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No longer inspecting frames for crash damage

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No longer inspecting frames for crash damage

Old 06-07-19, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
I suppose I did sidetrack the discussion a bit with cars.

But, a lot still applies to bikes.

One of the comments on the Corvette article claims to be by a structural engineer (but not familiar with the Vette), and he is suggesting that this part of the frame would be highly structural.

Even if a good frame could be acquired, it could be a massive undertaking to swap frames.

The circles appear to me to be some kind of a spot weld. And, I've seen other photos/videos of Corvette frames that appear to have traditional MIG/TIG welds, so the alloy is "weldable". However, I'd say that Chevrolet likely does a post heat treating of the entire frame after assembly.

Welding 6061 Aluminum is supposed to reduce strength by about 40%.

Then the question comes whether there is 40% redundancy in the frame design???

Take the car to Joe's body shop, and he'll likely jump in with MIG/TIG, have it welded up, and back on the road within an hour (assuming not too much has to be disassembled to prevent heat damage).

Take the car to a Chevy Dealer, and they won't sign off on anything short of 100% complete frame replacement with all new parts.

Now, the people buying $70,000 brand new Corvettes won't necessarily be the ones making their own backyard repairs.

And, give them a choice between a repair on someone else's dime that is "probably OK", vs "100% back to new"... and they just won't accept the "probably ok" repair.

Take away the middle-man, and make them pay up-front, and the Corvette owner may choose the cheap repair, or to attempt to hide the damage and sell it to some unsuspecting buyer.

That selling to an unsuspecting buyer may be a good reason to "brand titles" even if a vehicle is repaired.

So, as a car owner, are you satisfied with the $100 "Joe's body Shop" repair... or the massive undertaking to swap frames? Or, is nothing short of a new car acceptable?
Agree. Welding 6061 does produce a heat-affected zone (unless post heat-treating). That's why I recommended a weld (better than leaving cracked), and a patch large enough to be out of the heat-affected zone, and attached ("bonded") with structural adhesive, not welded. If we were in the ages before such adhesives, I would do an aircraft-style patch, which involves two concentric rings of rivets at the periphery, with the rivets staggered with respect to each other (the two rings end up looking like a zig-zag stitch). Very commonly used to repair aircraft structures in the pre-adhesive days. I did a similar patch for a large rust hole on the horizontal section of the rocket panel of my car; on an earlier car with a separate frame, I would not have been that picky, but the car was unibody and that area was a critical structural area for crashworthiness.
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Old 06-07-19, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by carlos danger
they built atom bombs, sr71, moon rocket, moon lander all that with common sense and a simply slide ruler. they didn't need any "scanner" to get stuff done.

and i think this is whats missing today: just getting stuff done. by yourself, ringth now.
Hardly. More like stacks of complex formulas in very thick books. A good reference for just the formulas, not any theories or explanations, is Roark's Formula's for Stress and Strain, originally published 1938, still used today, latest edition 1072 pages.

And, lots of model simulations to determine or correlate with formulas ("towing tanks" for ship models, "wind tunnels" for aircraft models), and static load tests. Way back then, even the aircraft companies were lacking in all the knowledge and equipment to do dynamic fatigue and vibration studies and tests, and there were mishaps due to that, catastrophic failures, or vehicles getting out of control due to divergent oscillation. And things going supersonic was/is an entirely different realm, dealing with shock waves, compressible flow, etc. Lots of crashes until things got figured out. Chuck Yeager was lucky not to crash, the plane he used to go over Mach 1 was designed all wrong for it, it was later learned.

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Old 06-07-19, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve B.
If they contact the manufacturer, I assume they will in turn tell the customer to deal with the shop where it was purchased.

I assume at that point the customers only recourse is to have that shop disassemble the bike and return to the manufacturer for inspection. If it passes, it gets sent back to be reassembled. $200 all told ?. Or gets sent back for the customers choice to use/discard/fix. Or maybe a biggie like Trek pulls a “if you send to us for inspection and it fails, we destroy the frame” policy. A CYA policy.

In truth and short of ultrasound or CAT scan, X-Ray, etc.... it’s a bit of a crapshoot for a shop to inspect a carbon frame and declare it to be sound, when in reality you can’t tell what’s really going on under the paint.
^this.

I'd do the same thing if it were my shop. Maybe that's the most honest approach than looking for a crack and pronouncing the frame good when it could be near failure.

J.
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Old 06-08-19, 02:05 PM
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I guess its almost impossible to determine if a frame is "as good as new" without sophisticated equipment, but its not that hard to deem it cracked with almost no equipment.
And thats pretty much what the lbs'es are trying to determine. is it a scratch or a crack? thats it. they are not trying to quantify the level of crackedness. and they dont need to. No reason to.

I feel many people are creating a storm it a drinking glass just because it made out of carbon fiber.

And its kinda funny since this is the best material in the entire universe, proven by science too. so its should not be able to break at all. right.
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Old 06-08-19, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by carlos danger
I guess its almost impossible to determine if a frame is "as good as new" without sophisticated equipment, but its not that hard to deem it cracked with almost no equipment.
And thats pretty much what the lbs'es are trying to determine. is it a scratch or a crack? thats it. they are not trying to quantify the level of crackedness. and they dont need to. No reason to.

I feel many people are creating a storm it a drinking glass just because it made out of carbon fiber.

And its kinda funny since this is the best material in the entire universe, proven by science too. so its should not be able to break at all. right.
Sure and I largely agree.

But you know how this plays out at the shop - someone brings it in, no one finds a crack but there was damage below the paint. Shop pronounces it fine and then it fails soon after and someone gets hurt. So it really is not a good thing to be doing because all the shop can say is “we didn’t find any cracks,” which isn’t really telling you anything at all. And if they tell you it’s fine, then they’re woefully ignorant; point being, they simply don’t know.

I’d respect a shop that referred you on to some one that could make the correct determination. The safety - and legal - issues are substantial.
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Old 06-08-19, 03:24 PM
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Yeah but if the frame is actually cracked it will most likely show up at the surface. since the surface will have to flex slightly more than the more center of the tube, since its in the periphery, bending/flexing is done more at the periphery no matter what tube shape. so its more likely its cracked at the surface and not in the "center" than the other way around. by a factor of like 3,25 million or so.

Only time i have seen stuff cracked under the surface not really showing surface damage is when there was "blunt force truma" and then sometimes the paint is so flexible so it follows the cracked carbon (not very likely though) without indicating any damage. but if you simply squeeze this part it will definitely show up as delamiated. since its soft and weak there. and there will always be some sign of it. otherwise the damage wouldn't have happened in the first place. you just have to be looking carefully. I dont usually work with carbon but i do look for cracks and similar all day long at my job.

I understand they shops want their backs free. but what about the customer??

if you were to send in a scratched frame to the lbs and they send it away. its like 50% chance you wont ever get it back and you will never know why. And i kinda doubt the manufacturers local offices are set up for any kind of hitech non destructive testing. I'm guessing they are just as good as the lbs for determining this.

I however am very proficient in destructive and non destructive testing of anything.
I have have been trained/educated in a fighter plane factory by some of the best carbon guys on this planet, from the lab, so i feel 100% confident inspecting stuff myself. Not all people may be like that though.
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Old 06-08-19, 04:41 PM
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Is a brand new frame inspected by an LBS for damage and certified problem-free? After all, it went thru probably multiple shipments (from frame building plant to assembly plant, then all the way oversees in a container to a distributor, then maybe to the LBS. Who knows what goes on in transit and handling
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Old 06-08-19, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by carlos danger
Yeah but if the frame is actually cracked it will most likely show up at the surface. since the surface will have to flex slightly more than the more center of the tube, since its in the periphery, bending/flexing is done more at the periphery no matter what tube shape. so its more likely its cracked at the surface and not in the "center" than the other way around. by a factor of like 3,25 million or so.

Only time i have seen stuff cracked under the surface not really showing surface damage is when there was "blunt force truma" and then sometimes the paint is so flexible so it follows the cracked carbon (not very likely though) without indicating any damage. but if you simply squeeze this part it will definitely show up as delamiated. since its soft and weak there. and there will always be some sign of it. otherwise the damage wouldn't have happened in the first place. you just have to be looking carefully. I dont usually work with carbon but i do look for cracks and similar all day long at my job.

I understand they shops want their backs free. but what about the customer??

if you were to send in a scratched frame to the lbs and they send it away. its like 50% chance you wont ever get it back and you will never know why. And i kinda doubt the manufacturers local offices are set up for any kind of hitech non destructive testing. I'm guessing they are just as good as the lbs for determining this.

I however am very proficient in destructive and non destructive testing of anything.
I have have been trained/educated in a fighter plane factory by some of the best carbon guys on this planet, from the lab, so i feel 100% confident inspecting stuff myself. Not all people may be like that though.
The crack will not always show on the surface because a carbon tube in a frame is not usually of homogeneous composition. Internal fibres can be running in different directions to external ones, thus experiencing different loads and points of failure. They may also be a different carbon with a different modulus of rigidity, again causing different loading throughout the tube wall.
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Old 06-08-19, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
Is a brand new frame inspected by an LBS for damage and certified problem-free? After all, it went thru probably multiple shipments (from frame building plant to assembly plant, then all the way oversees in a container to a distributor, then maybe to the LBS. Who knows what goes on in transit and handling
It actually might not be.

If you look on youtube, there is a an australian guy, that does carbon repairs. I'm guessing he is one of the best ones on this planet. and sometimes he cuts open frames that have been deemed beyond repair, he has to destroy them so he simply slice them open. in 2 halves.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY9..._zbIedQ/videos
Luescher Teknik


He also slice open rims and forks and handlebars iirc.

much gold in there imo.

you be the judge.
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Old 06-08-19, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Dean V
The crack will not always show on the surface because a carbon tube in a frame is not usually of homogeneous composition. Internal fibres can be running in different directions to external ones, thus experiencing different loads and points of failure. They may also be a different carbon with a different modulus of rigidity, again causing different loading throughout the tube wall.
yes fibers running in all directions is the norm, otherwise carbon fiber does not work at all. even though all cabron fibers are all different modulus (stiffness) and strength they are for all practical purposes rock hard. and unrigid.

so if its gonna crack. its not gonna do so from the inside. not a tube that you flex. not gonna happen but you might try to convince me, and its not gonna end up well for you. and not for anyone else with a brain. I'm friends that have been designing and building with carbon since 1985 or so. they design the molds and do QC of the parts.

I really have no horse in the race though since i own 0 carbon bikes. i do own 3 steel and 2 Ti bikes though. and those are dependable materials. if they crack you will know. you can spot it from 1meter away.

god luck with your crabon frame man!
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Old 06-08-19, 06:24 PM
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I dont exactly expect the guys in italy that brazed my frames to outlive me. but they knew the risks and made their choices. thats how it works. but not in china it doesn't. I dont however feel sorry for them. i dont buy stuff from china so i dont contribute to their early demise. my conscience is clean.

no one died for my frames to be built.

Last edited by carlos danger; 06-08-19 at 06:28 PM.
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Old 06-08-19, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by carlos danger
I dont exactly expect the guys in italy that brazed my frames to outlive me. but they knew the risks and made their choices. thats how it works. but not in china it doesn't. I dont however feel sorry for them. i dont buy stuff from china so i dont contribute to their early demise. my conscience is clean.

no one died for my frames to be built.
Where are your components made?
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Old 06-09-19, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by carlos danger
the exact same way as you or i would obvioulsly.

you see a line, then try to make the line wider.. does it get wider with force? yeah, then its cracked.
maybe push your finger into the "line" and see if there is some kind of movement there.

I sometimes wonder if the whole of humanity suddenly went completely nuts.

If you were to present this "problem" to people living in the 50ies, in the US. I'm fairly certain they would have solved it in like 1 minute. just like me. carbon is no different to other frame materials when searching for suspected cracks imo.

But people are afraid of carbon. they don't want to touch the holy carbon, made by the taiwan mass production buddhas.

I'd say if anyone human can make it then anyone human can inspect and determine if its shot. easy as that. and it actually is easy as that.
Originally Posted by carlos danger
you dont need imaging equipment. you need common sense.

they had no "imaging equipment" building the first 50 nuclear/hydrogen bombs. and even if they had it would have been toast. yet they still managed to produce more efficient stuff all the time.
It is obvious you know nothing about carbon and probably less about litigation in the US...You cannot simply use common sense to inspect a carbon frame. I would assume TIHabenero, a professional in the cycling industry, knows more on the subject than most and his shop still had an issue...They are making a wise choice.

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Old 06-09-19, 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by carlos danger
yes fibers running in all directions is the norm, otherwise carbon fiber does not work at all. even though all cabron fibers are all different modulus (stiffness) and strength they are for all practical purposes rock hard. and unrigid.

so if its gonna crack. its not gonna do so from the inside. not a tube that you flex. not gonna happen but you might try to convince me, and its not gonna end up well for you. and not for anyone else with a brain. I'm friends that have been designing and building with carbon since 1985 or so. they design the molds and do QC of the parts.

I really have no horse in the race though since i own 0 carbon bikes. i do own 3 steel and 2 Ti bikes though. and those are dependable materials. if they crack you will know. you can spot it from 1meter away.

god luck with your crabon frame man!
Are you saying that carbon doesn't flex? If so, you need to tell Orbea, who use flexible stays on their full suspension MTBs or Trek who designed their Procaliber MTB with a flexible seat tube...I have one of each and can easily feel the difference. I also have two Bianchi Road bikes that are designed to have different amounts of flex because they are used for different purposes...
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Old 06-21-19, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by noodle soup
You really don't understand how CF frames are analyzed for damage.
I understand there are a number of high tech and quite expensive methods of investigating the structural integrity of composites, which provide more information for an engineer to make a theoretical assessment.

But someone without the inclination or means to afford such techniques can perform a practical assessment to a pretty reasonable degree of confidence, albeit insufficient for legal purposes.

Originally Posted by Kite005
See if anything happens? Then they say you broke it. Loads? Maybe but what kind of loads in what directions? So many variables there that would really be tough I think.
In addition to the usual visual and tap and squeeze inspection, do the following:
Put the front wheel against a wall and give it a shove. Lean the bike over with the brakes on and stand on each pedal, give it a bounce. Put both wheels against the base of a wall, a hand each on seat and stem, and twist the frame. Put both hands on the seat, bend over so your belly is resting on your hands, and shove down. Any bike worth half a damn, except perhaps a tiny handful of bespoke ultimate weight weenie machines, can easily withstand such tests from all but the brawniest dudes.

Demonstrate the tests on the lightest bike in the shop first, tell the customer how any bike should be strong enough to survive such tests, and if their bike doesn't, you've saved them from it failing underneath them. If the bike passes without making any creaks, it should be good to go, but you can't give the customer a guarantee; all they have is witnessing the frame withstand forces extreme enough to simulate pretty much anything it'll cop during a ride, and the decision to trust it is up to them. If it does creak, try to eliminate the usual suspects before testing again, because that's probably more likely than frame damage.

Even if the frame has visible damage, depending on how overbuilt it is, it could still be serviceable. I have an '08 Tarmac I scored for free because it has a bit of impact damage above the FD. There's a crack maybe half an inch long across the right side of the tube, but because it's a relatively heavy frame at 1.2kg, there's plenty of redundancy, and I can't get a sound out of it. Theoretically, stiffness is compromised, and asymmetrically at that, but it's undetectable via seat of the pants. Been riding it for years without any visible change in the crack.

Carbon is bloody strong stuff. If in doubt, try to break it. If you can't break it by hand using leverage and all your strength, do you think it's suddenly going to fail when you're riding it?
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Old 06-21-19, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimmo
I understand there are a number of high tech and quite expensive methods of investigating the structural integrity of composites, which provide more information for an engineer to make a theoretical assessment.

But someone without the inclination or means to afford such techniques can perform a practical assessment to a pretty reasonable degree of confidence, albeit insufficient for legal purposes.
Ultrasonic testing equipment isn't really that expensive. It's probably more than any LBS would want to spend, but for a framebuiolder (that also does repairs), It's really not that much.
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Old 06-21-19, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimmo
I understand there are a number of high tech and quite expensive methods of investigating the structural integrity of composites, which provide more information for an engineer to make a theoretical assessment.

But someone without the inclination or means to afford such techniques can perform a practical assessment to a pretty reasonable degree of confidence, albeit insufficient for legal purposes.



In addition to the usual visual and tap and squeeze inspection, do the following:
Put the front wheel against a wall and give it a shove. Lean the bike over with the brakes on and stand on each pedal, give it a bounce. Put both wheels against the base of a wall, a hand each on seat and stem, and twist the frame. Put both hands on the seat, bend over so your belly is resting on your hands, and shove down. Any bike worth half a damn, except perhaps a tiny handful of bespoke ultimate weight weenie machines, can easily withstand such tests from all but the brawniest dudes.

Demonstrate the tests on the lightest bike in the shop first, tell the customer how any bike should be strong enough to survive such tests, and if their bike doesn't, you've saved them from it failing underneath them. If the bike passes without making any creaks, it should be good to go, but you can't give the customer a guarantee; all they have is witnessing the frame withstand forces extreme enough to simulate pretty much anything it'll cop during a ride, and the decision to trust it is up to them. If it does creak, try to eliminate the usual suspects before testing again, because that's probably more likely than frame damage.

Even if the frame has visible damage, depending on how overbuilt it is, it could still be serviceable. I have an '08 Tarmac I scored for free because it has a bit of impact damage above the FD. There's a crack maybe half an inch long across the right side of the tube, but because it's a relatively heavy frame at 1.2kg, there's plenty of redundancy, and I can't get a sound out of it. Theoretically, stiffness is compromised, and asymmetrically at that, but it's undetectable via seat of the pants. Been riding it for years without any visible change in the crack.

Carbon is bloody strong stuff. If in doubt, try to break it. If you can't break it by hand using leverage and all your strength, do you think it's suddenly going to fail when you're riding it?
Do you think you can simulate the sort of forces a frame/fork would experience from hitting a substantial pot hole?
I don't think you could or would want to by the sort of tests you described, but yet this is exactly the sort of situation that you would expect your bike to withstand and not collapse beneath you.
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Old 06-22-19, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by carlos danger
And you are proud of this?

of course you should inspect frames. and charge the customer accordingly.

Sure you can only do a visual inpection, but you should still do it. Because if the "customer" comes to you he is even more clueless than you are.

And he is the person you make your money from!! so do you want to alienate your money stream?
If you are a professional shop and accept money for the inspection, I think you need to accept some liability it is fails.
Sounds reasonable not to inspect.
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Old 06-22-19, 03:08 PM
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Seems like a smart move to stay in business. Too much liability involved even if you don't have anything in writing, all I guy has to do is show a receipt that he paid for an inspection and state the bike shop stated it was okay to ride in court. That guy will own your business after the suit. More I read this thread about steel rusting through and carbon bikes failing, the more I gravitate towards Titanium as the best material for cycling. Brush Ti also looks better than carbon, painted steel/aluminum, etc. as well.
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Old 06-22-19, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by MyTi
Seems like a smart move to stay in business. Too much liability involved even if you don't have anything in writing, all I guy has to do is show a receipt that he paid for an inspection and state the bike shop stated it was okay to ride in court. That guy will own your business after the suit. More I read this thread about steel rusting through and carbon bikes failing, the more I gravitate towards Titanium as the best material for cycling. Brush Ti also looks better than carbon, painted steel/aluminum, etc. as well.
It seems though that the elephant in the room, is that the guy whose bike fails, seems would have to prove that it failed from damage that existed at the time of inspection and didn't occur some time after leaving the bike shop.
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Old 06-22-19, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
It seems though that the elephant in the room, is that the guy whose bike fails, seems would have to prove that it failed from damage that existed at the time of inspection and didn't occur some time after leaving the bike shop.
I am not sure that would be the case, necessarily. If one were to come in to have the front end checked for damage and then a week later the front end failed, it wouldn’t be a hard stretch to say the shop missed it. Civil cases have a lower bar of proof. More than likely, if the shop tried to say that the damage occurred after the inspection, they would have to somehow prove that through photos or something. Most insurance companies would rather not go to court, so they would more than likely go for an out of court settlement.
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Old 06-22-19, 11:33 PM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by Dean V
Do you think you can simulate the sort of forces a frame/fork would experience from hitting a substantial pot hole?
I don't think you could or would want to by the sort of tests you described, but yet this is exactly the sort of situation that you would expect your bike to withstand and not collapse beneath you.
Between shoving the front wheel against a wall and reefing down on the seat, I'd say that comes close to covering it.

Originally Posted by Doge
If you are a professional shop and accept money for the inspection, I think you need to accept some liability it is fails.
Sounds reasonable not to inspect.
Reasonable from one angle, but many folks will ask if there's an angle you can take that gives them at least part of what they came for. You can take some money for your time, but make it clear the decision to use the bike is up to the customer. You'd only be giving them something more to base their decision on, not pronouncing the bike sound.
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Old 06-23-19, 07:34 AM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by colnago62
I am not sure that would be the case, necessarily. If one were to come in to have the front end checked for damage and then a week later the front end failed, it wouldn’t be a hard stretch to say the shop missed it. Civil cases have a lower bar of proof. More than likely, if the shop tried to say that the damage occurred after the inspection, they would have to somehow prove that through photos or something. Most insurance companies would rather not go to court, so they would more than likely go for an out of court settlement.
I don't think so.. ie. the burden of proof resides with the accuser/plaintiff. In your scenario, the accuser would be asked to provide evidence that he/she for example, didn't possibly damage their own frame after inspection (eg. after running thru a deep pothole or whatnot). This is somewhat reminiscent of the JRA threads and warranty claims for frame failures from 'just riding around".
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Old 06-23-19, 09:08 AM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by Kimmo
...
Reasonable from one angle, but many folks will ask if there's an angle you can take that gives them at least part of what they came for. You can take some money for your time, but make it clear the decision to use the bike is up to the customer. You'd only be giving them something more to base their decision on, not pronouncing the bike sound.
My son's carbon bike frame cracked on the top tube. As far as I know he didn't ask a shop about it. But I can't think a shop would take a chance giving a minor advice about a safety issue.
Same for an adult - unless adult was willing to sign something saying they would not hold the shop liable for their opinion, which would still be risky I think, I'd avoid the issue.

I am not an attorney, not an attorney spokes person, but I have watched a bunch of Boston Legal before it got really weird.
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Old 06-23-19, 09:24 AM
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Timely and detailed response on carbon frame damage from Lennard Zinn. His point: you can’t visually inspect a carbon frame and know if it’s good.

https://www.velonews.com/2019/06/tec...storage_494508
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