Road Cycling ďIt is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.Ē -- Ernest Hemingway

Heart rate oddness?

Old 05-21-19, 05:51 PM
  #51  
redlude97
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Late to this thread but come on...
Originally Posted by base2 View Post
The more fit you are, the harder it is to hold a higher heart rate for longer.
Originally Posted by base2 View Post
You go faster for the same effort = Lower heart rate for same performance. Same-same. Equivalent.
Just admit that these two statements are not the same...so you're either really bad at communication or backtracking
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Old 05-21-19, 06:08 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
Just admit that these two statements are not the same...so you're either really bad at communication or backtracking
Oh come on @redlude97. It's not that complicated. Here, I'll explain base2's rationale another way... If you saved up $10M in your retirement account, you are no longer able to save a lot of money. There - do you get it now? Oh sure, you might see it as not "needing" to save a lot of money now. But, two those words - "need" and "able" are synonyms... right base2?
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Old 05-21-19, 08:46 PM
  #53  
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Because everyone knows when you are super fit your heart rate NEVER comes down at the first hint of letting of or stopping for a stop light. So your average stays pinned at 205 Beats per minute for the whole ride and for hours, no days later. And some more days if you are elite-super...Right. </sarcasm>

Why would a heart rate rapidly return to normal drag down your average? I dunno, math? Probably the same math that has a stoplight drag down your average speed. But, whaddoiknow? All that mathy schooly stuff & I'm still just a big dummy.

You are all being obtuse.

Yeah, it's easier to get it up to X BPM for sprint/hill/whatever, keeping it there longer is harder because at the slightest relief like when you get to the top or you bridged the gap, or whatever it will recover. How is this wrong? Please explain. Maybe you all go 100% effort 100% of the time & never let off for any reason, ever? That's a dumb way to race & train. Maybe being a small sample size of 1, & having a heart that recovers from 95% while at a stop sign or stop light or at the top of a hill makes me an anomaly somehow & skewed my experience? I think it's odd other trained athletes wouldn't recover.

Racing is not general Joe Schmoe riding & mountain biking is a different mode of event that causes the body to get energy by other means other than aerobic respiration.

The context of the original post was "I have no medical condition, I ride road, and I can't get my HR on hills like I used to." So in that context, I answered for an endurance athlete engaged in an endurance aerobic activity. Not an anaerobic instantaneous effort activity such as mountain biking. Not a CAT 4 racer who is about strategy & anaerobic sprints....But an endurance athlete operating in an aerobic capacity.

Am I wrong that increased fitness/adaption makes for less cardiovascular load & increased metabolic efficiency for a given performance level? (No.)
Am I wrong that quicker recovery makes for lower average heart rate? (No.)
Am I wrong that it takes increased effort/motivation to sustain a higher heartrate against the quicker better adapted & more frequent recoveries? (No.)
Did I not post a pic full of all sorts of fancy data that showed as much? (Yes, I did.)

That pic, if you bothered to look at it, shows that at a few watts normalized power less than FTP...with an average power that was 87% FTP, my average hr was 81% of max because the ride was broken up by a variety or real world factors. Do you have another reason for the 6 & 19% (respectively) disparity of heart rate vs power?

Geez, even the peak heart rate of 93% max (180 bpm) all the times I did it, yields a whopping 20% of the time spent in power zone 7 (which is defined as all wattages above 328 watts or 116% FTP) and still, what was my average hr again? Oh? Not 224 bpm as 116% would seem to mean in your world? Hmmm......

If I'm so full of **it, Show your data. Seriously. You show me that after 20,000 miles of work, experience, training & adaption that your rides are never affected by real world factors & your heart rate never decreases when given a chance to rest. Do it. Plain ol' average me with my big big dummy 3.25 watts per kilogram and big dummy 52 ml/kg VO2 from decades of smoking must be a real special scientific mystery. I'm sure all the data I collected over a thousand rides must all be bogus because it disagrees with some internet nobodys incomplete understanding of "fitness" or deliberate misunderstanding of what I wrote. (But, but! It sounds wrong...)

Like I said, this is stupid. Sorry I ever spoke up in an effort to be kind & used my brain to speak the conventional truth from the inverse (that is also true.)

Anybody can throw out a quote from a professional quote from a world class athlete. The tricky thing is understanding what it actually means.

If A=B & B=C, Then C=A, and all that. Logical equivalents.
Mr mountain biker gives A=B
Mr CAT 4 gives B=C
And everybody agrees.
I gave you C=A in the context the OP framed, I show my data and you jump my Shiz.

Whatever.


6GjMLjB_d by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr

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Old 05-21-19, 09:02 PM
  #54  
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It's too bad that the usual suspects who know absolutely nothing about the subject jump in and argue nonsense. If you don't know anything about it, just don't post. Now that's an idea.

I happen to know all about this because I've been tracking my HR in hard training for over 20 years, every single workout I've done, plus morning resting and morning standing HRs, plus now HRV. Why? Because more information is better than less information and training is an information-heavy pastime.

So.

This is normal. The OP probably isn't overtrained yet, just overcooked. What one does in his situation is take 2 days off, then go out on the bike, warm up, and hit a steep hill. Does HR come up normally?
Yes: You're good to go for now.
No: pedal easy on the way back home, take another day off, try it again.
Doesn't work again, add one day to the OFF period, try it again.
Repeat the above until you get a Yes.

He should have started doing this a month ago or so, but didn't know any better. Hopefully he can get it fixed without taking a long period off the bike. Probably can.

It's not a cardiologist thing. They don't know anything about it. They're doctors, and their correct attitude is, "If you're not sick or diseased, get out of my office, you're taking up time that I could use treating people who need it."

The fact that the OP is riding his bike fine, not seeing Afib, just not fast anymore argues for the cardiologist's point.

Been there, done that several times, got it fixed, try not to do that anymore.
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Old 05-22-19, 02:48 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
It's too bad that the usual suspects who know absolutely nothing about the subject jump in and argue nonsense. If you don't know anything about it, just don't post. Now that's an idea.

I happen to know all about this because I've been tracking my HR in hard training for over 20 years, every single workout I've done, plus morning resting and morning standing HRs, plus now HRV. Why? Because more information is better than less information and training is an information-heavy pastime.

So.

This is normal. The OP probably isn't overtrained yet, just overcooked. What one does in his situation is take 2 days off, then go out on the bike, warm up, and hit a steep hill. Does HR come up normally?
Yes: You're good to go for now.
No: pedal easy on the way back home, take another day off, try it again.
Doesn't work again, add one day to the OFF period, try it again.
Repeat the above until you get a Yes.

He should have started doing this a month ago or so, but didn't know any better. Hopefully he can get it fixed without taking a long period off the bike. Probably can.

It's not a cardiologist thing. They don't know anything about it. They're doctors, and their correct attitude is, "If you're not sick or diseased, get out of my office, you're taking up time that I could use treating people who need it."

The fact that the OP is riding his bike fine, not seeing Afib, just not fast anymore argues for the cardiologist's point.

Been there, done that several times, got it fixed, try not to do that anymore.
That sounds like a plan. how this whole subject got to splitting atoms and such high tech things makes my mind boggle
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Old 05-22-19, 04:52 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post

Whatever.
I lost count of all the logical fallacies you employed in that massive diatribe of silliness.
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Old 05-22-19, 04:52 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Grinstead View Post
That sounds like a plan. how this whole subject got to splitting atoms and such high tech things makes my mind boggle
It got that way when someone was wrong on the internet.
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Old 05-22-19, 05:35 AM
  #58  
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Clearly, you need a new bike. Unless your wife/partner is a cyclist or a doctor, they won't know the difference.
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Old 05-22-19, 05:53 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by metz1295 View Post
Clearly, you need a new bike. Unless your wife/partner is a cyclist or a doctor, they won't know the difference.
A new bike will just slow his ventricular rate down further.
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Old 05-22-19, 06:59 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Grinstead View Post
Thankyou for some of your kind replies. i have not been able to get to the forum for a while so rest assured i am not scared off. . Let me try to give you some more information to chew on although i suspect my legs are just tired and cant work hard enough to get my HR up so i am resting for a while and i shall see in a few days time. However here is a bit more i can give you.
I am 55 and my max HR was 155 and still is i think with my FTP at 236 W. however i am no climber as with that FTP i am 14 stone but i like to think a quite fit 14 stone . On the flat i can hammer along nicely but as per big guys the weight draws me back on the climbs.
But this should make little difference to how my heart should react and obviously trying to get up the incline should increase my hr as it did last year at around 150 but this year on the same course it just plateaus out at 135?. The wattage to climb this section is the same as last year but with a higher HR last year.
So one could say that i am fitter than last year and looking at my flat times they are quicker than last year. But it is strange to me that the times going up that hill are slower and i blame this on my HR just flat lining at 135.
So it flat lines at around 130sh on the flat but more power is being put down and so faster speeds than last year but hit that hill when last it would pop up to 155 and get me up at a quicker time no matter how much power i am trying to put down it flat lines at 135sh. It's as if this year i am on beta blockers . It is annoying as i know i have more power but the heart just will not pump enough blood to my pins.
It is the same on the turbo by the way where no matter what power i put down it plateaus out at 135??
Although one thing did cross my mind that recently i have not been doing any VO2 workouts which can be lost so easily at my age but i would not have thought by so much

many i have spoken to say this could be a good or a bad thing so rest is required and see what happens when i try in a few days
You aren't mentioning cadence...

Are you spinning away on these hills to lower the effort on your legs?
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Old 05-22-19, 07:03 AM
  #61  
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I have come to the conclusion i am probably over cooked. yesterday i did a flat 40 mile course i have done many times. Usually i average out at about 18mph and around 200w but i decided to just slow right down to 12mph and about 90 W average. The great thing was i saw sights i never thought existed but it was tough after about 20 miles to keep the speed down but i did. the average HR was 107 .
This morning i woke up and my legs and arms felt that i had run a marathon the day before (well not quite but you get my drift).
It seems that i will have to do a lot more resting than i thought which is very hard for me as for all my life i have regularly trained. Perhaps i have to finally except i am no spring chicken anymore.
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Old 05-22-19, 07:05 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
Am I wrong that increased fitness/adaption makes for less cardiovascular load & increased metabolic efficiency for a given performance level?
Yes, this is fundamentally incorrect. Here is some background reading: No Differences in Cycling Efficiency Between World-Class and Recreational Cyclists
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Old 05-22-19, 08:05 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
It's too bad that the usual suspects who know absolutely nothing about the subject jump in and argue nonsense. If you don't know anything about it, just don't post. Now that's an idea.

I happen to know all about this because I've been tracking my HR in hard training for over 20 years, every single workout I've done, plus morning resting and morning standing HRs, plus now HRV. Why? Because more information is better than less information and training is an information-heavy pastime.

So.

This is normal. The OP probably isn't overtrained yet, just overcooked. What one does in his situation is take 2 days off, then go out on the bike, warm up, and hit a steep hill. Does HR come up normally?
Yes: You're good to go for now.
No: pedal easy on the way back home, take another day off, try it again.
Doesn't work again, add one day to the OFF period, try it again.
Repeat the above until you get a Yes.

He should have started doing this a month ago or so, but didn't know any better. Hopefully he can get it fixed without taking a long period off the bike. Probably can.

It's not a cardiologist thing. They don't know anything about it. They're doctors, and their correct attitude is, "If you're not sick or diseased, get out of my office, you're taking up time that I could use treating people who need it."

The fact that the OP is riding his bike fine, not seeing Afib, just not fast anymore argues for the cardiologist's point.

Been there, done that several times, got it fixed, try not to do that anymore.
This is the correct answer.

OP is 50+ and needs a few days off the bike.
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Old 05-22-19, 08:06 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
Because everyone knows when you are super fit your heart rate NEVER comes down at the first hint of letting of or stopping for a stop light. So your average stays pinned at 205 Beats per minute for the whole ride and for hours, no days later. And some more days if you are elite-super...Right. </sarcasm>

Why would a heart rate rapidly return to normal drag down your average? I dunno, math? Probably the same math that has a stoplight drag down your average speed. But, whaddoiknow? All that mathy schooly stuff & I'm still just a big dummy.

You are all being obtuse.

Yeah, it's easier to get it up to X BPM for sprint/hill/whatever, keeping it there longer is harder because at the slightest relief like when you get to the top or you bridged the gap, or whatever it will recover. How is this wrong? Please explain. Maybe you all go 100% effort 100% of the time & never let off for any reason, ever? That's a dumb way to race & train. Maybe being a small sample size of 1, & having a heart that recovers from 95% while at a stop sign or stop light or at the top of a hill makes me an anomaly somehow & skewed my experience? I think it's odd other trained athletes wouldn't recover.

Racing is not general Joe Schmoe riding & mountain biking is a different mode of event that causes the body to get energy by other means other than aerobic respiration.

The context of the original post was "I have no medical condition, I ride road, and I can't get my HR on hills like I used to." So in that context, I answered for an endurance athlete engaged in an endurance aerobic activity. Not an anaerobic instantaneous effort activity such as mountain biking. Not a CAT 4 racer who is about strategy & anaerobic sprints....But an endurance athlete operating in an aerobic capacity.

Am I wrong that increased fitness/adaption makes for less cardiovascular load & increased metabolic efficiency for a given performance level? (No.)
Am I wrong that quicker recovery makes for lower average heart rate? (No.)
Am I wrong that it takes increased effort/motivation to sustain a higher heartrate against the quicker better adapted & more frequent recoveries? (No.)
Did I not post a pic full of all sorts of fancy data that showed as much? (Yes, I did.)

That pic, if you bothered to look at it, shows that at a few watts normalized power less than FTP...with an average power that was 87% FTP, my average hr was 81% of max because the ride was broken up by a variety or real world factors. Do you have another reason for the 6 & 19% (respectively) disparity of heart rate vs power?

Geez, even the peak heart rate of 93% max (180 bpm) all the times I did it, yields a whopping 20% of the time spent in power zone 7 (which is defined as all wattages above 328 watts or 116% FTP) and still, what was my average hr again? Oh? Not 224 bpm as 116% would seem to mean in your world? Hmmm......

If I'm so full of **it, Show your data. Seriously. You show me that after 20,000 miles of work, experience, training & adaption that your rides are never affected by real world factors & your heart rate never decreases when given a chance to rest. Do it.
Despite trying hard as hell to stop bleeding out of my eyeballs and wishing for even a moment of respite, my heart just wouldnt listen despite all of my training. Notice the stochastic nature of the power and cadence, plenty of "rests". Also no way I could sustain this level of effort when I first started out. 35 BTW so pretty damn near HR max for the entire race
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Old 05-22-19, 08:51 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
Despite trying hard as hell to stop bleeding out of my eyeballs and wishing for even a moment of respite, my heart just wouldnt listen despite all of my training. Notice the stochastic nature of the power and cadence, plenty of "rests". Also no way I could sustain this level of effort when I first started out. 35 BTW so pretty damn near HR max for the entire race
Yeah, I was like that too the first year or 2 I rode bikes. Everybody is before their bodies adapt and their hearts become more responsive to the load in real time. Train for a few years. For the same effort you'll get that same rise in under a city block or less & it won't stay there the instant you back off.

It took you nearly a mile (around 4 minutes) for your heart to respond & it never decreased even with all the coasting & drops in cadence (time at effort=0) I too, thought it meant fitness, what it meant was that in spite of all my effort, I wasn't fit (trained) yet.

I'm guessing you are what? 21, 22? Go pull Montreaux, Winery hill, Norway hill, Hollywood, Mission or Hurricane ridges. Go pull a time trial on HWY202 to Northbend for sustained endurance aerobic activity & tell me how you hold up. Indeed, it's the only way I've found to hold an average like yours for any time in recent years.

Apples vs Oranges. Mine looks like yours when I snowboard or hit Duthie because it is a different *kind* of activity.

Good luck to you.
Aaron.

Last edited by base2; 05-22-19 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 05-22-19, 08:56 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
Yeah, I was like that too the first year or 2 I rode bikes. Everybody is before their bodies adapt and their hearts become more responsive to the load in real time. Train for a few years. For the same effort you'll get that same rise in under a city block or less & it won't stay there the instant you back off.

It took you nearly a mile (around 4 minutes) for your heart to respond & it never decreased even with all the coasting & drops in cadence (time at effort=0) I too, thought it meant fitness, what it meant was I wasn't fit (trained) yet.

Good luck to you.
Aaron.
Actually my delayed HR was due to fatigue, came into this race with a CTL around -25 and the fact that I was staged near the back during the start which bottlenecks. Im guessing you have no idea how a cyclocross race works if you think your HR can actually come down during microrests. I guess my 10+ years of riding and my base/build/specialty blocks isnt real training though.
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Old 05-22-19, 09:17 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
Yeah, I was like that too the first year or 2 I rode bikes. Everybody is before their bodies adapt and their hearts become more responsive to the load in real time. Train for a few years. For the same effort you'll get that same rise in under a city block or less & it won't stay there the instant you back off.

It took you nearly a mile (around 4 minutes) for your heart to respond & it never decreased even with all the coasting & drops in cadence (time at effort=0) I too, thought it meant fitness, what it meant was that in spite of all my effort, I wasn't fit (trained) yet.

I'm guessing you are what? 21, 22? Go pull Montreaux, Winery hill, Norway hill, Hollywood, Mission or Hurricane ridges. Go pull a time trial on HWY202 to Northbend for sustained endurance aerobic activity & tell me how you hold up. Indeed, it's the only way I've found to hold an average like yours for any time in recent years.

Apples vs Oranges. Mine looks like yours when I snowboard or hit Duthie because it is a different *kind* of activity.

Good luck to you.
Aaron.
"Froomeís data points to an unusually low heart rate.

But he insisted: ĎMy heart rate doesnít go very high. I get to about 168 and thatís going flat-out. I canít get much higher. Itís very low. A lot of my team-mates get over 200. I donít really understand why, myself. I know Iíve got a large lung capacity, over eight litres. Average capacity for my height and weight is nearer six litres.í"

Sending Froomy and his teammates to you for some expert advice.

If his team isn't training enough or training properly, they need to know stat.
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Old 05-22-19, 09:36 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by 69chevy View Post
"Froomeís data points to an unusually low heart rate.

But he insisted: ĎMy heart rate doesnít go very high. I get to about 168 and thatís going flat-out. I canít get much higher. Itís very low. A lot of my team-mates get over 200. I donít really understand why, myself. I know Iíve got a large lung capacity, over eight litres. Average capacity for my height and weight is nearer six litres.í"

Sending Froomy and his teammates to you for some expert advice.

If his team isn't training enough or training properly, they need to know stat.
Well, maybe I should go race then if Froome & I have the same problem.

Ok. Maybe you are all right that I may be an outlier & maybe really am an anomaly.

(Now that I think about it, I've never had an x-ray tech that could get all of my lungs in one take)

I still think it's weird that your legs drive your hearts the way they do & your cardiovascular systems don't keep up, but I guess that's variation amongst people, I guess.

Aaron.
(Who skipped out on work & is off to the co-op)
Cheers all.
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Old 05-22-19, 10:13 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
Well, maybe I should go race then if Froome & I have the same problem.

Ok. Maybe you are all right that I may be an outlier & maybe really am an anomaly.

(Now that I think about it, I've never had an x-ray tech that could get all of my lungs in one take)

I still think it's weird that your legs drive your hearts the way they do & your cardiovascular systems don't keep up, but I guess that's variation amongst people, I guess.

Aaron.
(Who skipped out on work & is off to the co-op)
Cheers all.
Come pin a number on down at seward tomorrow. Lots of fun
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Old 05-22-19, 10:31 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by 69chevy View Post
"Froomeís data points to an unusually low heart rate.

But he insisted: ĎMy heart rate doesnít go very high. I get to about 168 and thatís going flat-out. I canít get much higher. Itís very low. A lot of my team-mates get over 200. I donít really understand why, myself. I know Iíve got a large lung capacity, over eight litres. Average capacity for my height and weight is nearer six litres.í"

Sending Froomy and his teammates to you for some expert advice.

If his team isn't training enough or training properly, they need to know stat.
Will the real Froome stand up? That be me then
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Old 05-22-19, 10:39 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Grinstead View Post
That sounds like a plan. how this whole subject got to splitting atoms and such high tech things makes my mind boggle
Are you kidding? Bike Forums is a particle accelerator. Splitting atoms is what we do. The Higgs Boson was discovered in a thread about disc brakes.
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Old 05-22-19, 11:09 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
I guess that's variation amongst people, I guess.
Small edit, and now you're speaking an absolute truth.
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Old 05-22-19, 11:45 AM
  #73  
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The big question is how old are you? You don't have to say but I had an angiogram back when I was about 49 and found no blockages. I've also had stress tests and echo cardiograms here and there. Some heart tests are non invasive and can tell you whether or not everything in the heart is working as intended.
I'm having a tough year with training and getting older doesn't help. My wife quit her job where she had fantastic benefits and we're now on mine which suck so there is no more cardiologist work in my future.
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Old 05-22-19, 01:54 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by bakerjw View Post
The big question is how old are you? You don't have to say but I had an angiogram back when I was about 49 and found no blockages. I've also had stress tests and echo cardiograms here and there. Some heart tests are non invasive and can tell you whether or not everything in the heart is working as intended.
I'm having a tough year with training and getting older doesn't help. My wife quit her job where she had fantastic benefits and we're now on mine which suck so there is no more cardiologist work in my future.
If you check back i did say i was 55

Yes, age does suck but you can atleast try to fight it off by staying fit.

Last edited by Grinstead; 05-22-19 at 01:56 PM. Reason: add
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Old 05-22-19, 03:17 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
Yeah, I was like that too the first year or 2 I rode bikes. Everybody is before their bodies adapt and their hearts become more responsive to the load in real time. Train for a few years. For the same effort you'll get that same rise in under a city block or less & it won't stay there the instant you back off.

It took you nearly a mile (around 4 minutes) for your heart to respond & it never decreased even with all the coasting & drops in cadence (time at effort=0) I too, thought it meant fitness, what it meant was that in spite of all my effort, I wasn't fit (trained) yet.

I'm guessing you are what? 21, 22? Go pull Montreaux, Winery hill, Norway hill, Hollywood, Mission or Hurricane ridges. Go pull a time trial on HWY202 to Northbend for sustained endurance aerobic activity & tell me how you hold up. Indeed, it's the only way I've found to hold an average like yours for any time in recent years.

Apples vs Oranges. Mine looks like yours when I snowboard or hit Duthie because it is a different *kind* of activity.

Good luck to you.
Aaron.
Your HR should only spike quickly if you are dumb and surge hard at the start, if you meter your effort it should take mins to get your HR up, Here's a TT I did in the middle of my build block. I can sustain a relatively high HR for a long time now that I'm trained, and as I pointed out previously, and a master's athlete, and a mediocre one at that.
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