Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Steel Frame Bike Options?

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Steel Frame Bike Options?

Old 05-11-19, 06:12 PM
  #51  
on the path
Señor Blues
 
on the path's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: upstate NY
Posts: 1,578

Bikes: Cannondale CAAD 10, Breezer Venturi Custom Build, IRO Singlespeed

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post

This is the one I ride. With SRAM Red and Ksyrium USTs it's 17 lb 13 oz. I love this bike. But, since Guru is out of business you'd have to find one on EBAY. Actually there is one in CT w/Dura Ace for $1800. Mine is a 55 ST and 55 TT.
White bar tape, please.
on the path is offline  
Old 05-11-19, 06:39 PM
  #52  
Abe_Froman
Senior Member
 
Abe_Froman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,519

Bikes: Marin Four Corners, 1960's Schwinn Racer in middle of restoration, mid 70s Motobecane Grand Touring, various other heaps.

Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9073 Post(s)
Liked 26 Times in 25 Posts
Originally Posted by dkyser View Post
Thanks for that info, I need to learn more about geometry of bicycle.

What is the turn around time on a custom frame?
I'm not sure, though i would imagine a few weeks is reasonable, with great variation depending on the builder and how busy they are.

More importantly though...custom is not better. Heck, I bet in many cases custom would be objectively WORSE due to less refinement and practice in design and construction. Modern producers of bike frames are very good at what they do, and from what I can tell also very rarely make mistakes.

What custom is, is custom. You can get something you cant get anywhere else. At least not pre build anyway. Shaped like a chimp? Custom could accomodate your comically long arms. Got a thing for a blinding paint job nobody else has? Custom. NEED 4 flask holders brazed on? Custom.

I just wouldnt expect the bike to be lighter, ride better, or last longer if you dont require anything unique though.
Abe_Froman is offline  
Likes For Abe_Froman:
Old 05-11-19, 09:05 PM
  #53  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 8,171

Bikes: '87 Schwinn Prelude, Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara/Centurion Ironman, '18 Diamondback Syncr, '18 handmade steel roadbike

Mentioned: 75 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2890 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 112 Times in 78 Posts
Originally Posted by Abe_Froman View Post
More importantly though...custom is not better. Heck, I bet in many cases custom would be objectively WORSE due to less refinement and practice in design and construction. Modern producers of bike frames are very good at what they do, and from what I can tell also very rarely make mistakes.
Mmm, come again? A custom steel frame can be spec'd with tubing specific to the rider which is a significant difference from generic stock frames which almost always error on the side of overbuilt to ensure frame failures dont happen regardless of rider size.
Not sure how that could be viewed as worse since its, you know, better.

As for fabrication- custom frames often have smooth thinned lugs, or beautiful carbon and titanium exo-grid tubes, or braze-ons positionally where you want.
I can't remember ever seeing a handbuilt small batch frame that was sold and not of excellent quality.
Not sure how any of that is less refinement since its, you now, not less.


Fully agree that modern bike production is in general very good and few mistakes are made.
mstateglfr is offline  
Old 05-11-19, 09:54 PM
  #54  
79pmooney
A Roadie Forever
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 6,809

Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder

Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1597 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 37 Times in 30 Posts
If you can forgo the discs, there's another option. Don't know what you will find but, stop regularly at coops and used bike stores and look for older bikes. Most will be built up and ready to ride. You will probably want to make a few changes but the price will be so much lower that won't matter so much. There are many older bikes from small builders out there being sold at prices way below their ride quality.

Ben
79pmooney is offline  
Old 05-11-19, 10:39 PM
  #55  
fuji_owner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 142

Bikes: 2010 Fuji Roubaix ACR 3.0; 2012 Seven Axiom SL; Surly Cross Check

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
I love my Surly Cross Check. It's very versatile. You could put 25mm tires and have a fast bike, or you can put 32mm tires and rack and panniers to do grocery shopping or touring.
fuji_owner is offline  
Likes For fuji_owner:
Old 05-12-19, 05:09 AM
  #56  
bruce19
Senior Member
 
bruce19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Lebanon (Liberty Hill), CT
Posts: 6,186

Bikes: CAAD 12, MASI Gran Criterium S, Colnago World Cup CX & Guru steel

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 817 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times in 34 Posts
Originally Posted by on the path View Post
White bar tape, please.
It actually had white bar tape until I replaced it last year ago. It also has a "no rise" stem now. I should take an updated pic. Love this bike.
bruce19 is offline  
Old 05-12-19, 05:17 AM
  #57  
bruce19
Senior Member
 
bruce19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Lebanon (Liberty Hill), CT
Posts: 6,186

Bikes: CAAD 12, MASI Gran Criterium S, Colnago World Cup CX & Guru steel

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 817 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times in 34 Posts
Originally Posted by Abe_Froman View Post
More importantly though...custom is not better. Heck, I bet in many cases custom would be objectively WORSE due to less refinement and practice in design and construction.
How are you defining "better?" There are people who have worked for decades at their craft and for companies like Indy Fab, Seven, Zen, Guru, Waterford, Gunnar, etc. who will make a custom frame to your dimensions. To me that would be "better" than some "small, medium, large" off the shelf size. Unless you happen to be one of those people that perfectly fit that generic sizing. But, I'm not sure how you were defining "better" so we may be looking at two different aspects.
bruce19 is offline  
Old 05-12-19, 05:29 AM
  #58  
bruce19
Senior Member
 
bruce19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Lebanon (Liberty Hill), CT
Posts: 6,186

Bikes: CAAD 12, MASI Gran Criterium S, Colnago World Cup CX & Guru steel

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 817 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times in 34 Posts
Originally Posted by on the path View Post
White bar tape, please.
Taken this morning.
bruce19 is offline  
Old 05-12-19, 06:12 AM
  #59  
Abe_Froman
Senior Member
 
Abe_Froman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,519

Bikes: Marin Four Corners, 1960's Schwinn Racer in middle of restoration, mid 70s Motobecane Grand Touring, various other heaps.

Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9073 Post(s)
Liked 26 Times in 25 Posts
Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
How are you defining "better?" There are people who have worked for decades at their craft and for companies like Indy Fab, Seven, Zen, Guru, Waterford, Gunnar, etc. who will make a custom frame to your dimensions. To me that would be "better" than some "small, medium, large" off the shelf size. Unless you happen to be one of those people that perfectly fit that generic sizing. But, I'm not sure how you were defining "better" so we may be looking at two different aspects.
My main point was that a custom bike does not mean better. It's just a different size. Or different options and spec thatyou wouldnt normally be able to find.

Thus isnt meant to denigrate custom frame builders...its both an art and a craft. I just dont believe that, assuming good fit, a custom artisan frame will outperform a good quality mass produced one in any way. There is value in other places...but not performance.

I would assume custom frame builders would agree with that. Their bikes are one a of a kind. Handbuilt. With an aesthetic the customer chose, and whatever odd niceties he wanted brazed on. And, if a customer had odd body proportions, custom frame tube lengths can overcome that problem. But only to the point to make the bike as good a fit as most people have on stock bikes.

Its like having a tailor make a suit for a 1 armed person. It's not objectively better, it just has 1 less sleeve.

Last edited by Abe_Froman; 05-12-19 at 06:17 AM.
Abe_Froman is offline  
Old 05-12-19, 07:29 AM
  #60  
fuji_owner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 142

Bikes: 2010 Fuji Roubaix ACR 3.0; 2012 Seven Axiom SL; Surly Cross Check

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by dkyser View Post
I may look at Titanium also.



$2000-$3500




I was afraid this was the case.

I want disc brakes for sure.

As far as geometry, I love the geometry of my Domane so more of a touring style.
Beware of titanium frames that are on the lower end of the price range. Titanium is not easy to weld, it needs an inert gas environment and great skill to weld correctly. This makes good Ti frames prices go up. I have a beautiful Seven Axiom SL custom Ti bike, and just the frame cost nearly $4000, and adding decent gruppo will take you up to $8000 if not more.

So I would forget about titanium bikes if your total budget is $3500.

If you don't need a custom build, I strongly suggest looking at Surly Cross Check, as I said earlier. Surly makes great frames, and they have a good network of dealers all over the US. Cross Check is more of a touring style but not "sluggish" by any means.
fuji_owner is offline  
Likes For fuji_owner:
Old 05-12-19, 07:46 AM
  #61  
on the path
Señor Blues
 
on the path's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: upstate NY
Posts: 1,578

Bikes: Cannondale CAAD 10, Breezer Venturi Custom Build, IRO Singlespeed

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
Taken this morning.
So we have different preferences. See mine below. And it's a steel frame so it goes with this thread.

on the path is offline  
Old 05-12-19, 07:57 AM
  #62  
fuji_owner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 142

Bikes: 2010 Fuji Roubaix ACR 3.0; 2012 Seven Axiom SL; Surly Cross Check

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Abe_Froman View Post
My main point was that a custom bike does not mean better. It's just a different size. Or different options and spec thatyou wouldnt normally be able to find.


Thus isnt meant to denigrate custom frame builders...its both an art and a craft. I just dont believe that, assuming good fit, a custom artisan frame will outperform a good quality mass produced one in any way. There is value in other places...but not performance.


I would assume custom frame builders would agree with that. Their bikes are one a of a kind. Handbuilt. With an aesthetic the customer chose, and whatever odd niceties he wanted brazed on. And, if a customer had odd body proportions, custom frame tube lengths can overcome that problem. But only to the point to make the bike as good a fit as most people have on stock bikes.


Its like having a tailor make a suit for a 1 armed person. It's not objectively better, it just has 1 less sleeve.

Having a tailor made suit is the definition of an objectively better product for the person for whom it's being made. The tailor is not hand-waving, he's taking actual "objective" measurements of the person to make the product fit the person most optimally.


You don't need to have odd proportions to get a custom frame. It's just the question of how much you are willing to compromise on performance or comfort. I might be fine with jeans that are a bit too tight or a bit too loose at the waist (and use a belt). Or I might want to get my jeans altered to fit my waist perfectly. Obviously, the altered jeans would be better. If I could get jeans made for my specific measurements, then that would be best.


With a bike, there is only so much that can be altered and adjusted on a stock size. I definitely see the reasoning behind custom frames, but they can also get really expensive. I got one custom Ti frame, and I can't afford to get another custom bike. I still have 2 cheaper stock size frames that are not as ideal as my custom bike for performance or comfort, but I still love riding them.


It's just as with custom tailored suits, you probably have one expensive custom tailored suit that you like the best, but at the same time, you have other stock size suits of different styles that are cheaper but still look good.

You know, it's funny, there was a time when getting clothes meant going to a tailor who would take your measurements and stitch something for you. That was the only way. So in the original supply chain model, everyone always got custom clothes, and they weren't "more" expensive, they just cost what they cost. When mass production began, that's when they had to compromise because they couldn't make clothes for every single person, so the customers had to compromise/choose between stock sizes.

Last edited by fuji_owner; 05-12-19 at 08:23 AM.
fuji_owner is offline  
Old 05-12-19, 08:05 AM
  #63  
bruce19
Senior Member
 
bruce19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Lebanon (Liberty Hill), CT
Posts: 6,186

Bikes: CAAD 12, MASI Gran Criterium S, Colnago World Cup CX & Guru steel

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 817 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times in 34 Posts
Originally Posted by on the path View Post
So we have different preferences. See mine below. And it's a steel frame so it goes with this thread.

Very nice.
bruce19 is offline  
Old 05-12-19, 08:15 AM
  #64  
Abe_Froman
Senior Member
 
Abe_Froman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,519

Bikes: Marin Four Corners, 1960's Schwinn Racer in middle of restoration, mid 70s Motobecane Grand Touring, various other heaps.

Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9073 Post(s)
Liked 26 Times in 25 Posts
Originally Posted by fuji_owner View Post
Having a tailor made suit is the definition of an objectively better product for the person for whom it's being made. The tailor is not hand-waving, he's taking actual "objective" measurements of the person to make the product fit the person most optimally.


You don't need to have odd proportions to get a custom frame. It's just the question of how much you are willing to compromise on performance or comfort. I might be fine with jeans that are a bit too tight or a bit too loose at the waist (and use a belt). Or I might want to get my jeans altered to fit my waist perfectly. Obviously, the altered jeans would be better. If I could get jeans made for my specific measurements, then that would be best.


With a bike, there is only so much that can be altered and adjusted on a stock size. I definitely see the reasoning behind custom frames, but they can also get really expensive. I got one custom Ti frame, and I can't afford to get another custom bike. I still have 2 cheaper stock size frames that are not as ideal as my custom bike for performance or comfort, but I still love riding them.


It's just as with custom tailored suits, you probably have one expensive custom tailored suit that you like the best, but at the same time, you have other stock size suits of different styles that are cheaper but still look good.
I feel like we're just arguing semantics and definitions. You say a custom sized frame is 'better,' I say it's an equal quality frame that just happens to be a better size.

In regards to fit...sure I'm completely fine with using a 'belt' on my bikes. Raising the seatpost...sliding the saddle the 10mm forward of center on the rail to the ideal position. I dont think avoiding those types of adjustments is reason alone for a custom frame.
Abe_Froman is offline  
Old 05-12-19, 08:19 AM
  #65  
Sy Reene
Advocatus Diaboli
 
Sy Reene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 4,663

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2175 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 23 Times in 23 Posts
As I do think it unlikely there will be much on the shelf to look at, much less find in your size to try out, that online makes some sense.

I'd be perhaps looking at the Holdsworth line from PlanetX, eg
https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/CBHOLC...stom-road-bike

or the Ribble offerings previously mentioned, eg
Ribble CGR 725
Sy Reene is offline  
Old 05-12-19, 08:33 PM
  #66  
dkyser
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: St Louis Missouri
Posts: 326

Bikes: 18 Trek Domane SL 6 Disk, 17 Specialized Sequoia Elite

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thoughts on this Jamis Renegade
dkyser is offline  
Old 05-12-19, 08:47 PM
  #67  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Got a castle in - er, Minneapolis, that's where I dwell!
Posts: 24,660

Bikes: 2016 Diamondback Haanjo, 2018 Trek Domane SL5 Gravel

Mentioned: 295 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8768 Post(s)
Liked 98 Times in 56 Posts
I really like Jamis (I used to own a Xenith), but $3k seems high to me (steel, SRAM hydro 1x). I know that you want a steel bike, but hell - I'd *much* rather have the carbon fiber Renegade Expert with 105 Hydro for $400 less.
WhyFi is offline  
Old 05-12-19, 09:10 PM
  #68  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 8,171

Bikes: '87 Schwinn Prelude, Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara/Centurion Ironman, '18 Diamondback Syncr, '18 handmade steel roadbike

Mentioned: 75 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2890 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 112 Times in 78 Posts
Originally Posted by dkyser View Post
Thoughts on this Jamis Renegade
The renegade series is really well thought out and designed.
The escapade frameset for $850 is a great deal.

The built escapade...meh. SRAM 1x isnt what I want in a road bike(that's this forum) and don't want for a gravel bike or bikepacking bike.
But that's me.
mstateglfr is offline  
Old 05-12-19, 09:18 PM
  #69  
dkyser
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: St Louis Missouri
Posts: 326

Bikes: 18 Trek Domane SL 6 Disk, 17 Specialized Sequoia Elite

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
The renegade series is really well thought out and designed.
The escapade frameset for $850 is a great deal.

The built escapade...meh. SRAM 1x isnt what I want in a road bike(that's this forum) and don't want for a gravel bike or bikepacking bike.
But that's me.
Thanks, I am considering this bike and the All City Cosmic Stallion.
I really want to stay with disk brakes. If I want to upgrade soon the Surly Midnight Special also is a possibility.
dkyser is offline  
Old 05-12-19, 09:18 PM
  #70  
jideta 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked 53 Times in 30 Posts
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I really like Jamis (I used to own a Xenith), but $3k seems high to me (steel, SRAM hydro 1x). I know that you want a steel bike, but hell - I'd *much* rather have the carbon fiber Renegade Expert with 105 Hydro for $400 less.
I agree.

When we had a Jamis dealer here I almost got a Satellite I think it was called.

Bianchi Orso w/105 is $2100. I almost got that but it didn't come in celeste.

Trek 520 is $1700. Frame $699. I looked hard at the Trek but decided that if I was going to build a frame I'd go Crosscheck.
jideta is offline  
Old 05-13-19, 07:52 AM
  #71  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 8,171

Bikes: '87 Schwinn Prelude, Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara/Centurion Ironman, '18 Diamondback Syncr, '18 handmade steel roadbike

Mentioned: 75 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2890 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 112 Times in 78 Posts
Originally Posted by dkyser View Post
Thanks, I am considering this bike and the All City Cosmic Stallion.
I really want to stay with disk brakes. If I want to upgrade soon the Surly Midnight Special also is a possibility.
Look at geometry in your size for the AC CS, Jamis Renegade, and Surly Midnight Special. How different are the HTA and STA frame anges, bb drop, fork rake and trail, etc? Those 5 measurements affect how a bike feels way more than if something is made from 631 or 853 steel. Or in this case, those 5 measurements affect how a bike feels way more than if its made from private label ACS(i think?), reynolds 631, or generic double butted 4130.
Oh, and the Surly is designed to be a 650b road+ bike. Not sure if that matters to you, but FYI in case you hadnt noticed.
mstateglfr is offline  
Likes For mstateglfr:
Old 05-13-19, 10:28 AM
  #72  
superdex
staring at the mountains
 
superdex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Parker, CO
Posts: 4,265

Bikes: Fairdale Goodship, Spesh Crux

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 274 Post(s)
Liked 17 Times in 13 Posts
Originally Posted by Abe_Froman View Post
Raising the seatpost...sliding the saddle the 10mm forward of center on the rail to the ideal position. I dont think avoiding those types of adjustments is reason alone for a custom frame.
I don't see it as avoiding those things, it's more like when adjusting 'the belt' isn't enough. Or you have enough experience to communicate riding experience and handling preferences that may lead towards something custom. Or you have the desire to have something unique and singly yours. Or all three.
superdex is offline  
Old 05-13-19, 04:56 PM
  #73  
Ilfalco2
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 26
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by rgmn View Post
^^^^^^^
this
Ilfalco2 is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Superdan
Classic & Vintage
12
08-11-15 03:33 PM
Mac_48
Road Cycling
6
11-13-09 10:46 AM
Plow13
Road Cycling
1
10-31-08 09:29 PM
skinnyboy
Road Cycling
24
09-06-08 04:47 PM
patentcad
Road Cycling
11
01-19-07 07:07 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.