 03-01-19, 03:19 AM
  #64  
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I have been using Tufo Elite Road 700 x 25s for many many years. I use their glue tape and sealant and have had a total of 3 flats in nearly 20 years. The ride quality of tubulars are very nice and better tubulars even more so. I will be trying tubless on my gravel bike and see how it feels; pretty good most likely.
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Old 03-01-19, 11:47 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
I just went to the Vittoria website and looked at their tubulars. The 28c Corsa Competition Race look a lot like the Clement Paris-Roubaix BITD. I"m drooling. Unfortunately I just put a roof on my house, so I have to suffer through the open Corsa G+ tires I have now. I like that the G+ is on their tubulars too. Not surprised at all. I have no idea what the "magic" of the G+ is, but the G+ is a game changer. Better combination of great rolling, great grip, long wear and fewer punctures than IO have ever seen in my 50 years of riding. (Yes, I have ridden tires that could better the G+ - at one of those 4 aspects, but not match them at 2, 3 or 4 of them. Open Paves out grip the G+ in the wet - at the expense of everything else.)
,,,

Ben
I use the corsa G+ rear and speed front. They are fast. About as good as the Veloflex

I needed an emergency stop on a downhill when a car passed me then wanted to stop and turn... I braked hard enough to lock up the rear wheel and skid which took off most of the rubber which killed it. It already had a few thousand miles tho

For a winter or wet set I would prefer the Pave or equivalent rear tire for better grip. I previously used the old Vittoria Pave and got many thousands of miles on those, using caffelatex sealant
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Old 03-01-19, 12:36 PM
  #66  
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I've always loved riding fast though switchback, who doesn't? I'm pretty fearless about it. I mean, gravity will get you 45 mph without pedaling through the hairpin at Washington Pass. I've never felt that tubeless was lacking.
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Old 03-01-19, 05:57 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
I've always loved riding fast though switchback, who doesn't? I'm pretty fearless about it. I mean, gravity will get you 45 mph without pedaling through the hairpin at Washington Pass. I've never felt that tubeless was lacking.
This thread (and Psimet's posts) remind me why I have memories of going through corners at unreal speeds I would never do now. Yes I was young and foolish. Yes I was in a peleton and that was how fast you went. But I was also ridding those magic carpets that clinchers cannot hope to match. (We never knew how fast we were going. Pre-computer. But at Smuggler's Notch, the local cop had to do 60 on the straights to stay ahead of us. We weren't braking for the corners.)

Ben
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Old 03-02-19, 05:39 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by waters60 View Post


I have ridden Vittoria Rally tubulars for years and they don’t cost $ 100.00; $20 - $ 30.00 apiece. I have ridden centuries after flatting 20 miles in and never have concerns about rolling a replacement.


A $30 tubular ain't worth riding.

Originally Posted by waters60 View Post
This comment is yet again another by someone who does not actually ride tubulars on a regular basis.
OK thanks for the feedback.
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Old 03-02-19, 05:44 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by waters60 View Post

I rode Corsas back in the 80’s when they were “ affordable “ at $45.00 or so each. I did not notice a big difference when I switched to Rally’s as Corsas got too expensive.
FYI $45 in 1985 is basically equivalent to $100 today.
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Old 03-04-19, 11:07 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
This thread (and Psimet's posts) remind me why I have memories of going through corners at unreal speeds I would never do now. Yes I was young and foolish. Yes I was in a peleton and that was how fast you went. But I was also ridding those magic carpets that clinchers cannot hope to match. (We never knew how fast we were going. Pre-computer. But at Smuggler's Notch, the local cop had to do 60 on the straights to stay ahead of us. We weren't braking for the corners.)

Ben
I keep going back to a quote a buddy just told me about. He showed up to a Superweek race back in the day (can't remember the course but one of the Wisco ones with a long descent). Mechanic from one of the pro teams there saw him before his race. He was a newly "senior" at the time. Asks him what he has on the front. "A 53."

Mechanic tosses him a 54 or 56. "Here - don't get dropped on the downhill."

As we age our races get faster and the mountains get higher. I get it but yeah...that speed is why we are roadies. it is something that you either get or you don't. you don't have to race to get it either but you don't really know what fast is until you race. Seriously.

Thanks for the comment.


Originally Posted by grolby View Post
A $30 tubular ain't worth riding.
^ - this. It's like pulling a $10 clincher out of the clearance bin at Performance after they had run their fire sale for a couple of months. "this one any good?" *facepalm*
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Old 03-04-19, 02:02 PM
  #71  
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I bought some of those Vittoria Rallys. They're lumpy, heavy, and stiff. I carry a preglued one as a flat replacement if I ride tubulars on a training ride, but that's about all I'd use it for.
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Old 09-17-19, 03:42 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
...

I've been riding clinchers the past 20-25 years. They've gotten a lot better. But I also have rolled a clincher off the rim after a blowout. Crash cost me a collarbone, several ribs and an acre of skin. And I was only going ~25 mph. We have plenty of hills here where close to 50 is possible for leafs like me. I never want to see that crash going fast but I have blown tubulars at 40+. Heart stoppers but except for that, no big deal, even in front.

Tubulars are a commitment; a way of life, but there are very real benefits that don't show up in in test results.

Ben
psimet2001, I just saw the article in VeloNews on sharp mold edges on carbon clincher rims cutting into tire casings. Wow! Yes, we can all break out the sandpaper and smooth our rims and brevent that, but still - another failure that can have really bad consequences.

https://www.velonews.com/2019/09/bik...yrenees_500757

Not a factor for me; I"m still on those archaic aluminum jobs, but still ...

At the Alpenrose Challenge a couple of months ago, a fellow was selling some Campy hubbed tubular wheels. I didn't not note either the rim or hubs as I was in no place to make the $$ jump. Got a lucky break recently and am considering giving him a call. (He seemed completely straight up. We didn't talk price but I suspect it would be fair. Are there Campy road hubs to shy away from? CF tubular rims? If I make the jump, these would be my good wheels and I would rebuild older wheels with aluminum ~400gm rims for every day. (My bikes are DT friction shifting so cog numbers don't matter. Currently on 9-speed Campy. Can I use the 9-speed cogs with 10-speed spacers and use my current assortment? Yes, the 19-21-23 carrier cogs won't work.

Ben
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Old 09-17-19, 04:09 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
Yeah - sealant isn't permanent and I believe too many people think it is. I only add it once there's been a problem or if I know the tire is getting old and will only last for the remainder of this season at most. People don't even top off their sealant in their regular tubeless clincher setups and at least that is maintainable.



In general I agree - I just don't bother with them for daily riding but it can easily be done. Luckily my experience with Donnelly has been different. We have saved a lot of tires and races by using sealant but I don't add it until there is already a problem. We use Orange Endurance so that it lasts the longest we can get it to last. They have large particles in it so it tends to seal a lot of tires that Cafe Latex wouldn't. Yes I have had some that just won't seal. I absolutely agree with your last statement - totally worth trying it but you can't count on it working.

I seal about 30-40 a year for cross and have maybe 5-6 that won't seal. Usually have large cuts. On the tubed ones it's probably opposite. The fun fact about sealing like a challenge is that when the sealant comes out of the hole int he tube it will search for wherever there is a gap in the casing (which is in many places as they aren't sealed for the most part). You'll see it bubbling out of all sorts of places. Thing is if you then get it to seal (refill it a couple of times and let it sit for a day or so). then it's damn near bombproof as the inside of the casing has become sealed as well.
So have you had any luck getting sidewall punctures to seal? I had a poorly executed bunnyhop onto a curb the other week at cx practice and put 3 holes in my new PDX tubular. Was able to plug the one in the tread with a dynaplug but the ones in the sidewall keep opening up even after the hold air for awhile. Can I patch?
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Old 09-17-19, 05:54 PM
  #74  
grolby
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A sidewall cut is generally considered a death sentence for a tubeless tire, sadly. With a tubeless clincher, you can patch the inside and it might hold for a while but it will eventually fail. With a tubeless tubular, you don't even have that option.
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Old 09-17-19, 07:05 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by grolby View Post
A sidewall cut is generally considered a death sentence for a tubeless tire, sadly. With a tubeless clincher, you can patch the inside and it might hold for a while but it will eventually fail. With a tubeless tubular, you don't even have that option.
Pretty much what I'm thinking. Already looking for a replacement before my next race
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