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Old Skool Tubular glue user has Question about Tubular Tape

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Old Skool Tubular glue user has Question about Tubular Tape

Old 06-17-19, 10:13 AM
  #1  
cycledogg
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Old Skool Tubular glue user has Question about Tubular Tape

So I have been using glue to mount tubulars for over 20 years and have now thought about using tape. I plan to use Effetto Mariposa - Carogna Tubular Tape because I hear it is one of the best on the market. My question is, how hard is it to remove the tire? I have read that sometimes it can be easy, and other times it can be a pita. I plan on using the tape on my full carbon TT wheels for now. If all goes well, I may use it on my full carbon road wheels. Some say it can take off some of the tire bed of carbon wheels and also the base tape of the tire. I don't mind it being hard to remove the tire, but I have never had my glue process ruin a wheel or tire when removing.
Cheers
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Old 06-17-19, 05:03 PM
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Ahh - then you're lucky. With my glue jobs you'd be hard pressed to remove a tire and not destroy a piece of the basetape. It really depends on what school of though you came up in. Back a long time ago everyone just kind of slapped glue on and the tires were never really welded on to the rim. They were/are held in place but it a more "gooey" adhesion. Usually from using Continental glue, tubasti, etc. and/or using coats that are close together in time (not letting the base coats off gas or "cure" for hours or even a day between coats).

As you know you're fine doing it the way you've done it but for someone like me who is gluing hundreds a year and I can't have a single one roll...ever... I have found I have to go to the "welded on" technique. You can still remove tires in one piece but you have to be careful. Most of the pro mechanics I know are still gluing rapid coats making it easy to pull off the tire and re-use it.

The problems we had with the earlier glue tapes that were out there was that they just weren't strong enough and tended to lose adhesion if water penetrated them (TUFO comes to mind). The Carogna tape - I have not used it myself but plan on doing some tests this year because honestly - more people need to get back to riding tubulars and I don't have to try to be the only one gluing them anymore. The first pro mechanic that I ran across who had been given some to test was the mechanic for Jonathan Page for cross. He never used it for Page but he did try it on other wheels that were going into the UCI races. He put it on one rider's setup. This was about a year before she was named to the US team for Worlds so - not a slouch. I know her dad and so he kept letting me check out the glue over the season. It did really well. It was as good as either his or my glue jobs.

Your concern is legit. The style of gluing it will do is the solid style I mentioned above....if it sticks. I have reports of it just not doing a good job at all but honestly all of us that I know just chalk it up to really poor surface prep. I have used the tape remover from them on regular Mastik. I did a quick video on that here:

So in essence if you do a good application - clean surfaces free of any oil, etc then it can result in a hard glue bond like more modern tubular gluing. It will be a harder bond than what you are used to using your method of gluing. If that's a deal breaker then I would say stick to what you already know and do well. Hope that helps.
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Old 06-17-19, 06:18 PM
  #3  
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I have a related glue-tape question.

In case of a flat requiring roadside tire replacement, I carry a preglued spare, and I've used it on non-technical rides to get home.

My understanding is that the dry glue on the spare won't bond much with the dry glue on the rim much right away, so the main force holding the tire on is the pressure. Get a second flat, and the tire may roll off.

This is concerning on a technical ride, and I wondered if adding tape and then mounting the spare would give a better immediate bond?
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Old 06-17-19, 07:40 PM
  #4  
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Originally Posted by cycledogg View Post
So I have been using glue to mount tubulars for over 20 years and have now thought about using tape. I plan to use Effetto Mariposa - Carogna Tubular Tape because I hear it is one of the best on the market. My question is, how hard is it to remove the tire? I have read that sometimes it can be easy, and other times it can be a pita. I plan on using the tape on my full carbon TT wheels for now. If all goes well, I may use it on my full carbon road wheels. Some say it can take off some of the tire bed of carbon wheels and also the base tape of the tire. I don't mind it being hard to remove the tire, but I have never had my glue process ruin a wheel or tire when removing.
Cheers
Iíve been using the Carogna Tubular tape since it came out. It takes a little work/elbow grease to get the tire started off the rim (opposing the valve) but once itís started it gets much easier. Sometimes a slim tire level is helpful to sort of rub/cut the glue as you roll the tire off the rim but thatís only to get it started. To be clear here, Iím not saying dig at the rim but to expose the glue by rolling the tire to the size and then using the tire level to help break that bond. So youíre using the lever on the glue and not the rim.

It can take off the base tape of the tire but it has never ever damaged the rim. I donít think itís a chemical bond but strictly a mechanical one. I like the stuff, itís all I use. Fast, easy and solid at least in my experience. Iím not racing either but I have no worried about it rolling off the rim - itís definitely on there.

J.
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Old 06-17-19, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
Ahh - then you're lucky. With my glue jobs you'd be hard pressed to remove a tire and not destroy a piece of the basetape. It really depends on what school of though you came up in. Back a long time ago everyone just kind of slapped glue on and the tires were never really welded on to the rim. They were/are held in place but it a more "gooey" adhesion. Usually from using Continental glue, tubasti, etc. and/or using coats that are close together in time (not letting the base coats off gas or "cure" for hours or even a day between coats).

As you know you're fine doing it the way you've done it but for someone like me who is gluing hundreds a year and I can't have a single one roll...ever... I have found I have to go to the "welded on" technique. You can still remove tires in one piece but you have to be careful. Most of the pro mechanics I know are still gluing rapid coats making it easy to pull off the tire and re-use it.

The problems we had with the earlier glue tapes that were out there was that they just weren't strong enough and tended to lose adhesion if water penetrated them (TUFO comes to mind). The Carogna tape - I have not used it myself but plan on doing some tests this year because honestly - more people need to get back to riding tubulars and I don't have to try to be the only one gluing them anymore. The first pro mechanic that I ran across who had been given some to test was the mechanic for Jonathan Page for cross. He never used it for Page but he did try it on other wheels that were going into the UCI races. He put it on one rider's setup. This was about a year before she was named to the US team for Worlds so - not a slouch. I know her dad and so he kept letting me check out the glue over the season. It did really well. It was as good as either his or my glue jobs.

Your concern is legit. The style of gluing it will do is the solid style I mentioned above....if it sticks. I have reports of it just not doing a good job at all but honestly all of us that I know just chalk it up to really poor surface prep. I have used the tape remover from them on regular Mastik. I did a quick video on that here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyWDh12ypos

So in essence if you do a good application - clean surfaces free of any oil, etc then it can result in a hard glue bond like more modern tubular gluing. It will be a harder bond than what you are used to using your method of gluing. If that's a deal breaker then I would say stick to what you already know and do well. Hope that helps.
Thanks for the insight. FYI: My "old skool" glue procedure is what I also call 24/12/12. Clean the rim as good as possible, I prefer as-new surface, then apply the first thin coat on the rim and let dry 24 hours. Second coat as thin and also apply one thin coat to base of tire, let dry 12 hours. Last coat on rim, and tire, mount while wet. Center tire, inflate to approximately 60 psi. Roll wheel to mesh tire/rim together. Dry 12 hours. Vittoria Mastik. Removing tire was never easy. Never had a roll off. I just was thinking of using tape for a change.
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Old 06-17-19, 10:43 PM
  #6  
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Tape is a mess. I do not glue as well as I can - on purpose. I like to save the tire. There are ways to get the tire off without loosing the base tape with a tube rolling technique. Also a pain - see below.
When I glued for cobbles I did the Belgium glue job - thick center, let it break and re-bond and roll. Tape might be good for that. But the stuff is awfully hard to get off and weighs more, and is just sloppier/extra squish. I started using tubulars about '79. I use them now on the tandem and kid's racing setups - lotsa wheels. I glue a bit differently on application and use different glues. Mastic 1 pretty much covers the road and track well, but tacky is useful for CX and cobbles.

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Old 06-17-19, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by f4rrest View Post
I have a related glue-tape question.

In case of a flat requiring roadside tire replacement, I carry a preglued spare, and I've used it on non-technical rides to get home.

My understanding is that the dry glue on the spare won't bond much with the dry glue on the rim much right away, so the main force holding the tire on is the pressure. Get a second flat, and the tire may roll off.

This is concerning on a technical ride, and I wondered if adding tape and then mounting the spare would give a better immediate bond?



Not sure what kind of technical ride you are talking about, but your concern seems way out there.

If the spare flatted, you're no worse off than every clincher rider out there, & I don't think they are losing sleep.

I had that happen once- rode through a flooded spot & side-wall cut the spare. Call of shame, but that's it.

You have to try pretty hard to roll even an unglued tubular, IMO.
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Old 06-18-19, 09:36 AM
  #8  
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I started using Carogna tape about three years ago and I will never go back to glue. Enough said.
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Old 06-18-19, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by cycledogg View Post
Thanks for the insight. FYI: My "old skool" glue procedure is what I also call 24/12/12. Clean the rim as good as possible, I prefer as-new surface, then apply the first thin coat on the rim and let dry 24 hours. Second coat as thin and also apply one thin coat to base of tire, let dry 12 hours. Last coat on rim, and tire, mount while wet. Center tire, inflate to approximately 60 psi. Roll wheel to mesh tire/rim together. Dry 12 hours. Vittoria Mastik. Removing tire was never easy. Never had a roll off. I just was thinking of using tape for a change.
Then your gluing is more similar to what we do. I still do 2 coats rim and 2 tire and 24 hrs between each. 1 wet mounting coat (thickish) only on the rim. I have the luxury of having a lot of rims laying around so the tires get placed back on a rim and stretched again just before mounting. Stretches the base tape and creates gaps in the dried glue that allow the fresh glue on the rim to seep into those gaps and makes for a great bond.

Mounting - I mount and pump to compressor max (88-110 psi) as that usually helps straighten the molded tubulars like Donnelley, then straighten and roll under load. Then I deflate the tire all the way, roll it on a broom handle that one of my employees labeled as "Special tubular rolling device Not a broom" then back up to 40-60 psi overnight for a cure.

All that's great but if a racer flats and needs a new tire for the race the next day it's the euro style of light coats and moving from one to the other with about 6 minutes of cure time in between. It sticks and stays but isn't nearly as hard.

I don't know what tone you're taking all this with but I assure you I'm not sitting here assuming you don't know what you're doing or that you're doing it wrong. Too many people in this sport do that when it comes to tubulars. It's like this old school of knowledge and everyone thinks their way is the only way and that's just not right - as you know.

The tape will produce more of the bond like what you have. The tape is really nothing more than regular mastik with a different solvent or additives. It acts like regular mastik. Treat it like regular mastik and I believe you'll be really happy with the results. I may be moving a lot of my operation that way....with a few more years of trials.

See when you glue your own and never have a problem you have confidence. When you glue hundreds for others that race and depend on your glue job to keep them from serious injury, etc. then your business is your reputation and your reputation is only good until 1 rolls. Out of the roughly 1,000 we've glued in the last 10 or so years I know of 5 or 6 that have rolled. I have done a "post mortem" on every one I could to ascertain a cause. That's how I discovered that Mastik varies widely between batches. Heat in transport greatly affects it (buy Mastik direct from Vittoria when they are working off stock they received in the colder months). We treat it like it has a shelf life and eliminate that to a great extent. We buff the base tape on almost all tires to clean them and eliminate any dirt or oil. We strip latex from basetape completely. It greatly reduces our ability to remove a tire and not destroy the base tape but that one time you have a rider go down and their fiance looks at you with terror in their eyes and asks, "what did you do?!" can cause you to reflect on your technique. A lot.

There's some studies out there. Best one is really old at this point and I was hoping to re-create it using modern techniques. The information about what works and how well shouldn't be out of reach of a quick internet search.
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Old 06-18-19, 12:24 PM
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I use both the Effetto Mariposa tape and regular glue. The tape is much easier and faster, but it weighs slightly more, and has more thickness, making the tire sit higher on the rim. The Effetto Mariposa is supposedly good enough for cx, it's likely overkill for road use.

Removing taped tires is much faster than glued

I have taped a flat tire roadside, but I think taping would be at least as good as slapping on a preglued tub. Not many flats using Effetto Mariposa latex sealant, until the tire gets worn thin.
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Old 06-18-19, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by f4rrest View Post
I have a related glue-tape question.

In case of a flat requiring roadside tire replacement, I carry a preglued spare, and I've used it on non-technical rides to get home.

My understanding is that the dry glue on the spare won't bond much with the dry glue on the rim much right away, so the main force holding the tire on is the pressure. Get a second flat, and the tire may roll off.

This is concerning on a technical ride, and I wondered if adding tape and then mounting the spare would give a better immediate bond?
There is another option - if you’re worried about flatting. There are tubeless tubulars from Tufo and Donnelly/Clement that can be filled with sealant and repaired with a plug system (Dynaplug etc...) like clincher tubeless. Not only would this be less likely to flat, the repair can be on the order of <1min for most repairs and not require removing the tire from the rim.

J.
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Old 06-19-19, 06:51 AM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by kansukee View Post
I started using Carogna tape about three years ago and I will never go back to glue. Enough said.


This sums it up for me too.
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Old 06-19-19, 08:53 AM
  #13  
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I use Carogna. In Hawaii I couldn't find glue in bike shops and no one will ship it to HI individual users. At least on carbon rim removing the tire the tape stays on the tire and leaves the rim clean. Getting the tape off the tire is a bit of a chore. I do have a rear that I removed the tape from the tire and now retaped it on an alloy rim with no issues. I haven't had to pull it yet but assume no difference from my carbon experience. I use plastic tire lever to get the tire started for removal. It's on there pretty good.

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Old 06-19-19, 09:53 AM
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Never gluing tubulars... Ever again.
I wondered about tape a few years ago and found the video below. Everything he said made a lot of sense to me.
I watched his other videos and a lot of things he said made a lot of sense to me.
I then went even further and bought a tubular set from him. Best wheels I've ever owned, insanely light and still use it to this day.

Anyway I digress. He sends his own tape he got custom made at 3M when you buy a wheel off of him. He doesn't sell tape to overseas from AU otherwise since shipping costs are stupid.
Before I bought wheels off of him, I asked him which tape he'd recommend since I can't get tapes off him. He said Carogna is the only one he can recommend. Used with my tubulars at the time with great success.
Then once I got my Caden wheels, I started using their tape. Both amazing tapes and had absolutely 0 issues in the last 3 years.

Perfectly straight tires every time. Smooth ride. No mess. You can ride same day you mount tire (12 hours wait is still safest even with tape). I lost grip descending on a turn and went down at 40mph couple years ago. Tires will give out grip way sooner than tape can fail.
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Old 06-19-19, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
There is another option - if youíre worried about flatting. There are tubeless tubulars from Tufo and Donnelly/Clement that can be filled with sealant and repaired with a plug system (Dynaplug etc...) like clincher tubeless. Not only would this be less likely to flat, the repair can be on the order of <1min for most repairs and not require removing the tire from the rim.
Whoah. I could just about fap to that.

Not a fan of tubeless generally; the mess, the hassle of mounting a new tyre, the goop slopping around inside, hardening into skanky chunks...

But given the sizeable PITA associated with tubular flats, sealant looks a lot better in that context already, and what's that you say? A TYRE THAT CAN BE FIXED ON THE RIM? Dude!

That's just about enough of a reason to go tubular on its own!

My only reservation is, what can you do about hardened sealant? I don't suppose there's a solvent that'll work...?
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Old 06-19-19, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by gurk700 View Post
the video below
He makes a pretty compelling point about getting the tyre on straight and even before peeling the backing out... that advantage alone is very attractive. Even with practice, I've found it a bit hit or miss; rarely do I mount a tubular as nicely as any half-decent clincher looks. Mucking around with ripping the fresh bond apart and hauling the tyre this way and that is tiring and not entirely effective.

And as for damaging carbon rims from pulling off tyres, why the hell is anyone making rims without a twill ply in the tyre bed? Carbon rims cost an arm and a leg - surely a relatively tiny increase in production cost is justified if it'll prevent premature failure. It should be bloody well de rigueur.
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Old 06-19-19, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
He makes a pretty compelling point about getting the tyre on straight and even before peeling the backing out... that advantage alone is very attractive. Even with practice, I've found it a bit hit or miss; rarely do I mount a tubular as nicely as any half-decent clincher looks. Mucking around with ripping the fresh bond apart and hauling the tyre this way and that is tiring and not entirely effective.

And as for damaging carbon rims from pulling off tyres, why the hell is anyone making rims without a twill ply in the tyre bed? Carbon rims cost an arm and a leg - surely a relatively tiny increase in production cost is justified if it'll prevent premature failure. It should be bloody well de rigueur.
Yeah man. I don't claim to have a lot of experience with gluing (did it maybe 10 times total?) but I got them on pretty close to perfect... Or so I thought... The first time I taped I knew how it should have been all along
I'm sure it's possible in the hands of an experience rider but the hassle of cleaning glue off the rim next time you put tires on makes it just not worth it to me. I know a lot of people just glue on top of old dry glue but that's a no go for me. I used to make the rim spotless / brand new looking before I put new glue on. Which took... Forever.

Anyway... Yeah tape for life!
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Old 06-20-19, 06:40 AM
  #18  
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I stopped using glue and have been using Tufo tape since about 2004 and have not had any of the mentioned problems with it coming loose, particularly if the tire is inflated Super easy to use and I use it on my Boyd carbon wheels. I think that the tape is called Extreme Tape. Tufo even makes a glue remover to clean the rim surface completely. I have not used the other stuff mentioned in this thread.
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Old 06-20-19, 06:51 AM
  #19  
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If you time trial, and it is a setup meant for a race.........tape is a non-starter. Glue. There are both online swaths of data and a local guy who has done extensive roller testing that determined that a competent glue job is faster. A not so competent or sloppy glue job is probably equal or slower to tape.

Otherwise, I wouldn't bother with tubs at all if I was using tape. I may as well sell it all and go to clinchers/tubeless.

I glue mine using the Vittoria glue according to the Vittoria instructions and I can get them off by hand in a few minutes or with help of a tire lever to "gut the deer" around the edge then work it off. Usually they come off reusable.

Just in my opinion molded by local time trial gurus much smarter than I am.
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Old 06-20-19, 08:50 AM
  #20  
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~$7/wheel and no glue on the rim to help the spare stick

keep the tape at bay for me.
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Old 06-20-19, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
Whoah. I could just about fap to that.

Not a fan of tubeless generally; the mess, the hassle of mounting a new tyre, the goop slopping around inside, hardening into skanky chunks...

But given the sizeable PITA associated with tubular flats, sealant looks a lot better in that context already, and what's that you say? A TYRE THAT CAN BE FIXED ON THE RIM? Dude!

That's just about enough of a reason to go tubular on its own!

My only reservation is, what can you do about hardened sealant? I don't suppose there's a solvent that'll work...?
Well, I generally wear out a rear tire about every 1500 miles or so. In that time, typically there is still plenty of sealant.

Depending on the sealant, and if you’re riding frequently, it tends to be pretty much a coating on the tube (this, from my tubeless experience with clinchers). I’ve been using Orange endurance and it seems to last most of the season for me and I haven’t had it concentrated in one spot in the tire. If you’re riding frequently, then there will be no problem.

There are also syringes that you can use for tubeless clinchers that would allow you to remove the sealant from the tires (or at least most of it) if you weren’t going to ride for a time. All the tubeless tubulars have removable valves in order to add sealant in the first place. So let the tires sit for a less than a week in the same orientation (valve down) so the sealant pools in the bottom just under the valve. Take the valve out and suck out any remaining liquid or at least most of it.

Since I’ve been riding tubeless tubulars for the last 10 years, I’ve gone from 6-8 punctures with tubed clinchers per 3000 miles to less than one. I far and away tend to wear the tires out down to the threads without a flat.

I’ve been using the Donnelly/Clement ones in 25mm for several years now. They ride well and work well for me. I’d really like it if they went to a 27mm or so. That would be pretty plush.

As far as puncture repair, I’ve been using DynaPlug and it has worked well on my clinchers. There is even a version that allows you to air up the tire through the puncture before you leave the plug in place. Doesn’t get much easier than that.
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