Zwift without smart trainer
03-05-19, 08:33 AM
#26
Senior Member
Yeah, Zwift on a dumb trainer even with a PM, Cadence, HR is not even close to being hit with actual gradients. Funny story: I use smart rollers (with PM, HR, Cad), just yesterday I was on Zwift and I was recovering on a decent in a big gear, going fast not paying attention looking at my front wheel with my hands on the tops (not hoods). The next climb approached and I was caught unprepared. The hill hit hard (steeeep), I had to power through at 500+ watts the whole way. I was wrecked afterwards, but I would have never have gone that hard had I been prepared. So you are probably thinking why didn't I just change gears? Well, because smart rollers, I'm fighting to stay upright and keep rolling. I was pulling hard on the tops because that's where my hands were when I was caught and pressing hard on the pedals. It was too steep to ease back and I wasn't going to stop.
Rollers and Zwift was an engaging combo -- you just have to remember not to turn or lean with your avatar on the screen. My rollers didn't have added resistance, so I spun out my top gear at around 200 watts. All I could do was easy spins, but I think this was really useful training. It was sometimes frustrating when Zwift had me on a hill, and all I could do onscreen was crawl along, so I tried to always pick the flatest courses to go with my flat power output.
After about 2 months or so of that, I got a smart trainer. It's fun. Erg mode automatically optimizes the resistance for the power output of a specified interval if you're in workout mode in Zwift. It takes a little getting used to. Shifting gears is counterproductive. You just pedal any gear you're in, and it'll work out how hard to push back.
One other thought, if you're just riding the Zwift course and using the changing resistance of the virtual hills, you can adjust how real the gradient changes feel. There's a slider in the menu, and I think the default is something like 50 percent. If you crank it up to 100, the speed you see on the screen will really reflect whatever the virtual gradient is -- so you can coast downhill and pickup speed, but you'll work more to cover distance uphill.
03-05-19, 08:48 AM
#27
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I didn't know smart rollers existed. I started using Zwift on regular rollers, an old set of Kreitlers, with a Stages powermeter.
Rollers and Zwift was an engaging combo -- you just have to remember not to turn or lean with your avatar on the screen. My rollers didn't have added resistance, so I spun out my top gear at around 200 watts. All I could do was easy spins, but I think this was really useful training. It was sometimes frustrating when Zwift had me on a hill, and all I could do onscreen was crawl along, so I tried to always pick the flatest courses to go with my flat power output.
After about 2 months or so of that, I got a smart trainer. It's fun. Erg mode automatically optimizes the resistance for the power output of a specified interval if you're in workout mode in Zwift. It takes a little getting used to. Shifting gears is counterproductive. You just pedal any gear you're in, and it'll work out how hard to push back.
One other thought, if you're just riding the Zwift course and using the changing resistance of the virtual hills, you can adjust how real the gradient changes feel. There's a slider in the menu, and I think the default is something like 50 percent. If you crank it up to 100, the speed you see on the screen will really reflect whatever the virtual gradient is -- so you can coast downhill and pickup speed, but you'll work more to cover distance uphill.
Rollers and Zwift was an engaging combo -- you just have to remember not to turn or lean with your avatar on the screen. My rollers didn't have added resistance, so I spun out my top gear at around 200 watts. All I could do was easy spins, but I think this was really useful training. It was sometimes frustrating when Zwift had me on a hill, and all I could do onscreen was crawl along, so I tried to always pick the flatest courses to go with my flat power output.
After about 2 months or so of that, I got a smart trainer. It's fun. Erg mode automatically optimizes the resistance for the power output of a specified interval if you're in workout mode in Zwift. It takes a little getting used to. Shifting gears is counterproductive. You just pedal any gear you're in, and it'll work out how hard to push back.
One other thought, if you're just riding the Zwift course and using the changing resistance of the virtual hills, you can adjust how real the gradient changes feel. There's a slider in the menu, and I think the default is something like 50 percent. If you crank it up to 100, the speed you see on the screen will really reflect whatever the virtual gradient is -- so you can coast downhill and pickup speed, but you'll work more to cover distance uphill.
03-05-19, 01:01 PM
#28
Old Legs
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No, it comes with the UK power cord.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I bought that adapter.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I bought that adapter.
03-05-19, 03:16 PM
#29
Senior Member
Is zwift worth it without smart trainer? Just with regular trainer, but with power meter (speed, cadence, and hr too of course).
I guess the feedback from zwift won't be there, but how important is it?
Mainly just looking to make work outs on a trainer "easier" and more "fun". Right now I watch TV, but tend to space out, power drops, miss power targers.
Thanks
I guess the feedback from zwift won't be there, but how important is it?
Mainly just looking to make work outs on a trainer "easier" and more "fun". Right now I watch TV, but tend to space out, power drops, miss power targers.
Thanks
Never tried one, but to me all the "smart trainers" and all their bells and whistles (even going so far as to simulate climbing with moving the front wheel up and down, and vibrations of cobbles etc.) are not really necessary. If you are THAT desperate to "simulate" real cycling, then just man up and go bike outside in the cold or rain.
03-05-19, 09:04 PM
#30
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I had a dumb trainer, fluid, for several years. Popped a seal and lost all the fluid. Decided to try a "smart" trainer, a Wahoo Kicker Snap. Tried Zwift, but it and I didn't hit off for a variety of reasons. Then tried Rouvy, much better for me. Fits my style, tend to ride solo, but also has some features that challenge you. The augmented rides are pretty slick. I'm going to try and upload one of my longer, local rides with video when it warms up a bit.
03-05-19, 10:30 PM
#31
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One other thought, if you're just riding the Zwift course and using the changing resistance of the virtual hills, you can adjust how real the gradient changes feel. There's a slider in the menu, and I think the default is something like 50 percent. If you crank it up to 100, the speed you see on the screen will really reflect whatever the virtual gradient is -- so you can coast downhill and pickup speed, but you'll work more to cover distance uphill.
03-06-19, 12:19 AM
#32
RacingBear
Thread Starter
I use Zwift with a "dumb" trainer, and I think it is still pretty cool. It is still more motivating and fun than staring at a wall. Especially the "races" are fun and engaging.
Never tried one, but to me all the "smart trainers" and all their bells and whistles (even going so far as to simulate climbing with moving the front wheel up and down, and vibrations of cobbles etc.) are not really necessary. If you are THAT desperate to "simulate" real cycling, then just man up and go bike outside in the cold or rain.
Never tried one, but to me all the "smart trainers" and all their bells and whistles (even going so far as to simulate climbing with moving the front wheel up and down, and vibrations of cobbles etc.) are not really necessary. If you are THAT desperate to "simulate" real cycling, then just man up and go bike outside in the cold or rain.
03-06-19, 08:11 AM
#33
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Wow, Ordered a Tacx Vortex Smart trainer from Chainreaction in the UK, (Monday) Got notice from DHL, will be delivered Friday.
03-06-19, 08:29 AM
#34
Senior Member
I don't think this is correct. The value adjusts how much/little resistance your trainer gives you when there is an incline/decline, but your speed in the program is still based on your power. Putting it to 0% basically makes it like you're riding on a dumb trainer, you'll go slower up the hills, but you won't ever need to shift gears.
My impression is based on going down, say, a 4 percent grade on the default 50 percent setting. You coast to a stop instead of accelerating. In 100 percent mode, it seems like you keep your speed even without pedaling. But even a 2 percent grade, in real life, would keep you going without pedaling. I'm not sure, I haven't played around with it all that much.
03-06-19, 08:43 AM
#35
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That could be; trying to figure out how the virtual physics are being applied is a little confusing for me. I was under the impression that it does both -- that is, if you have it at 100 percent, it'll give you more resistance and decrease your speed for a given wattage going up the hills, and boost your speed and decrease resistance going down.
My impression is based on going down, say, a 4 percent grade on the default 50 percent setting. You coast to a stop instead of accelerating. In 100 percent mode, it seems like you keep your speed even without pedaling. But even a 2 percent grade, in real life, would keep you going without pedaling. I'm not sure, I haven't played around with it all that much.
My impression is based on going down, say, a 4 percent grade on the default 50 percent setting. You coast to a stop instead of accelerating. In 100 percent mode, it seems like you keep your speed even without pedaling. But even a 2 percent grade, in real life, would keep you going without pedaling. I'm not sure, I haven't played around with it all that much.
03-06-19, 09:11 AM
#36
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That could be; trying to figure out how the virtual physics are being applied is a little confusing for me. I was under the impression that it does both -- that is, if you have it at 100 percent, it'll give you more resistance and decrease your speed for a given wattage going up the hills, and boost your speed and decrease resistance going down.
My impression is based on going down, say, a 4 percent grade on the default 50 percent setting. You coast to a stop instead of accelerating. In 100 percent mode, it seems like you keep your speed even without pedaling. But even a 2 percent grade, in real life, would keep you going without pedaling. I'm not sure, I haven't played around with it all that much.
My impression is based on going down, say, a 4 percent grade on the default 50 percent setting. You coast to a stop instead of accelerating. In 100 percent mode, it seems like you keep your speed even without pedaling. But even a 2 percent grade, in real life, would keep you going without pedaling. I'm not sure, I haven't played around with it all that much.
You're close. Increasing "trainer difficulty" tells Zwift how close to approximate the slope of the incline. So having "trainer difficulty" at 50% and going up a 8% incline means Zwift will simulate a 4% incline. Setting trainer difficulty to 100% means it tries to simulate the full 8% slope. It has nothing to do with setting power for you, only resistance. You apply power to overcome the resistance of the incline (slope) and higher trainer difficulty typically means more shifting to maintain cadence. The power you apply to ride that slope is what is used by Zwift to determine your speed, based on your rider weight (watts/kg).
03-06-19, 09:12 AM
#37
Senior Member
I see. So your avatar rides the gradient on the screen no matter what -- it takes 350 watts for 2:20 to get up a hill, or the equivalent amount of work, no matter what your trainer difficulty setting. The setting just changes how dynamic the resistance in the smart trainer changes in response to what's happening onscreen. Thanks for the vid and explanation.
The descents were what confused me. It seems like in the virtual Zwift world, you come to rest when coasting, even when you're pointed down a 2-3 percent grade -- my hope and false impression was that dialing up the difficulty setting changed that. I also haven't figured out how to fill up jersey pockets like this guy, or overlay a video of myself on the display. The green screen is probably sold separately, and part of the reason he gets so many thumbs up.
The descents were what confused me. It seems like in the virtual Zwift world, you come to rest when coasting, even when you're pointed down a 2-3 percent grade -- my hope and false impression was that dialing up the difficulty setting changed that. I also haven't figured out how to fill up jersey pockets like this guy, or overlay a video of myself on the display. The green screen is probably sold separately, and part of the reason he gets so many thumbs up.
03-06-19, 10:14 AM
#38
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Is zwift worth it without smart trainer? Just with regular trainer, but with power meter (speed, cadence, and hr too of course). [...] Mainly just looking to make work outs on a trainer "easier" and more "fun". Right now I watch TV, but tend to space out, power drops, miss power targers.
A smart trainer is definitely more fun than a dumb trainer with power meter but -- for me -- a dumb trainer+PM is *more* than halfway to a smart trainer. Since I already had a dumb trainer and a PM, my additional cost was about $15 to buy an ANT+ dongle. To get the additional "fun" would have been a lot more than $15, but I suppose whether it's worth it depends on you and your bank balance.
03-06-19, 10:19 AM
#39
Senior Member
Well if you are looking just at "fun factor" as you suggest in your OP, a dumb trainer on zwift will already be way more fun than watching TV or staring at the wall.
Is a smart trainer more fun than a dumb trainer on Zwift? Sure, probably. Is it $1000 worth of fun? I'd say probably not.
But as others have said, depends how much $1000 is worth to you. If money is no object, sure, it is more fun.
Is a smart trainer more fun than a dumb trainer on Zwift? Sure, probably. Is it $1000 worth of fun? I'd say probably not.
But as others have said, depends how much $1000 is worth to you. If money is no object, sure, it is more fun.
03-06-19, 10:25 AM
#40
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I see. So your avatar rides the gradient on the screen no matter what -- it takes 350 watts for 2:20 to get up a hill, or the equivalent amount of work, no matter what your trainer difficulty setting. The setting just changes how dynamic the resistance in the smart trainer changes in response to what's happening onscreen. Thanks for the vid and explanation.
The descents were what confused me. It seems like in the virtual Zwift world, you come to rest when coasting, even when you're pointed down a 2-3 percent grade -- my hope and false impression was that dialing up the difficulty setting changed that. I also haven't figured out how to fill up jersey pockets like this guy, or overlay a video of myself on the display. The green screen is probably sold separately, and part of the reason he gets so many thumbs up.
The descents were what confused me. It seems like in the virtual Zwift world, you come to rest when coasting, even when you're pointed down a 2-3 percent grade -- my hope and false impression was that dialing up the difficulty setting changed that. I also haven't figured out how to fill up jersey pockets like this guy, or overlay a video of myself on the display. The green screen is probably sold separately, and part of the reason he gets so many thumbs up.
If your speed hits 35 mph+ and you stop pedaling your avatar goes into "supertuck" mode, which is a neat trick when you're trying to catch up to the folks who dropped me on a group ride.
Your pockets fill up when other riders give you a "ride on".
I'm not sure what overlay you're referring to (can't watch videos at work) but there are some third party services that will do things like put an overlay on top of your screen or let you watch other riders or do all sorts of nifty things. I've never played with them, just heard about them. Check out zwiftinsider.com it usually has pretty good info on a lot of those types of things.
03-06-19, 11:06 AM
#41
Senior Member
Observation after switching to a Kickr after 3 seasons on a Kinetic dumb trainer/pm: on the smart trainer I'm finding on rolling courses I'm able to put out significantly more power on the short punchy grades similar to real life (Central park perimeter loop, eg) and getting stronger for it - vs having to voluntarily shift up each time in order to simulate the greater resistance needed to increase power on the constant curve of the dumb fluid trainer, if that makes sense? Whether its psychological or laziness, probably both! (often I just stand up and muscle the gear I'm in if it's short enough similar to how I ride IRL). I'm relatively light (and old) and put out puny watts compared to many but this has given me a slight edge in Zwift rides and races. The transition to outdoor riding for the first time after awhile indoors on a smart trainer also feels "less shocking" as I'm well prepared for any grade changes.
On the longer Zwift alpine climbs or flats the difference between Smart and dumb is less pronounced - the gradient changes tend to be more spread out and it's a little more "set it and forget it" for most of it.
On the longer Zwift alpine climbs or flats the difference between Smart and dumb is less pronounced - the gradient changes tend to be more spread out and it's a little more "set it and forget it" for most of it.
03-06-19, 11:14 AM
#42
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I use Zwift with a "dumb" trainer, and I think it is still pretty cool. It is still more motivating and fun than staring at a wall. Especially the "races" are fun and engaging.
Never tried one, but to me all the "smart trainers" and all their bells and whistles (even going so far as to simulate climbing with moving the front wheel up and down, and vibrations of cobbles etc.) are not really necessary. If you are THAT desperate to "simulate" real cycling, then just man up and go bike outside in the cold or rain.
Never tried one, but to me all the "smart trainers" and all their bells and whistles (even going so far as to simulate climbing with moving the front wheel up and down, and vibrations of cobbles etc.) are not really necessary. If you are THAT desperate to "simulate" real cycling, then just man up and go bike outside in the cold or rain.
A smart trainer is definitely more fun than a dumb trainer with power meter but -- for me -- a dumb trainer+PM is *more* than halfway to a smart trainer. Since I already had a dumb trainer and a PM, my additional cost was about $15 to buy an ANT+ dongle. To get the additional "fun" would have been a lot more than $15, but I suppose whether it's worth it depends on you and your bank balance.
Well if you are looking just at "fun factor" as you suggest in your OP, a dumb trainer on zwift will already be way more fun than watching TV or staring at the wall.
Is a smart trainer more fun than a dumb trainer on Zwift? Sure, probably. Is it $1000 worth of fun? I'd say probably not.
But as others have said, depends how much $1000 is worth to you. If money is no object, sure, it is more fun.
Is a smart trainer more fun than a dumb trainer on Zwift? Sure, probably. Is it $1000 worth of fun? I'd say probably not.
But as others have said, depends how much $1000 is worth to you. If money is no object, sure, it is more fun.
03-06-19, 11:37 PM
#43
Senior Member
But you don't HAVE to spend $1000 for a smart trainer. $240 for that TACX Vortex smart trainer isn't really much more than a dumb fluid trainer, cheaper than a few.
03-07-19, 09:57 AM
#44
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Good point. Some smart trainers are not that expensive. That said, there are differences in how responsive smart trainers are, and how much power they can dissipate. I had an early Tacx ergometer whose load generator even I could overmatch, so when my cadence was either very slow or very fast in ergo mode the load generator give up and wave a white flag. In addition, when I would start a sprint in trainer mode, the resistance was way too low at the start. There are ways to measure trainer response but most reviews don't really discuss it.
03-07-19, 10:29 AM
#45
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You're close. Increasing "trainer difficulty" tells Zwift how close to approximate the slope of the incline. So having "trainer difficulty" at 50% and going up a 8% incline means Zwift will simulate a 4% incline. Setting trainer difficulty to 100% means it tries to simulate the full 8% slope. It has nothing to do with setting power for you, only resistance. You apply power to overcome the resistance of the incline (slope) and higher trainer difficulty typically means more shifting to maintain cadence. The power you apply to ride that slope is what is used by Zwift to determine your speed, based on your rider weight (watts/kg).
03-07-19, 10:56 AM
#46
Senior Member
What the difficulty setting also achieves is widening your gear ratio. If you are riding a 10% grade in real life you may struggle in your 34/25 gear, where with the same gear a 5% grade would be easier to spin. To spin that easily on a 10% grade may require a 34/32 gear (or even a larger rear cog). My trainer only has a 11/25 tooth cassette and I'd never make it up a 10% grade without the 50% setting, not on my old legs anyway.
03-08-19, 01:12 AM
#47
RacingBear
Thread Starter
Well if you are looking just at "fun factor" as you suggest in your OP, a dumb trainer on zwift will already be way more fun than watching TV or staring at the wall.
Is a smart trainer more fun than a dumb trainer on Zwift? Sure, probably. Is it $1000 worth of fun? I'd say probably not.
But as others have said, depends how much $1000 is worth to you. If money is no object, sure, it is more fun.
Is a smart trainer more fun than a dumb trainer on Zwift? Sure, probably. Is it $1000 worth of fun? I'd say probably not.
But as others have said, depends how much $1000 is worth to you. If money is no object, sure, it is more fun.
03-08-19, 01:15 AM
#48
RacingBear
Thread Starter
OK, thanks. Sounds like getting a dongle and trying it just with dump trainer for now is worth it.
03-08-19, 09:59 AM
#49
I pedal in my sleep...
I think you'll get all you need out of it, at least for a good while. I've spent two seasons on that roller/PM combo and I'm still good with that. When I got to the point of thinking about a smart trainer, I looked at prices and bought a cross bike instead.
03-10-19, 03:10 AM
#50
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My experience is that it works fine without a smart trainer, but it is way more fun with a smart trainer. Also shifting gears is counter intuitive without a smart trainer (you have to shift down when riding uphill, in contrast to what you would do when actually riding uphill), a smart trainer makes it all a bit more realistic.